BigBadMick Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Or has this already been covered somewhere in the Yearbooks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted June 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 I should start this. With the caveat that I've a lot of Japan to watch. And I've rewatched a lot of US matches from this decade in the past 2 years or so. 1990 - Hansen (just awesome, moving into his old grizzled but deadly veteran stage) 1991 - Really don't know yet 1992 - Rude (liked his run years ago, it held up very nicely recently) 1993 - Bret (enjoyed his ppv - KotR and SummerSlam particularly - and Raw matches) 1994 - Dustin Rhodes (really great feuds most of the year, improved tremendously) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted June 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 1995 - Really not sure here either. No-one stands out in WWF, and WCW was only starting to get back on track at the tail end of the year. 1996 - Michaels. 1997 - Bret Hart (he wasn't great every time out, but WM, SummerSlam and the UK ppv were exceptional. Held the promotion together in many ways. BTW such is my lack of certainty on all these that based entirely on v Misawa 20/01 I'm tempted to give this to Kobashi) 1998 - Really don't know. Rewatched a lot of Raw very recently and the best there (Austin, Foley, Rock later in the year) really doesn't feel WOTY worthy to me. WCW had the usual story - great midcarders, mostly inadequate main eventers. Actually, DDP could take it for trying his best when top spots came his way. 1999 - Again, nothing in WWF seems worthy. Liked a lot of WCW in first half of the year. Benoit seems the pick there. Again, I'm fully aware that I've a lot to rewatch closely both in Japan and the US. And none of these are set in stone at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 1993-Hokuto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Of years I've went through: 1990: 1. Dandy 2. Satanico 3. Jumbo 1991: 1. Jumbo afterwards there is a ton of candidates 1994: 1. Misawa 2. Kawada 3. Doc 4. Liger 5. Kong 6. Vader 1997: 1. Kobashi 2. Liger 3. Otani 4. Misawa 1998: 1. Kobashi 2. Tamura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 1999 - This feels like Tajiri's year, and Dylan can back me up on that. I also loved what I saw from Dick Togo but that may just be the fanboy in me. Maybe if we had more singles Togo on tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 First five years for Mexico: 1990: El Dandy. 1991: Tough year. Fuerza Guerrera and Emilio Charles Jr. are probably the top two guys in CMLL, but there's no legendary year here. Hijo del Santo, Atlantis, and Blue Panther have arguments, Brazo de Plata was the man at the center of a big year for the Brazos, and Brazo de Oro is a darkhorse candidate given that he has the match with Santo in addition to his Brazos stuff. I'd go with Fuerza. 1992: This is a strong year for a lot of guys, so it feels kind of wrong to pick Negro Casas, of whom there is very little footage for the first five months of the year. 1993: Negro Casas, but Lizmark has a case. 1994: Rey Misterio Jr. maybe? This feels like the worst year of the five, although there's a lot that I haven't seen. I'm ignorant of too much wrestling (as evident by the fact that I didn't list 1995-99) to judge whether any of these guys was the best wrestler in the world, but Dandy in 1990 and Casas in 1993 feel like the ones with the best cases. Casas was just as good in 1992 but was a TV regular for a little over half a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 99 : Mariko Yoshida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 1999 - Kenta Kobashi 1998 - Kenta Kobashi 1997 - Mitsuharu Misawa 1996 - Mitsuharu Misawa 1995 - Toshiaki Kawada 1994 - Toshiaki Kawada 1993 - Kenta Kobashi 1992 - Toshiaki Kawada 1991 - Jumbo Tsuruta 1990 - Jumbo Tsuruta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 1999 - Kenta Kobashi 1998 - Kenta Kobashi 1997 - Mitsuharu Misawa 1996 - Mitsuharu Misawa 1995 - Toshiaki Kawada 1994 - Toshiaki Kawada 1993 - Kenta Kobashi 1992 - Toshiaki Kawada 1991 - Jumbo Tsuruta 1990 - Jumbo Tsuruta I may not go with exactly the same picks but my gut was that every year is a nod to AJPW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 1990- Flair, Eaton & Fujiwara are near the top for the year. Tenryu has a chance at top 10 despite being inactive for a good portion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 1990-Hashimoto 1991-Hashimoto 1992-Hashimoto 1993-Hashimoto 1994-Hashimoto 1995-Hashimoto 1996-Hashimoto 1997-Hashimoto 1998-Hashimoto 1999-Hashimoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted June 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 1999 - Kenta Kobashi 1998 - Kenta Kobashi 1997 - Mitsuharu Misawa 1996 - Mitsuharu Misawa 1995 - Toshiaki Kawada 1994 - Toshiaki Kawada 1993 - Kenta Kobashi 1992 - Toshiaki Kawada 1991 - Jumbo Tsuruta 1990 - Jumbo Tsuruta I may not go with exactly the same picks but my gut was that every year is a nod to AJPW. Not as varied a field as the 80s then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted June 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Of years I've went through: 1990: 1. Dandy 2. Satanico 3. Jumbo 1991: 1. Jumbo afterwards there is a ton of candidates 1994: 1. Misawa 2. Kawada 3. Doc 4. Liger 5. Kong 6. Vader 1997: 1. Kobashi 2. Liger 3. Otani 4. Misawa 1998: 1. Kobashi 2. Tamura Thanks Chad. Couple of things - Liger - I know you're only basing it on the years you've covered in detail, but generally do you feel 94 and 97 were his best years in the 90s? He was injured in Sep 94, so I assume your high ranking there