John Cena - Turn Of The Century

[Johnny Sorrow]

His appeal is to a generation of children used to getting their way and conditioned that Cena doesn't lose. I can imagine a lot of tantrums after a Cena loss.

As opposed to all the tantrums from grown men when he wins. 😄

[Strummer]

pushes being based on the design of a t shirt is I guess something we have to adapt to in regards to modern wrestling. Hell the entire creative direction of the company seems to be based on merchandise sales. It sucks but i guess you just have to adjust. It's a shame that Vince doesn't seem to value a true connection with a live crowd any longer. Punk actually alluded to this in the interview with the mma reporter before he left last year. It's depressing for long time hardcore fans

[Loss]

There have been cases when WWE has received calls from angry parents because John Cena lost, actually.

[goc]

I don't really like their decision to base so many of their decisions on merchandise but I don't know if I can really fault them. At the end of the day the company is supposed to make as much money as it can. T-shirts have way a much bigger profit margin than live events & The Network.

[Grimmas]

I don't really like their decision to base so many of their decisions on merchandise but I don't know if I can really fault them. At the end of the day the company is supposed to make as much money as it can. T-shirts have way a much bigger profit margin than live events & The Network.

The problem is you can't rely on Cena forever and somebody needs to be the new guy, so Cena's merchandise needs to drop.

 

If they keep this up, they are just WCW relying on Hogan and the nWo.

[Loss]

The challenge with that is that WWE has many stakeholders who don't understand wrestling on any level past, "Sell what sells." So the idea of sacrificing merchandise in the short-term in order to create a new long-term cash cow is probably a concept that would be lost with Wall Street, most vendors and other business partners. WWE knows it's time to move on from Cena, and they've used him to put over quite a few of their pet projects, but the truth is that he probably will have that spot as long as he wants it unless someone comes roaring out of the gate who is immediately more of a merch mover than he is, and by a substantial margin at that. I've said many times that added revenue streams are terrible for wrestling fans, but great for wrestling companies.

[JerryvonKramer]

I would like to point back to times when I said that no babyface in history has ever been bullet proof and that Cena can't afford willy nilly losses. Everyone told me to shut up.

[Grimmas]

I would like to point back to times when I said that no babyface in history has ever been bullet proof and that Cena can't afford willy nilly losses. Everyone told me to shut up.

I agree with you. Nobody can be over if they lose a lot. Maybe The Rock, maybe.

[Grimmas]

The challenge with that is that WWE has many stakeholders who don't understand wrestling on any level past, "Sell what sells." So the idea of sacrificing merchandise in the short-term in order to create a new long-term cash cow is probably a concept that would be lost with Wall Street, most vendors and other business partners. WWE knows it's time to move on from Cena, and they've used him to put over quite a few of their pet projects, but the truth is that he probably will have that spot as long as he wants it unless someone comes roaring out of the gate who is immediately more of a merch mover than he is, and by a substantial margin at that. I've said many times that added revenue streams are terrible for wrestling fans, but great for wrestling companies.

How much money would the WWE lose if they went private again? Honest question, I have no idea how that works. Does any company ever do that?

[Slasher]

I would like to point back to times when I said that no babyface in history has ever been bullet proof and that Cena can't afford willy nilly losses. Everyone told me to shut up.

At this point it isn't about whether Cena could or should suffer "willy nilly" losses (and I don't think he has ever had any of those). It is about having the long term vision to build the future on different possibilities. Cena isn't going to be around in this capacity forever. They have had the good fortune of having this kind of cash cow for over a decade now. Are they really this content to just stay pat for another 5 or 10 years? The reason why Cena is by the far biggest merch seller is decisions like this where he can't lose more than one match at a time. But the positive I guess is that Vince does listen to the fans after all.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think the latest time I argued that is when people were saying Rusev should go over. There's no way Rusev goes over in that spot ever.

[Grimmas]

I think the latest time I argued that is when people were saying Rusev should go over. There's no way Rusev goes over in that spot ever.

Depends on whether you want someone else to get over or not

[Slasher]

Oh well I think people didn't see the possibility of Cena making the US title this great TV match belt with the open challenges. It is relatively absurd without hindsight to picture John Cena the franchise player...John Cena the undisputed company ace...as a secondary title holder. The last time he held that thing was like 2003. But I wasn't a guy who thought Rusev was going over Cena at Wrestlemania, but yes Cena absolutely could have afforded that loss in the big picture, few angry parents be damned.

[JerryvonKramer]

I question the wisdom of making him US title holder too, but that's just me.

[Slasher]

With how the WWE values him to this extent, I also have to question the idea that Cena should be wrestling longer (than average) matches weekly against midcarders. I am not talking about in terms of damaging his star value, and I am not complaining considering the output of matches that has resulted, but the guy is 36 or 37 or 38 or whatever it is. Does he really NEED to be wrestling weekly on that level? Even in the TV ace era, this is definitely a good time to start thinking about featuring Cena as a special attraction (at least as a wrestler). Save some of his mileage so he can forevermore be that precious top merch seller the WWE so craves to preserve.

