John Tenta vs Steve Williams

[Matt D]

Id be way more interested in Kobashi working Tenta's match than Bossman working Kobashi's match. Just saying.

[Loss]

I don't even know what a John Tenta match looks like. There is a Flair match, a Hogan match, a Bret match, a Shawn match, an Austin match, a HHH match, a Kobashi match, a Misawa match, a Choshu match, a Liger match, a Rude match, a Backlund match, a Steamboat match, a Rey match, a Toyota match, a Yoshida match, a Santo match, a Windham match, a Daniel Bryan match, a Midnight Express match, a Hansen match and a Larry Zbyszko match. For better or worse, someone could describe any match as a typical ___ match and I'd have a general idea of how it was laid out. But I don't even know that I could say "This is what a John Tenta match looks like". Doc was typically the type of guy that got plugged into the other guy's working style in his best matches himself, and he never really struck me as a ring general. Maybe the same is true of Tenta, maybe it isn't. I don't know, because I can't name 10 memorable-good John Tenta matches.

 

But that is all going in circles anyway. I think that's the divide when we debate these things. Half of us would rather talk about what-ifs than the careers these wrestlers actually had, while the other half would prefer not to deal in hypotheticals at all.

[Matt D]

Man, I can totally picture a John Tenta match. I think Kobashi would have been really great in one.

 

EDIT: I actually have a much harder time with a Kobashi match since I sort of see him as an element that plays into other people's matches. That's probably lack of familiarity on my part. Please note that when I said that I basically meant "90s AJPW style."

[Grimmas]

If you avoid hypothetical s then you ignore situational advantages.

 

That's like arguing Jari Kurri is better than Sidney Crosby. Kurri had more points and more cups, but he was on the wing with Gretzky in the highest scoring time ever.

[JerryvonKramer]

A typical Tenta match:

 

- Come in, stomp around to make the Earthquake

- no sell shoulder barge to establish he is a monster

- some offense, such as forearms, butt splashes, corner splashes, or a simple dump out of the ring

- hope spot by babyface where Tenta sells for the first time

- Tenta cuts off babyface and continues the heat sequence, possibly he is tired at this point and so sits in a chinlock or applies a bear hug

- babyface makes a comeback out of chinlock / bearhug and gets a nearfall on the big man

- Tenta comes back, maybe with a standing scoop powerslam and we go into the finish ...

- Earthquake splash if he's going over, count out if he's losing or winning against Hogan

[Matt D]

 

You can't use great match theory with Tenta, because at no point in his career was that his goal. His goal was to be a giant asshole prick who sat on you and was unmoveable.

 

 

How many wrestlers career goal was Great Match Theory?

 

Seriously, who comes up with tropes like this. It was idiots like ourselves who came up with nonsensical terms like Great Match Theory (or My Turn, Your Turn to be equal opportunity in mentioning nonsensical terms) to explain some bullshit that *we* are seeing, be it in the Work or in our own circular discussions about Work. The vast majority of wrestlers that we're talking about would see us tossing out phrases like Great Match Theory and wonder what in the fuck are we talking about.

 

Just shit on the entire Enlightenment, why dontcha John?

[goc]

I could not see John Tenta having a better UWF babyface run than Dr. Death. I also don't see him being better in All Japan. Even in a completely hypothetical world where we explain away anything good Steve Williams ever did and over rate the good things Tenta did, I don't see how he's better than Doc.

 

Also, JVK stop messing around in this thread and go make your draft pick.

[jdw]

 

Just shit on the entire Enlightenment, why dontcha John?

 

 

Wait... have we gotten so full of ourself that we're claiming to be the Enlightenment of Wrestling Fandom?

 

I've long been called an arrogant condescending fan, but even I won't go there.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think Tenta skews this whole thing. For some reason Grimmas thought he was comparable.

 

I think he's a bad example for the wider point which is: "Williams could have been replaced by a similiar worker and in that same spot they could have had good run with some great matches".

 

And then the question is "ok, if that's true, well then who?"

[Matt D]

 

 

Just shit on the entire Enlightenment, why dontcha John?

 

 

Wait... have we gotten so full of ourself that we're claiming to be the Enlightenment of Wrestling Fandom?

 

I've long been called an arrogant condescending fan, but even I won't go there.

