jdw Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 If I remember correctly, Ric Flair said in his book that Billy Robinson was the guy who actually trained Flair and the rest of his class at Verne's camp. I think even in the case of Billy that it's somewhat doubtful. He was working pretty fulltime in the period that Flair went into training up to his debut. The AWA was a massive territory: Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota, Wyoming, Colorado, Iowa and Manitoba. He also made five trips to Hawaii with kind of nutty turn around times. Look at a nutty example of travel: 12/25/1971 Minneapolis, MN 12/26/1971 Milwaukee, WI 12/27/1971 Denver, CO 12/28/1971 Duluth, MN 12/29/1971 Minot, ND 12/30/1971 Fargo, ND Again, not saying he wasn't involved or that he played an important role. But... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 So we shouldn't believe the stories from Steamboat and Iron Sheik about Verne having them climb up the steps with just their arms? And all the other stuff that has been peddled over the years? Sheik's been lying for years. Are you really offering him up as a witness for the reality? As far as Ricky, is there anything in what he's said over the years that Verne was there every day leading training? The reality is with most schools (surely) is that there are going to be multiple guys involved in the actual training. Maybe Verne one day, maybe Robinson the next. Or maybe Verne did fitness and Robinson did mat skills. Or whatever. Who knows? I believe that was my point: full credit if often given to one "trainer" when that person might not even be regularly involved in the training. Or worse: full credit is given to multiple "trainers" for one wrestler, so that we end up with 300% of the credit for training Ric Flair being handed out to Verne, Billy and Josh Klemme. Verne certainly gets credited with training an awful lot of people though, probably because it was called the "Verne Gagne Wrestling School". Just a guess: it wasn't even called "The Verne Gagne Wrestling School". It was just the AWA trying to train some new talent, seeing who made the cut and was worth more time. Over time it's been dubbed the Verne Gagne Wrestling School. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_Observer_Newsletter_Hall_of_Fame Managing, Commentating and so on are treated differently I'd have to go back and look at the 1996 HOF issue to see if we even cared to treat them differently. They were just HOFers. "Managers" don't even exist anymore in WON-speak. Dave killed it off in 1997, then came up with "Non-Wrestler" in 1999 in light of Mr. McMahon. It's what Heyman is currently winning. They are Performers. It's what Hennan was, and what Cornette was, and what Heyman is now. They are closer to the other performers (Wrestlers and PBP/Color) than they are the bookers and promoters. Sure... we could go nutty 1. Wrestlers 2. Managers / Non-Wrestlers who aren't PBP/Color 3. PBP/Color 4. Bookers 5. Promoters 6. Other Important Office Guys Who Aren't Promoters/Bookers 7. Trainers So we can go all nutty finding someone who did The Septuple. But really, 1-3 are in the same boat, while 4-6 are in the same boat, and 7 is kinda-sorta in the same bucket as 4-6 since they often have been tied to promotions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Every board needs a guy like you. So glad you're here bud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Manager and PBP/Commentator would be with Wrestler in the Performer group. That's not true though is it? Lance Russell doesn't go in the same category as Jerry Lawler does he? I thought there was a non-wrestler section of the ballot. There are two types of HOF's on the current Ballot: Wrestlers Non-Wrestlers The wrestlers are broken down into Regions. I'm trying to be more realistic to what Jim Cornette did with the Midnight Express, and what Hennan did with The Family and also when sitting next to Monsoon: they were Performers. They didn't do what Vince did behind the scenes, or what Sam Muschnick did, or what Paul Bowser did. They were part of the "show". Dave doesn't really think things through like that. Of course... there would be fewer Managers and PBP/Commentator guys in the HOF if they had to compete with Wrestlers for votes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Every board needs a guy like you. So glad you're here bud. You're hitting your average: two shots at me already in this thread. I think I'm up to exactly zero shots at you this calendar year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Where would Eddie Graham rank in this debate? I brought the idea of this thread up in a Verne thread on another board, and Eddie was mentioned as being a possible candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Eddie Graham was a tremendous influence on a number of guys, but how involved was he with training? Genuinely curious as I have no idea. Seems like a good surface candidate based on the other two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Nobuhiko Takada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSR Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Every board needs a guy like you. So glad you're here bud. Grow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Yeah because a patronising break down of all of the different functions in wrestling and how they all actually just two broad types is exactly what this thread needed. Who's being childish? I ask about trifecta candidates, that passive-aggressive boring fuck's instincts are to move to try to deny the theoretical possibllity of a trifecta candidate by reducing the categories to just two. Brilliant end of conversation. Great contribution! Just like your post there. It's a disguised form of trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Eddie Graham was a tremendous influence on a number of guys, but how involved was he with training? Genuinely curious as I have no idea. Neither do I, really, but the name makes sense on a base level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 It's a disguised form of trolling. On a Williams scale of 1-10, this thread is about a 1. Honestly, I think the Kawada picture and those three initials are like a red rag to a bull right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Seems like something didn't copy over here because unless you saw the original conversation you have no idea who is even being talked about in the first