Women in the WWE

[Dylan Waco]

 

 

 

 

 

Not to be a dick, but I'm gonna bow out of this argument.

 

We are just arguing opinions and you don't have anything to back up your side any more than I do. I don't think that the women's division is some great untapped draw. I think they should book it better but I don't think it's going to have much of an effect on the bottom line. You think it will. That's fine.

That's fine, but saying that women should be treated as a side show attraction (like minis) because they never drew, when they were never put into a position to draw seems ridiculous to me.

 

Ok since MY opinion is "ridiculous" exactly why are the women indisputably a better draw than minis? Kids make up a big part of the wrestling audience too and I'm more inclined to believe that trying to draw kids is a better way to make money than trying to draw women. There is a whole lot more evidence that kids will tune in to a wrestling show in large numbers than women will.

 

What can you actually bring to the table for your side of this argument other than "it works in NXT" and I "I think more women will watch"?

 

Children and minis are not the same. Minis are small men, not children.

 

It works in NXT and joshi was huge in Japan when it was a hugely pushed thing. What other reason would you need to try?

 

5 years ago, yeah, there wasn't the talent. Now, you have Sasha and Charlotte who you can build around.

 

Thank you for talking to me like I'm a fucking idiot. I did not know that kids and minis are not the same. I thought it was some slick thing Mexican promoters were doing to get around child labor laws.

 

Also why are you now bringing joshi into the argument when you dismissed SHIMMER earlier because it's "completely a women's promotion"?

 

Stage. AJW had a WWE level of stage. SHIMMER is an indie.

 

 

AJW really didn't have a WWE level stage.

 

Shimmer is an indie but are they big for an indie? Not really. In fact when you consider how long they have been around it's pretty amazing how little growth they have had. Also how many Shimmer fans are women? I know they have some diehard female fans, but watching their shows it doesn't strike me that the audiences are even close to as well distributed between the sexes as WWE shows currently are. Why is that?

[(BP)]

Part of me thinks that the audience they can draw in with Total Divas is at odds with the audience they could draw in by focusing on Bayley and also with the audience they could draw in with Sasha Banks workrate classics. That's either part of the problem or can be presented as part of the problem by conservative elements inside the company who don't want change.

I think this is pretty much it. The only thing I can envision working is two simultaneous programs, one involving a Total Divas/catty feud and another being a workrate feud based around competitiveness. That would mean at least twice as much time for the women, so it probably won't happen.

[Russellmania]

man going back to the typical WWE portrayal of women on RAW after that NXT show is such a jarring transition.

[Parties]

• Charlotte isn't a total package talent yet. Only woman they have who is one is Sasha and maybe Alicia Fox, who they dropped as quickly as they pushed her in a one month “crazy chick” angle. Lynch and Bayley are in the zone, but it remains to be seen how big they can get. I'd be into Banks as the Rock, someone like Lynch, Charlotte, or even Emma as a mudhole-stomping babyface, and Bayley as the Mick Foley who main events but remains an affable comedy figure.

• If they even realize what they have in Banks, it's happened very recently. For all we know they could be having meetings about strapping the rocket to her. Rarely in WWE history do they recognize a major talent until long after the fans have demanded it. Recently crowds have had to stage outright coups. Mgmt. tends to be either behind their own curve or very conservative, depending on how you look at it. All the stuff you hear about not wanting anyone to get too over applies here. No one is allowed to be bigger than the brand, which kills opportunities to make stars.

• Paige looked pretty great in NXT too, and we've seen what happens when you become just another pawn moved around 6-7 hours of main roster TV each week. I would hate to see Banks stuck having three matches a week with Brie Bella, which is the nature of the beast right now.

• Listen to that the promo Lana just cut tonight to turn face. That was the most generic language you could use to impart ideas of independence and empowerment. It had all the right nouns of progress, but does anyone talk like that? Is it storytelling that people get behind, especially when it all just concludes with the prize of making out with Ziggler? Whether Steph had a hand in that or it came from writers pandering to her, I cannot say. But stuff like that can either be just universal enough to work, or come off as very phony. It worked in front of that crowd for Lana, but if that was coming out of Charlotte's mouth every week I suspect it would flop.

• All of this ignores Vince and Dunn's clear misogyny over the years, which cannot be overstated. Steph to her credit seems to recognize the need for change, but she's not writing the show week to week. Most of the Divas tonight appeared as giggly flirts swooning over the Entourage scrubs.

To answer the original question: there's no good reason they can't headline PPVs, and it should happen. But we all know the reasons why it isn't currently happening, as it would require a very stubborn 70 year old man to change 30 years of bad habits.