 

Hey, you, more than anyone else, are the guy who is always the first to remind us that we're not doing anything new here. No new ideas under the sun and all that.

 

All we're doing is organizing, classifying, and looking for patterns in order to better understand the world around us, or in this case, a hobby that we're passionate about.

 

I'll admit that there's something sort of 18th century about how we do it and it's not particularly robust relative to how people look at other mediums, but trust me, I'll take that over Parv using literary theory or Foucault to break things down any day, personally (and I don't say that because he would so much as because I know he could.)

[jdw]

 

As for the rest of the post, you completely missed my point. First, don't tell me people in AJPW weren't trying to have great matches.

 

I'm saying they didn't give a shit about the Great Match Theory.

 

They really were no different from Flair and the MX+Corney who went out trying to perform at a high level. I suspect if you rolled out the Great Match Theory to Ric, he'd think you were an idiot.

 

Second, yes Bigelow, Bossman, Vader were heavy bumpers and looked great doing athletic matches. However, my point remains, Tenta never tried to work that style. He wasn't a big bump forever and make them look great in a back and forth style match.

Could he do that? Very possible, he did dropkicks so he was athletic.

 

 

There are matches available of Tenta in Japan in 1993. By all means tell me how that guy could hit the upper cards of All Japan.

 

If Tenta went on an extended run in AJPW he would had changed up his style and bumped a lot more. His offense already looked great, he was an awesome seller so where does this leave us? If Tenta went to AJPW and changed up his style would he be looked at as great as Dr. Death?

 

 

 

His offense looked great? In an All Japan context, exactly what elements of his offense looked great?

 

I just watched a match of his with Haku from Japan in 1993. His offense was dropping a lot of elbows. Basically Abby's 1993 offense.

 

As far as his selling, it really isn't All Japan selling and bumping.

 

 

What I do know is that if you remove the AJPW run, then I take Tenta over Doc any day.

 

 

I'm not entirely sure why we would take away someone's run where they peak when doing a comp of work. I mean... if you took away Kawada's All Japan work, I'd take Ric Rude any day. Where does stuff like that get anyone?

[WingedEagle]

If you avoid hypothetical s then you ignore situational advantages.

 

That's like arguing Jari Kurri is better than Sidney Crosby. Kurri had more points and more cups, but he was on the wing with Gretzky in the highest scoring time ever.

 

Where are Earthquake's points and cups? When the hypothetical is not merely hypothetical but goes so far as to distort, make up or ignore reality I'm not sure what it serves.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

If Tenta could have had all these great matches in mid-90s All Japan then how come Albright didn't? Williams not only held up his end of matches but grew as a worker in the promotion. Don't agree with this "plug and play" theory at all.

Tenta was better than Albright, also that is not what I was saying. Williams` resume was greatly padded by his opponents and most wrestlers would have more great matches in that environment than without it. Look at Johnny Ace.

 

 

Was Tenta better than Albright in UWF-i? Williams was significantly better than Johnny Ace in All Japan. I don't think anyone thinks Ace is a great worker because he had good performances in All Japan. Williams rose to the occasion in All Japan. If he hadn't lifted the standard of his own work, his matches against Misawa and Kawada would have been on the same level as Misawa/Gordy or some other solid albeit less memorable encounter. Besides, if you take away All Japan, Williams still has US work to fall back on. Take away Tenta's best run and his position is far flimsier.

[jdw]

I think Tenta skews this whole thing. For some reason Grimmas thought he was comparable.

 

I think he's a bad example for the wider point which is: "Williams could have been replaced by a similiar worker and in that same spot they could have had good run with some great matches".

 

And then the question is "ok, if that's true, well then who?"

 

Vader... and Vader... er... and Vader.

 

There wasn't a gaijin from 8/93 - 12/96 who could have stepped into Doc's role other than Vader.

 

Bigelow could have worked All Japan, but it's not clear how well, whether Baba thought he was reliable enough, or whether he could hit the level that Doc did (i.e. a non-flukey Triple Crown Champ). Gotta recall that Bigelow was available at the end of 1995, and Baba would take him. He was sitting there until August 1996, and Baba wouldn't take him.

 

He ended up doing some tours with WAR, then was done by the end of 1996. He didn't work Japan in 1997, and instead went to ECW. Sure, Baba had a pecking order and didn't want someone to rock the boat of the returning (in March 1996) Doc and Hansen's spot. But... wait...