[Johnny Guitar]

Like loss said they have a bunch of shareholders who nothing about wrestling. So the concept of using your top guy to make some new people is lost on them.

 

Also Vince is as much to blame as well. As proven with Hogan and Austin, he'll ride his top guys into the ground until they quit (hogan) or are forced to retire ( austin). And the people he hand picks to replace them never really pan out. It always someone unexpected who rises from the pack. Like Cena.

 

They'll continue to milk Cena until he's crippled or he falls out Vince like nearly everyone else has. At which point they'll rush to Jesus push someone new. Which history shows us will probably fail. Especially now that the shareholders panic over any thing that deviates from the status quo that they know and Vince seems to have completely lost his magic touch/ mojo in recognising talent that's over and pushing it. Wether he likes them or not.

[tim]

 

The challenge with that is that WWE has many stakeholders who don't understand wrestling on any level past, "Sell what sells." So the idea of sacrificing merchandise in the short-term in order to create a new long-term cash cow is probably a concept that would be lost with Wall Street, most vendors and other business partners. WWE knows it's time to move on from Cena, and they've used him to put over quite a few of their pet projects, but the truth is that he probably will have that spot as long as he wants it unless someone comes roaring out of the gate who is immediately more of a merch mover than he is, and by a substantial margin at that. I've said many times that added revenue streams are terrible for wrestling fans, but great for wrestling companies.

How much money would the WWE lose if they went private again? Honest question, I have no idea how that works. Does any company ever do that?

 

 

Vince is the shareholder, Vince does what he wants. I'm extremely skeptical of this idea that WWE are restricted by what shareholders are thinking. Vince owns an overwhelming majority of the shares, no one could possibly challenge him or put real pressure on him to do something he doesn't want to.

[Loss]

They usually react when the share price drops. That's why they did all of those cuts and scaled back the Network plans last year.

[El-P]

In the light of Chris Froome, hum…, Armstrongesque performance yesterday in the Tour de France, I just thought about something that has never been done in pro-wrestling : the doping angle. Yeah. John Cena should fail a drug test and then reveal that he always has been using enhancing performing drugs to get his unbelievable stamina and resistance to pain. Then be erased of the history of WWE and come back as a complete evil troll, Lance Armstrong-style.

Yeah, watching the Tour de France too much.

[WingedEagle]

In the light of Chris Froome, hum…, Armstrongesque performance yesterday in the Tour de France, I just thought about something that has never been done in pro-wrestling : the doping angle. Yeah. John Cena should fail a drug test and then reveal that he always has been using enhancing performing drugs to get his unbelievable stamina and resistance to pain. Then be erased of the history of WWE and come back as a complete evil troll, Lance Armstrong-style.

 

Yeah, watching the Tour de France too much.

 

Lock the thread. This wins.

[Slasher]

If he ever turns heel, this would be the best way (now that costing Undertaker his streak is forevermore off the table), but this shines a big nasty spotlight on PEDs, an obvious big no-no in WWE.

[Jimmy Redman]

Speaking of, Raw was fascinating this week because if you were a random who just turned on the US Title stuff and had no concept of the characters involved going in, you would think Cena was the heel. From the way the segment was booked, Cena's reactions and actions, the way he worked the match, the crowd not liking him...nothing in that whole thing would give you a single clue that Cena's supposed to be a babyface.

 

It was interesting because apart from the first Rock match and MAYBE the RVD match to a certain extent, Cena has never actually 'worked heel' no matter how much the crowd dislikes him or how popular the other guy is. He can be the Hated Babyface, or even an Asshole Babyface (like the Rey title match thing), but never an actual heel.

 

I assume it was just a weird one-night anomaly from how the segment was booked (i.e. I don't actually think he's turning heel...I'll believe that when I see it), but it was a perfect evolution of the intricate John Cena Midlife Crisis storyline I've largely invented in my own head, as he moves more and more into the downswing of his career on top. The added layer here, beyond how heelish he came across, was the sense of entitlement he showed on Raw. He's the US Champ, he's also the Being John Cena Champ, and he is very, very aware of this fact. So if guys want to kill themselves to get a shot at him? So be it. They SHOULD kill themselves just to get to him, as far as he's concerned. And if they have to work two matches in a row then they should just suck it up, like he would.

 

...like he would, but never actually has to do. Cena always gets title shots and matches when he wants them. So when he acts all righteous about it, it comes off as a certain level of out-of-touch. (In a weird way, kind of like how someone like Hunter comes across in real life telling young guys of today that they need to grab the brass ring and get themselves over. Like, yeah, okay...you're married to the boss' daughter. Keep telling us how to scratch and claw from way up in your office tower...) Cena can preach hard work and determination from up on his pedestal, but even accounting for all of the Evil GM feuds he's had, in kayfabe Cena has never really had it tough from a booking perspective. He's always been The Man.