[Grimmas]

Dylan said

 

 

Shimmer is an indie but are they big for an indie? Not really. In fact when you consider how long they have been around it's pretty amazing how little growth they have had. Also how many Shimmer fans are women? I know they have some diehard female fans, but watching their shows it doesn't strike me that the audiences are even close to as well distributed between the sexes as WWE shows currently are. Why is that?

 

I don't have answers for these questions. SHIMMER is a small indie who runs shows like once every 3 months and only put out dvds and maybe ippvs.

 

Comparing that to the WWE seems very difficult to me.

[BillThompson]

I'm a big fan of women's wrestling, mainly because it can be, and most of the time is, no different than male wrestling. There are great female wrestlers, mediocre female wrestlers, and bad female wrestlers. They put on great matches, bad matches, and matches you'll forget about two minutes after they end. They can easily main event, and I think they could easily become stars and draws. It all comes down to conditioning the fans. That is wrestling in a nutshell; whether we're talking about a new star, a new style, a gimmick, or women wrestlers the crowd will accept them if they are conditioned to accept them. It is true that with the current power base in WWE that reconditioning won't be happening anytime soon, but the fans could be conditioned to accept women's wrestling as legt and as just as important to the show as any other element.

 

And now is the time to do it; in WWE and NXT there are more talented women wrestlers than ever. They range from best in the world to pretty decent, but a division consisting of Sasha Banks, Becky Lynch, Paige, Nikki Bella, Naomi, Alicia Fox, Emma, Bayley, Natalya, Charlotte, and Alexa Bliss as your starting points should be able to succeed in every possible way if the fans are conditioned to accept them.

[WingedEagle]

I'm a big fan of women's wrestling, mainly because it can be, and most of the time is, no different than male wrestling. There are great female wrestlers, mediocre female wrestlers, and bad female wrestlers. They put on great matches, bad matches, and matches you'll forget about two minutes after they end. They can easily main event, and I think they could easily become stars and draws. It all comes down to conditioning the fans. That is wrestling in a nutshell; whether we're talking about a new star, a new style, a gimmick, or women wrestlers the crowd will accept them if they are conditioned to accept them. It is true that with the current power base in WWE that reconditioning won't be happening anytime soon, but the fans could be conditioned to accept women's wrestling as legt and as just as important to the show as any other element.

 

And now is the time to do it; in WWE and NXT there are more talented women wrestlers than ever. They range from best in the world to pretty decent, but a division consisting of Sasha Banks, Becky Lynch, Paige, Nikki Bella, Naomi, Alicia Fox, Emma, Bayley, Natalya, Charlotte, and Alexa Bliss as your starting points should be able to succeed in every possible way if the fans are conditioned to accept them.

 

I agree there is an opportunity to make female performers into legit draws and a significant, featured part of the product. But at the end of the day I don't think that will in any material way change the gender breakdown of wrestling's audience.

[GOTNW]

Right now, it just isn't worth it. The women they have on the main roster are, at best, mediocre workers and every time they have been given a platform to create something noteworthy they have failed. Unforunately, WWE's stance on women in general has many inherent problems that won't be fixed by the time they call up the NXT bunch that is good enough to potentially headline.

[BillThompson]

Right now, it just isn't worth it. The women they have on the main roster are, at best, mediocre workers and every time they have been given a platform to create something noteworthy they have failed. Unforunately, WWE's stance on women in general has many inherent problems that won't be fixed by the time they call up the NXT bunch that is good enough to potentially headline.

 

Natalya, Paige, Naomi, Nikki Bella, and Alicia Fox all range from decent to really good workers. Even on the main roster the talent is present; it all comes back to presentation and conditioning of the audience.

[Wade Garrett]

As far as the Women are concerned I don't know about a main event spot on a ppv. I do think by presenting them better on Mondays by allowing them to have better matches could gradually lead to giving them a larger roll or main event on Thursdays to test the waters. Being they tape the Thursday show on Tuesdays if they have a well received match they have two days to promote that match via .com, app, twitter, etc. as a much watch match. I don't know. I'm not a pro wrestling promoter and have never worked in that business.

 

If I'm not mistaken don't HHH and Stephanie have daughters? I would think that would lead to them wanting Women to have equal opportunities in todays society. Then again I guess it's not for them to make that decision with Papa still sitting at the head of the table.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

Vince McMahon has a daughter, too.

[Matt D]

i think what we're seeing is that Stephanie does want strong role models for her kids and to promote them.

