goc Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Not in a WWE PG environment. And you act like a heel doing bad things automatically gets a heel reaction these days. On paper, someone attacking the lead announcer and throwing him in the ring so they can hit their finisher on him so he can get stretchered out is about the biggest heel move you can make. Brock Lesnar got cheered like crazy. (It's Michael Cole, but honestly you put J.R. in that situation and Lesnar still gets cheered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 So go the other way and the opposite extreme. Super nicey, doesn't break any rules, kissing kids and stuff but gag inducing. Make angles so that a guy like Bryan is positioned in storyline to get a big advertising deal or something, and the office give it to Cena. And do it a few times. That crowd is not above being worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 But what is the point? So people on the internet can write how awesome it is that Cena turned heel? Who is going to make up the ticket & t-shirt sales? You want to pin all your hopes on Daniel Bryan??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I don't know if there's a point, I'm just responding to the thread. I think you'd need an ass kicker. Essentially an Austin 2.0 to be the "human" to Cena's machine. I was thinking you could make it a kind of weird propaganda angle, with shades of games like Bioshock or Portal 2 or Fallout: Las Vegas. Paint Vince as an evil Disney utopian visionary type with Cena as his prototype. Important for it to work would be to run video packages of Cena being a true hero etc., with no irony and no comment from the commentators. Like serve it straight. Perhaps too subtle for wrestling, but an Everyman vs. weird evil Disney empire angle could get over with generation millennial, I think, it has done in video games time and again. Maybe a role for CM Punk? I dunno. Not an ass kicker, but he'd be a suitable face to go against the empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I think WWE has already gone way too far in painting the company and it's owners as the bad guys and should really be working to undo that damage instead of ramping it up. They've worked people so hard that now anyone who the fans see as "the company's" guy gets a backlash, even if people were really into him before i.e. Roman Reigns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I think people overstate the extent to which fans who currently boo Cena would cheer him if he turned heel. A lot of them don't just dislike his booking or his character. They genuinely hate him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 Cena is already a heel when it's convenient. He has had some of his most memorable feuds with beloved babyfaces like The Rock, Shawn Michaels, CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I think people overstate the extent to which fans who currently boo Cena would cheer him if he turned heel. A lot of them don't just dislike his booking or his character. They genuinely hate him. Because he has "buried" their favorite heels multiple times by winning his feuds with them. The vast majority of the Cena haters reasoning doesn't go beyond "he only does 3 moves/he always buries people/blah blah Superman blah blah" Of course that 3 moves argument is bullshit because no one who uses it applies it across the board. The same people who would bash Cena using that argument would defend Dean Ambrose if someone said the same thing about him because "well it's WWE's fault he doesn't do more moves" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 The issue isn't really with Cena himself. It with what he represents. Pretty much all the vocal Cena haters were fans during the Attitude Era, when wrestling was cool and mainstream and adult-oriented. These days, wrestling is decidedly uncool and much more kid-friendly. As the biggest star of the past decade, Cena is the living symbol of that shift. Those fans who hate what wrestling has become take it out on Cena. I don't see that changing regardless of how he's booked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted June 3, 2015 Report Share Posted June 3, 2015 I do, because once Cena turns heel he'll get to be "cool" (even if he's not portraying a "cool" character). You see it with basically every pushed babyface from Orton to Sheamus to Bryan to R-Truth. Once a "lame" babyface turns heel and starts cutting promos about how horrible the crowd is people rejoice that they're finally allowed to let loose. Heels are cool. Babyfaces are lame and pandering and aren't as good as workers. I sound like I'm kidding but I see these ideas expressed all the time. Add in the overwhelming relief and surprise if Cena himself turned heel, and it would be massively cheered no matter what form it took. It's something people have been dying for for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Ewiak Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Well, I totally disagree with it, Max Landis (creator of the Wrestling Isn't Wrestling thing and the writer of Chronicle) posted a Youtube video on why people boo John Cena and it got a ton of love on the wrestling subreddit - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketCrypt Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Reddit is full of fans who clamour for the return of the Attitude Era and is generally one of the worst places I've seen for wrestling discussion. I'll end up on there infrequently because it's usually quick for breaking news. But when I do, I instantly regret it. There always seems to be a thread praising Seth Rollins for being an amazing wrestler and heel performer, which is laughable. And, there still seems to be the notion over there that Cena isn't a good worker. They also seem to hold the consensus opinion that Triple