post. On the other topic at hand, I think this board needs to just institute an ignore feature so JVK can just not even see jdw anymore. Would have also been good for when everyone started piling on iamthedoctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Satanico should get in as a wrestler, a trainer, and a guy in awesome satanic skits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 On Graham, there's a case where you think of Matsuda more as the trainer. I think promoting and booking are two really different skillsets and Graham would surely qualify for both, but I can understand the obvious reasons for not wanting to separate those two things out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I'm tossing Bob Geigel's name out there just to hear what people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 What's Giegel's third string after wrestler and promoter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 He trained Murdoch and Ox Baker? And Eddie Sharkey, apparently, which creates a weird sort of family tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 How about Rikidozan? He was Japan's first star in-ring performer. He created the first promotion in the country. He trained Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Farmer Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I've talked extensively about this subject with Buddy Rose who was in Verne's 73' camp. He always praised Verne as a trainer and that he was there nearly every day and if the boys were doing a work out he would join in. He was very hands on, but he wasn't able to be there everyday. During his camp he would have Billy Robinson, Lars Anderson and Iron Sheik helping out. As for Stu Hart, I've heard just the opposite in that he was less hands on and relied on his Japanese boys to do most of the day to day training. Of course he would go down and stretch the boys, but he wasn't showing them how to bump. Wrestling training was MUCH different in the 60's, 70's and 80's than it is today. Most trainers did not expose the business, so there was no talk or hint of training that had anything to do with learning about psychology, or working. You were taught how to bump in most cases (but not all) and how to get in and out of holds. You learned how to work once you got on the road. Rose and Slaughter both told me they were never smartened up, and there were no clues that the business was a work until the day of their first match together. Buddy had been around the business for a long time helping with the ring truck and as an usher and hanger on and knew something was up, even knew the boys talked to each other while wrestling. But didn't truly know until that day. But from talking with many I would say Verne deserves more credit for training than Stu Hart. Now on the subject of trifecta besides both Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba who should get as much or more credit than a Stu Hart because they DID go to the dojo and workout a lot. And while they were not full time dojo trainers their presence was there often and when the young boys went on the road they often worked out with them. Both Baba and Inoki would take one of the young boys and that young boy was now their personal servant. To me one of the top guys who are that trifecta would be Rikidozan. He was definitely a Hall of Fame wrestler and promoter, and just look at the list of his students that include both Baba and Inoki, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Farmer Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I'm tossing Bob Geigel's name out there just to hear what people think. He's not a Hall of Fame wrestler, nor is he a Hall of Fame promoter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Farmer Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Nobuhiko Takada. If Takada then Akira Maeda should get in first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 What about Paul Heyman? Hall of fame booker? Yes. Hall of fame promoter? Probably. Hall of fame manager? I guess. Hall of fame commentator? Maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I've talked extensively about this subject with Buddy Rose who was in Verne's 73' camp. He always praised Verne as a trainer and that he was there nearly every day and if the boys were doing a work out he would join in. He was very hands on, but he wasn't able to be there everyday. During his camp he would have Billy Robinson, Lars Anderson and Iron Sheik helping out. As for Stu Hart, I've heard just the opposite in that he was less hands on and relied on his Japanese boys to do most of the day to day training. Of course he would go down and stretch the boys, but he wasn't showing them how to bump. Wrestling training was MUCH different in the 60's, 70's and 80's than it is today. Most trainers did not expose the business, so there was no talk or hint of training that had anything to do with learning about psychology, or working. You were taught how to bump in most cases (but not all) and how to get in and out of holds. You learned how to work once you got on the road. Rose and Slaughter both told me they were never smartened up, and there were no clues that the business was a work until the day of their first match together. Buddy had been around the business for a long time helping with the ring truck and as an usher and hanger on and knew something was up, even knew the boys talked to each other while wrestling. But didn't truly know until that day. But from talking with many I would say Verne deserves more credit for training than Stu Hart. Now on the subject of trifecta besides both Antonio Inoki and Giant Baba who should get as much or more credit than a Stu Hart because they DID go to the dojo and workout a lot. And while they were not full time dojo trainers their presence was there often and when the young boys went on the road they often worked out with them. Both Baba and Inoki would take one of the young boys and that young boy was now their personal servant. To me one of the top guys who are that trifecta would be Rikidozan. He was definitely a Hall of Fame wrestler and promoter, and just look at the list of his students that include both Baba and Inoki, Really great info, Matt, thanks a lot! You wonder how Verne found the time with working an active in-ring schedule and running AWA. Pretty amazing guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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