 

As long as they're in MMA and not wrestling.

[Wade Garrett]

I know Vince has a daughter who he obviously has groomed in regards to the family business. However Vince comes from a very different era in time too.

[GOTNW]

 

Right now, it just isn't worth it. The women they have on the main roster are, at best, mediocre workers and every time they have been given a platform to create something noteworthy they have failed. Unforunately, WWE's stance on women in general has many inherent problems that won't be fixed by the time they call up the NXT bunch that is good enough to potentially headline.

 

Natalya, Paige, Naomi, Nikki Bella, and Alicia Fox all range from decent to really good workers. Even on the main roster the talent is present; it all comes back to presentation and conditioning of the audience.

 

None of them are really good workers. Nikki Bella hasn't done anything memorable ever except throw a solid forearm which somehow now makes her a good worker around here, Naomi is average, Paige, Natalya and Alicia Fox have shown some glimpses of quality but compared to their overall output it would be equivalent to calling Kofi Kingston a really good worker.

[goc]

EDIT:Nevermind. Wasn't that funny and not worth a derail.

[Matt D]

This is also a company (and that goes to Steph and the divas too) that presents Fabulous Moolah as this amazing pinnacle to be admired, and not just in ring, but as a person.

 

I think Steph delivered her eulogy.

[Badlittlekitten]

 

 

Right now, it just isn't worth it. The women they have on the main roster are, at best, mediocre workers and every time they have been given a platform to create something noteworthy they have failed. Unforunately, WWE's stance on women in general has many inherent problems that won't be fixed by the time they call up the NXT bunch that is good enough to potentially headline.

 

Natalya, Paige, Naomi, Nikki Bella, and Alicia Fox all range from decent to really good workers. Even on the main roster the talent is present; it all comes back to presentation and conditioning of the audience.

None of them are really good workers. Nikki Bella hasn't done anything memorable ever except throw a solid forearm which somehow now makes her a good worker around here, Naomi is average, Paige, Natalya and Alicia Fox have shown some glimpses of quality but compared to their overall output it would be equivalent to calling Kofi Kingston a really good worker.

 

 

Exactly. Seems like if a diva goes a match or two without doing something embarrassing they're sunddenly 'good workers'

[BillThompson]

 

 

Right now, it just isn't worth it. The women they have on the main roster are, at best, mediocre workers and every time they have been given a platform to create something noteworthy they have failed. Unforunately, WWE's stance on women in general has many inherent problems that won't be fixed by the time they call up the NXT bunch that is good enough to potentially headline.

 

Natalya, Paige, Naomi, Nikki Bella, and Alicia Fox all range from decent to really good workers. Even on the main roster the talent is present; it all comes back to presentation and conditioning of the audience.

 

None of them are really good workers. Nikki Bella hasn't done anything memorable ever except throw a solid forearm which somehow now makes her a good worker around here, Naomi is average, Paige, Natalya and Alicia Fox have shown some glimpses of quality but compared to their overall output it would be equivalent to calling Kofi Kingston a really good worker.

 

 

With the exception of Naomi who is all potential right now, I'd rate every single one of those women as decent to really good, and it's not some curve grade or anything like that; they are that good.

[Russellmania]

I think the difference between the main roster mainstays (Nikki, Paige, Natty, Fox, etc.) and the NXT girls is less of a talent gap and more of a difference in both booking and also in how the agents put together the matches. It helps that the NXT girls are given time to do their thing too. the main roster women's matches always seem really rushed and I think that accounts for a lot of the botches you see. Come to think of it, off the top of my head it seem really rare for a Divas match to get a commercial break on RAW. That's something I am going to pay attention to now that I think about it.

 

I think if you had Sara Del Rey helping put together the main roster matches and gave them a little more time to work with (and better booking/stories) then I have no doubt that many of the current main-roster chicks could put out some really good matches.

[Matt Farmer]

Since NXT aired with Banks/Lynch match there has been so much hype that the match and those two have become almost overrated. Now this is not an attempt to knock those two girls as I think they have a lot of potential and I've been a big fan and friend of Becky Lynch for nearly a decade now, even went out and booked her on some shows many years back when she was just 19 and have hung out with her. Very cool girl with loads of talent.

 

BUT and you know there was going to by a but, Sasha and some of the other women are extremely green. There is a huge difference between wrestling at NXT and wrestling on the main roster. And I'm not talking about production or talent relations or anything else. What I am talking about is their time and what they do during the day and week.