 

He did sign Gary Albright in late 1995.

 

So... there likely is a reason that he knew from New Japan or from Bigelow's brief "payback loan" to All Japan in 1990 that made him not make an strong effort to sign someone who, for a Big Fat Guy, could have more easily worked the style.

 

Beyond them...

 

There really weren't big or semi-big men in the US would could work it in 1993-96. Maybe you could get lucky and someone could pick it up over the course of 6+ years like Johnny Ace, but (i) Ace was there as the style escalated/evolved going all the way back to 1988, (ii) he never was over to Triple Crown Champ level, and (iii) he never really was over to serious Triple Crown challenger level. He got one Triple Crown challenge a decade into his time with All Japan, in a filler spot as Misawa had run the table and then some in that reign, and then never got another TC challenge in his two and a half years remaining with the company. That probably isn't the kind of luck the company would be looking for in 1993.

 

We all like Austin, but his stuff with New Japan was so-so. Given how his body held up in the WWF, it's a bit scary thinking of him in All Japan.

 

Pretty blank of gaijin candidates.

[JerryvonKramer]

How big of a factor do you think Dr Death's size was?

 

Does it have to be a 300lber?

[BillThompson]

 

 

Just shit on the entire Enlightenment, why dontcha John?

 

 

Wait... have we gotten so full of ourself that we're claiming to be the Enlightenment of Wrestling Fandom?

 

I've long been called an arrogant condescending fan, but even I won't go there.

 

 

I'm not afraid to say you about make this place not worth coming to. Such a drag, every single freaking post...

[jdw]

 

If you avoid hypothetical s then you ignore situational advantages.

 

That's like arguing Jari Kurri is better than Sidney Crosby. Kurri had more points and more cups, but he was on the wing with Gretzky in the highest scoring time ever.

 

Where are Earthquake's points and cups? When the hypothetical is not merely hypothetical but goes so far as to distort, make up or ignore reality I'm not sure what it serves.

 

 

I also wonder where Quake's two Hart Trophies and two Ross Trophies are.

 

That's also setting aside that at the same age, Crosby has more points.

[Grimmas]

 

 

If you avoid hypothetical s then you ignore situational advantages.

 

That's like arguing Jari Kurri is better than Sidney Crosby. Kurri had more points and more cups, but he was on the wing with Gretzky in the highest scoring time ever.

 

Where are Earthquake's points and cups? When the hypothetical is not merely hypothetical but goes so far as to distort, make up or ignore reality I'm not sure what it serves.

 

 

I also wonder where Quake's two Hart Trophies and two Ross Trophies are.

 

That's also setting aside that at the same age, Crosby has more points.

 

That was a critique on the system of judging people by the amount of great matches, instead of talent. Notice I didn't mention Earthquake in my statement.

[jdw]

Hey, you, more than anyone else, are the guy who is always the first to remind us that we're not doing anything new here. No new ideas under the sun and all that.

 

All we're doing is organizing, classifying, and looking for patterns in order to better understand the world around us, or in this case, a hobby that we're passionate about.

 

I'll admit that there's something sort of 18th century about how we do it and it's not particularly robust relative to how people look at other mediums, but trust me, I'll take that over Parv using literary theory or Foucault to break things down any day, personally (and I don't say that because he would so much as because I know he could.)

 

 

As you say, I'm the one that points out that we're doing the same shit now that we've done for years, just with more stuff to look at. Of course in 2005 we had more stuff to look at than in 1995, and in 1995 we had more stuff (if we cared to chase for it) than in 1985, and 1985 was light years ahead of 1975 in what was available to collectors / hardcore fans. It just part of a continuum.

 

As far as Enlightenment, to consider us or the nonsense we're talking about to be the Locke or Voltaire or Kant of pro wrestling is pretty much up there in the Kerry Von Erich Delusional Zone.

[jdw]

 

 

 

If you avoid hypothetical s then you ignore situational advantages.

 

That's like arguing Jari Kurri is better than Sidney Crosby. Kurri had more points and more cups, but he was on the wing with Gretzky in the highest scoring time ever.

 

Where are Earthquake's points and cups? When the hypothetical is not merely hypothetical but goes so far as to distort, make up or ignore reality I'm not sure what it serves.