is based on the Super J Cup and Sasuke rematch? I remember loving an Otani-Liger match from Feb 97, seemed like a real return to form after his health scare the previous summer. Vader - Again, based on what you've watched outside the yearbooks, were would he rank in 1991-95? I've a ton of AJPW tv from the early 90s. I was going to watch it all in order but might have to pick and choose to get some rating done for next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 1999 - Kenta Kobashi 1998 - Kenta Kobashi 1997 - Mitsuharu Misawa 1996 - Mitsuharu Misawa 1995 - Toshiaki Kawada 1994 - Toshiaki Kawada 1993 - Kenta Kobashi 1992 - Toshiaki Kawada 1991 - Jumbo Tsuruta 1990 - Jumbo Tsuruta I may not go with exactly the same picks but my gut was that every year is a nod to AJPW. Not as varied a field as the 80s then? You can certainly make cases for non-AJPW guys, especially if you prefer a Liger, Vader, Hashimoto to this style. I think there's a stronger argument for someone outside of Baba's group post-96 when the hits were fewer and further between than earlier in the decade. But you don't have Flair putting together the kind of years he did in the 80s where he's clearly on top of his game, while this crew just felt so far ahead of everything else going on in the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 92 to Kawada and 93 to Kobashi feels generous to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 92 to Kawada and 93 to Kobashi feels generous to me. 93 with Kobashi has generally been accepted but it really plays out. He had a two ****+ matches in singles just in what you guys just reviewed for All Japan Excite. He also had the Kawada singles match which you were pretty much lower on than anyone but still ranked ***1/2. Big tag matches? He was great in those even though 12/3 admittedly is all about Kawada, the 6/1 tag really helps bolster up Kobashi up to the top. Kobashi also had a great singles match with Terry Gordy and was in a ton of other six mans and tags throughout the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 This is why Great Match Theory should not be the be all and end all, because there is no way Kobashi was the best wrestler in the world in 1993. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Of years I've went through: 1990: 1. Dandy 2. Satanico 3. Jumbo 1991: 1. Jumbo afterwards there is a ton of candidates 1994: 1. Misawa 2. Kawada 3. Doc 4. Liger 5. Kong 6. Vader 1997: 1. Kobashi 2. Liger 3. Otani 4. Misawa 1998: 1. Kobashi 2. Tamura Thanks Chad. Couple of things - Liger - I know you're only basing it on the years you've covered in detail, but generally do you feel 94 and 97 were his best years in the 90s? He was injured in Sep 94, so I assume your high ranking there is based on the Super J Cup and Sasuke rematch? I remember loving an Otani-Liger match from Feb 97, seemed like a real return to form after his health scare the previous summer. Vader - Again, based on what you've watched outside the yearbooks, were would he rank in 1991-95? I've a ton of AJPW tv from the early 90s. I was going to watch it all in order but might have to pick and choose to get some rating done for next year. LIger is a little odd in that he is prominent at times throughout most of the 90's years but doesn't have that one great year to point through. 94 has the Hashimoto match in 94 which along with the Super J Cup and Sasuke stuff, really feels like more mixed variety. However, 90 has the Sano finale and fun series with Akira Nogami. 91 has the Hase match which I really dug and the PIllman stuff at the end. i fully expect once I go through 92, LIger will be a candidate there with the PIllman match, Pegasus Kid match and Samurai stuff. Even in 1999, it is debatable whether Kanemoto and Otani have eclipsed LIger but he is still right there with them. Vader 91-95 is tougher for the other years. Again, 1992 will be the pivotal point there where i can see if he will have a chance. I am over halfway done with 93 and feel confident that he wouldn't be in my top 5 for that year even though it wasn't necessarily a bad year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 This is why Great Match Theory should not be the be all and end all, because there is no way Kobashi was the best wrestler in the world in 1993. This is outstandingly ignorant given the cherry picking you and Steven have seen. Watch the Kawada/Taue vs. MVC title change to see Kawada give a disappointing performance. And that isn't saying that Kawada wasn't outstanding in 93 and could be a viable pick for WOTY, I am just saying that you have seen 6 Kobashi matches of the 20+ that have made tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 What difference does it make how many matches if as a worker he is not as good as Hansen or Kawada? I can watch all 20 of them if you want, how does it put him over the top? I'm getting a bit fed up of being called "ignorant". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Kobashi came into 1993 as a still clear underdog. He hadn't main evented a Budokan on his own yet and even though he was firmly being established as the clear #2, most of his feuds up to that point consisted of being Misawa's buddy or his stuff with Kikuchi. In early 1993, he has a singles match with Taue that is very good and helps Kobashi stretch his legs out against opponents in a singles environment. To that point, Taue was only having as good singles matches with Kawada/Misawa. Kobashi does a great job in the Champion Carnival. The Hansen handheld is a great match that features an even more brutal lariat for the finish. He started heating up a feud with Kawada which was integral in giving Kawada something to do besides perpetually chasing Misawa. May sees him have the last great singles match of Terry Gordy's career in what I do classify as a carry job for Kobashi. Then in June 1 tag, him vs. Kawada really takes center stage in that first tag and Kobashi really becomes the MVP for me in that match. Then we have the 7/2/93 Six Man where he gives a very good performance, the 7/19 match vs. Kawada/Fuchi where him and Fuchi have some more fun junior elements and the topper in the 7/29/93 Hansen match. That Hansen match is the ultimate babyface performance match and Kobashi gets elevated through a lost as you observed. I don't think it can be understated how good Kobashi was here as there are very few instances in wrestling of this elevation of this level. August shows him have a better singles match with Doc than Misawa was able to muster 4 days later. October he gets his chance to headline Budokan and is at least equal to Kawada in the October match to me. Tag League features him again working old man Baba, big guys like Boss Man, and against the four pillars. 12/3/93 will always be Kawada's match but Kobashi was still very good to great in it. The ignorance and hand wringing comes about when you make definitive statements about absolutes. I never stated here that there was NO WAY Kawada could be wrestler of the year. You do that with Kobashi but based on what? That he had a lesser Hansen match in your eyes than Kawada (you are in the minority with that opinion) or that Kawada was better in the 12/3 tag match? ( No one would likely dispute this). There is other highlights throughout the year that help all candidates including Misawa vs. Taue 2/28 or Hansen vs. Misawa 5/93. I don't have a set number of what is the amount of stuff you have to watch to form an opinion as that is where objectivity comes into play. All I am saying is that Kawada does have the 12/3 tag which is better as one thing than Kobashi did the whole year (although 7/29/93 vs. Hansen for me is close) but Kobashi doesn't have something that thuds as much as that Holy Demon Army vs. MVC tag does and Kawada was at the forefront for a lot of the problems presented in that match. Besides Hansen, it feels like Kobashi worked better with foreigners throughout the year almost definitively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 I see where you are coming from. Is "Wrestler of the Year" the person who was involved in the most ****+ matches or the person who gave the best performances overall? I'll give you an example, when I gave Wrestler of the Year for WCW to Lex Luger for whatever year it was (1990 was it?), I don't think it was because he was involved in the most great matches, but because as a package he felt like the best worker in the promotion in terms of his performances -- obviously not a better worker in terms of his base skills than Flair or Eaton or Arn, and maybe even a comparable amount of great matches, but Lex felt like he brought it all together that year. If you think after seeing everything that Kobashi was like that, then fine, I won't argue. From the stuff I saw, which I understand is at the very top end, Kobashi didn't feel, as a pacakge, like the guy putting on the best performances. There could also be a peak vs. consistency aspect. Like Hansen's two best performances that year and Kawada's best are better than anything Kobashi did, but over the year he was more consistent? Something like that? I dunno, to me Kobashi still doesn't seem like the finished article and so seeing him as the wrestler of the year seems weird to my way of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted June 7, 2015 Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 I think anyone championing Hansen, Kawada, Kobashi, or Misawa for wrestler of the year in 1993 has a nuianced argument that goes beyond the great match theory. Hansen had his best singles matches of his career with each of the big three in All Japan in 1993. He performed well almost every time given a chance (Misawa Carny final could be the exception). Kawada turned in one of the best performances ever in 12/3 and was a constant foil clearly establishing himself as the main rival to Misawa. He formed the most dominant tag team in All Japan in the 90's in 1993 and they immediately bolstered the tag divison. Kobashi transitioned from fun upstart to main event player. He worked underdog, fiery athletic juggarnaut vs. Williams and asskicker wanting to prove he belonged. Misawa truly became the ace in 1993 and turned in really great performances almost every time out. The 2/28 Taue defense isn't flashy but showed he could have a "minimalist" title defense against Taue ( who really had no shot of winning) and it still could be compelling. He had two more exacting chapters in the Kawada singles feud and the tag matches were both classics where he was unselfish at times in letting others take center stage but providing highlights when called upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted June 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 Chad, just to clarify - 'Hansen had his best singles matches of his career with each of the big three in All Japan in 1993. He performed well almost every time given a chance (Misawa Carny final could be the exception).' Are you saying that Hansen v Kawada (2/28), Hansen v Kobashi (7/29) and Hansen v Misawa (???) are the three best singles matches of his career? Or that they are the best matches he ever had with each of those opponents? If the former, in what order, and what date was the Misawa match? Just checking - value your opinion and keen to get cracking on these soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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