 

In NXT you're job is to work out, not only in the gym but in the ring. Becky, Sasha, Charlotte, Bailey and the rest of the girls there are paid to work out. So they have most of the day to work on what they are going to do for the upcoming NXT special or television the next week. Sasha and Becky had hours and days upon days to figure out what they are going to do, they also had a ring at their disposal to go over every single spot...over and over and over again.

 

Now if you are a "Diva" on the main roster, you're actually a rather busy person. And TV's where you see these women have their 5 minutes are very busy. Very, very busy. They have many duties and often do not have the luxury of glammin' down and going to the ring and working out, sometimes they do but since Total Divas they are being utilized for other things that often keep them dressed up and looking good before Raw. Production meetings will often last until 3 o'clock or so and the girls often have no clue what they are doing or if they are wrestling or not. When they do find out the ring is now often "off limits" as they usually tell everyone to get out of the ring by 4pm (I'm talking about west coast shows). They do this so production can do their final adjustments for lighting and they open the doors an hour before bell time. So the girls may have an hour tops to really discuss or go over their match and not even that if they have other segments they are needed for.

 

So the comparisons between the two are a little different. Someone mentioned Paige and how good she looked in NXT compared to Raw, and we're talking about a girl who has been wrestling since she was a young teenager.

 

This comparison goes for the men too, we've seen some phenomenal men's matches that may not come out the same on Raw and not just due to time constraints but also due to planning constraints.

 

NXT is a great facility, but there are differences to working NXT and the main roster.

[BillThompson]

And I really don't care about any of that. If you produce in the ring that's all that matters to me. Sasha Banks has consistently produced in the ring, that's all I care about. If that changes when she moves to the main roster then so be it, but I don't think that will happen. There's so much about Sasha that can't be taught, and so much that is the product of her working very hard to be the best possible wrestler she can be. There's a reason people have been very high on her for a while now, and why some have no problem labeling her one of the best wrestlers in the world.

[donsem43]

John Cena improved a lot from when he first started being pushed as a main guy. I'm pretty sure he has the busiest schedule out of anybody.

 

 

Sasha and some of the other women are extremely green.

 

If Sasha is green then they better postpone the GWE poll till she's a polished vet.

[goc]

I think you guys are underselling Matt Farmer's great post. Now I fully expect people to get way too worked up over this comparison but The Ultimate Warrior had 2 really good WrestleMania matches. The common factor in those matches is that they spent days planning and practicing those matches. No one thinks of The Ultimate Warrior as a great worker because he had great matches that he had days to plan.

 

The difference is that we saw a bunch of crappy Warrior matches before we saw those Mania matches. So we knew the difference between "normal" Warrior and the Warrior we saw vs. Hogan and vs. Savage. We don't know the difference with the NXT women until they get called up. So far it's been a big difference, even accounting for the differences in match time.

[donsem43]

The difference is that Sasha Banks looked closer to Savage than Warrior in her matches. Even if she bombs on the main roster that's not enough to write her off as a worker. Serena looked great after she got fired working indys and Japan. If injuries didn't pile up on her in the last few years she probably would have been resigned by now.

[BillThompson]

I think you guys are underselling Matt Farmer's great post. Now I fully expect people to get way too worked up over this comparison but The Ultimate Warrior had 2 really good WrestleMania matches. The common factor in those matches is that they spent days planning and practicing those matches. No one thinks of The Ultimate Warrior as a great worker because he had great matches that he had days to plan.

 

The difference is that we saw a bunch of crappy Warrior matches before we saw those Mania matches. So we knew the difference between "normal" Warrior and the Warrior we saw vs. Hogan and vs. Savage. We don't know the difference with the NXT women until they get called up. So far it's been a big difference, even accounting for the differences in match time.

 

 

I think you're overselling what was essentially a pointless post, or at best an overreaching one. Using the "she's green" argument for someone who has been wrestling for a few years now and has been in plenty of good to great matches is a very weak argument. Using the "matches are planned out" so we don't know how good a worker she is argument is just as weak.

 

We don't know how much of their matches are planned out. The accounts vary in that regard, and there's just as good of a chance that del Rey plans out a few key moments and leaves the rest up to the workers as there is that she plans out the entire match.

 

Even if they are planned out, so what? The execution still has to take place, and I don't see the majority of people knocking Savage despite him planning out pretty much every match of his entire career.

 

I'm fine with people not liking Sasha, or even thinking she's not a good wrestler. I'd disagree, but I could accept their argument. The argument being put forth is paper thin and not one that holds up to scrutiny. When you have to reach that far to try and take credit away from someone I think it's time to step back and rethink your words.