 

The thing is that now he's on this downswing, now that he's showing that he's human and coming back to the pack, that certain level of entitlement, of hubris that he naturally displayed while on top is starting to come off worse and worse. He's in the midcard still trying to act like The Man. Trying to act like the US belt is the World Title. So now that things aren't going his way like they used to, he's starting to act a little bit...petulant. Arguing with the ref's count like he never has before. No longer laughing at impossible kickouts but getting frustrated and angry. Resorting to heelish tactics like the methodical lariats he used on Owens at EC, or the dickish leg kicks and heel-control-style headlocks he was using on Rusev. And like I said yesterday, he had to face a worn out and defenseless Rusev, and he never acted like he felt remotely bad about it at any point. I don't think the John Cena of even two years ago wouldn't have at least acted a little apologetic about the situation on commentary. But it was like he was relieved that he finally had an easy night in the ring, which he hasn't had since he's been doing this stupid Open Challenge, which he regrets starting more and more every week, because every week he goes through a war and it's taking its toll, but he can't back out now because he's determined to be this Fighting Champion.

 

I can't wait to see where the penny drops. I always assumed Owens was winning at Battleground, but there's still so much creative potential left in Cena's reign, so either way I'm intrigued.

[Slasher]

Jimmy Redman, I said this in the other thread too but I'll throw it in here too since you brought it up and I am curious as to your thoughts to this-

 

What Cena did on Raw-it actually fits his character if you think about him in the larger arc of his career. It wasn't about him not being apologetic because he is a tired old man who needs a walk in the park kinda night. It has been brought up in Cena threads that he has always wrestled an internal struggle in his matches. If we are going by that, this means he is a self-centered guy. Not in a heelish fashion (although obviously there are times where his self-centeredness puts him in position where he looks heelish...like last Monday), but in a "I am thinking of myself all the times" way. He wants to represent well for his fans and his people and his own beliefs because its what is best for him. Cena is a guy who loves wrestling because its an outlet for him to do what he wants to do. He does the charities because that is what is good for John Cena (by the way he was a finalist in this year's sports humanitarian of the year award presented by ESPN, won by Tamika Catchings). Everything he does is about John Cena if you think about it. This is why it looks awkward when he pretends to care about other people. Look at the times where he gives other guys props like Daniel Bryan or CM Punk or when he saves Zack Ryder from beatdowns or when he does the show of respect to his honorable opponents. It looks like he is getting a tooth pulled out. It isn't what he really wants to do but it is something he is beholden to as a result of the character that the John Cena character has built up and come to lean on through his "controversial" career. He doesn't actually give a fuck about anybody really. That shines through deliciously in small glimpses like last Monday. It wasn't about being tired. It was about getting to take advantage of actually doing what he really wants to do (the true dickhead personality that he has hidden) while being the John Cena character. This is why some people like myself thinks he is one of the best heels the WWE has and have had for years now...all the while being their franchise babyface.

 

In fact...El-P has made me realize Cena is actually the WWE's Lance Armstrong. I don't mean the doping stuff (although...that is a probability too). I mean in how he has created an empire based on a character that isn't even really that real.

[Jimmy Redman]

Yeah I can't argue with any of that. That's what's so interesting about this run of his, because we see him in a situation he's never been in before - not winning all the time and everything coming up Milhouse, having to struggle for every TV win - and we see how he is reacting to that. And he's reacting in a very...human way. Cena's character has always been so flawlessly heroic (like you say, to the point where he doesn't resemble a real human being) and now finally, finally we are starting to see the cracks.

[Jimmy Redman]

Thinking more about this, I don't think it's that Cena puts himself first and everyone else second. He kind of puts his fans first, himself second, and everyone else third.

 

Everything Cena does is for his fans, that's always been his raison d'etre, even to his own detriment at times where he ignores pain or overwhelming odds or whatever because he wants to perform for the fans. That's why he's such a company man. It's not really heroic or babyface-like to be such a shill, but Cena sees WWE as a means to an end, the "end" being connecting with the fans. WWE.allows him to do that, so he loves WWE.

 

You see this when he ever gets involved with other wrestlers. Really the only time he ever talks about other guys is when they are a fan favourite who is being held down by The Man. That's when he speaks up and puts them over, because that's who the fans want to see, and that's the most important thing. Notice he never puts anyone over for being a great wrestler, not if they don't also have that crowd support.

 

This tidbit probably says more about WWE's idiodic booking, but it's also interesting in this context to note that Cena is actually a 4-time Tag Team Champion.

 

Every single one of those reigns was with someone he was.feuding with at the time.

 

Shawn in 2007, Batista in 2008, Otunga as part of the Nexus in 2010, and Miz in 2011. Like I said it's more of a booking thing, but it also speaks to the fact that Cena has never had a tag team partner. All his title partners were his enemies, and he's had short-lived alliances with "little buddies" (Cryme Tyme, Bourne, Zack, etc.) But there's no one who was ever his partner, his equal, someone that Cena could actually care deeply about. He really does exist in his own little universe, an island unto himself.