H is an all timer. I would take what they say with a grain of salt, whether that be Cena related, or anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overbooked Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 It seems pretty much impossible to turn Cena heel with any of the usual heel turn tricks. I'm also not sure any heel in this day and age is hated by everyone - there will always be a small contrary group cheering them. Saying that...could Cena turn heel successfully purely through his work in the ring? He could tease all of his signature spots, but refuse to do them, stick to a bland offence, resort to stalling, play off the crowd when he keeps returning to a headlock - a bit like Corino's old school gimmick in ECW. It might produce horrible matches, but I can't imagine it would go down well with the fans who cheer him now, and I'm not sure it would make him a cool/cheerable heel either. While it doesn't exactly scream money, I reckon something like this would turn him properly heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 Actually, a pattern I've noticed in 2015 Cena matches I've seen is that the crowd is with him more than they aren't until he starts with the five knuckle shuffle/you can't see me comeback. At that point, they usually turn on him. A lot of the backlash has subsided now that he is not the number one guy anymore, but some will always be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastic Posted June 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 He'd have to change his in-ring style to be sure. I don't agree with going down the Orton route (5 min headlocks, rest holds, methodical pacing, etc) though. Maybe he'd even adopt a new heelish finishing manoeuvre? Or failing that, go for wins with the STF. It seems far easier to get a submission finisher over in the heel role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmmnx Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 WWE has far more to lose than they do to gain by turning Cena. He's already the most over heel 80% of the time anyway. I really don't see the upside to severing the connection he has with the young fans just to have the d-bags that boo him now start to cheer him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Can't they soft turn him just to get him cheered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 But why do they need him to be cheered? It's not affecting his ability to make money and there are still always loud "Let's go Cena" chants during his big matches even if the "Cena sucks" chants are louder. I think they are totally right to not mess with what works with Cena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 Can't they soft turn him just to get him cheered? That was how I interpreted his loss to Rock at WM28 and promo the next night before Brock laid him out. But then he started feuding with Big Show and had a pay-per-view main event against John Laurinitis, so if they did soft turn him, they soft turned him back quickly. They have tried things over the years to give him an edge, but they are dropped quickly. Is a guy who makes out with Zach Ryder's girlfriend while he's confined to a wheelchair really a pure babyface? It's worth noting in this thread that Dave hinted that the reason Cena won the rematch against Owens is because his merchandise sales dipped after losing to Owens, just as they often do after he loses a big match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I don't understand that mentality. Even if they see Cena's merch dipping, they are also likely going to see Owens's merch rising. They also have other people with decent sales numbers. No, no one is selling like Cena does, and I get that, but on a whole it is not like they are 100% dependent on Cena to sell shit. So why does it matter if in the long run you are going to get a few guys' numbers up as a result of a sustained strong push? The only way it matters really is if Cena is freaking out over it himself and being the company ace, they have to placate him. But he isn't that kind of guy like Austin was when he demanded to be turned back babyface because his sales was down. So I just don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 That is the most backwards thinking reactionary bullshit I have heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's not just this time. Apparently, every time Cena loses, his merch sales dip, which is why no one ever beats him twice. Considering he's outselling the #2 person in merch at a 5:1 margin, I can understand them wanting to ride that gravy train. Vince has told people in the company many times that Cena feeds their families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I have long ago accepted the fact that what I would like to see WWE would do, what I would fantasy book them to do, and what actually makes money for them are different things. It's hard for me to understand HOW that works that his sales dip after a loss though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 It just boggles my mind the concept that Cena sells merchandise by the boatload or whatever it takes to move the needle one way or another by the week or however long it takes to measure the period between one special event to the next that such a slow down would be that damaging enough they had to reverse the trend. Like are they constantly coming out with new Cena themed merchandise daily or something where people just absolutely have to buy something of his weekly? Surely new Cena fans aren't born by the day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 His appeal is to a generation of children used to getting their way and conditioned that Cena doesn't lose. I can imagine a lot of tantrums after a Cena loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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