 

 

I also wonder where Quake's two Hart Trophies and two Ross Trophies are.

 

That's also setting aside that at the same age, Crosby has more points.

 

That was a critique on the system of judging people by the amount of great matches, instead of talent. Notice I didn't mention Earthquake in my statement.

 

 

If people judge Crosby on talent, he'd have more than two Harts. Instead, they actually do judge him on the equiv of "great matches": he won his Harts in the same years that he won his Rosses.

 

In the end, Kuri was judged on his great matches as well: his honors line up with them, and he had enough of them to get in the Hall of Fame.

[jdw]

How big of a factor do you think Dr Death's size was?

 

Does it have to be a 300lber?

 

Probably a good deal. If we carve out the NWA Champs, Baba seemed to go with Top Gaijin who were of size looking at the last four guys he pushed to that level:

 

Brody

Hansen

Gordy

Williams

 

Hansen was pushed to that level instantly.

 

Brody push to being the top gaijin is probably less clear and quick that it's sometimes been described.

 

Gordy was a long time coming, and kind of blew up with the dope when given the chance.

 

Doc's was interesting in that he got a chance to move up when Gordy had the second OD, and stepped up beyond what anyone could have expected.

 

They're all big.

 

Spivey was Hansen's partner for a good stretch, and he was big. Ted wasn't small, though Stan makes one look smaller. Albright was big. Ace was "tall".

 

In turn, the smaller gaijin hit a ceiling.

 

So yeah... Baba appears to have been looking for big guys to be at the top on the gaijin side. He wasn't going to sign a Shawn Michaels in 1993 and push him as in the spot Doc got into. Scott Hall was tall enough... not really as "monster" sized as Hansen, Gordy or Doc, but had a height element.

 

Don't think it would have to be 300+, but you're looking for something that has "size" in a combo of height and/or weight. Can't be skinny like Kendall Windham.

[Grimmas]

 

 

 

 

If you avoid hypothetical s then you ignore situational advantages.

 

That's like arguing Jari Kurri is better than Sidney Crosby. Kurri had more points and more cups, but he was on the wing with Gretzky in the highest scoring time ever.

 

Where are Earthquake's points and cups? When the hypothetical is not merely hypothetical but goes so far as to distort, make up or ignore reality I'm not sure what it serves.

 

 

I also wonder where Quake's two Hart Trophies and two Ross Trophies are.

 

That's also setting aside that at the same age, Crosby has more points.

 

That was a critique on the system of judging people by the amount of great matches, instead of talent. Notice I didn't mention Earthquake in my statement.

 

 

If people judge Crosby on talent, he'd have more than two Harts. Instead, they actually do judge him on the equiv of "great matches": he won his Harts in the same years that he won his Rosses.

 

In the end, Kuri was judged on his great matches as well: his honors line up with them, and he had enough of them to get in the Hall of Fame.

 

So instead of looking at my point, you look into my one example. That was off the top of my head (and may not illustrate my point exactly), if you don't know what I was getting at I will explain it again.

[Matt D]

 

Hey, you, more than anyone else, are the guy who is always the first to remind us that we're not doing anything new here. No new ideas under the sun and all that.

 

All we're doing is organizing, classifying, and looking for patterns in order to better understand the world around us, or in this case, a hobby that we're passionate about.

 

I'll admit that there's something sort of 18th century about how we do it and it's not particularly robust relative to how people look at other mediums, but trust me, I'll take that over Parv using literary theory or Foucault to break things down any day, personally (and I don't say that because he would so much as because I know he could.)

 

 

As you say, I'm the one that points out that we're doing the same shit now that we've done for years, just with more stuff to look at. Of course in 2005 we had more stuff to look at than in 1995, and in 1995 we had more stuff (if we cared to chase for it) than in 1985, and 1985 was light years ahead of 1975 in what was available to collectors / hardcore fans. It just part of a continuum.

 

As far as Enlightenment, to consider us or the nonsense we're talking about to be the Locke or Voltaire or Kant of pro wrestling is pretty much up there in the Kerry Von Erich Delusional Zone.

 

That's not what I'm saying John.

 

Also, I just watched Bossman vs Kobashi, liked it a lot, but also think Tenta could have had a very similar match in 92-93. Some of the flourishes like the powerbomb and missed top rope move and the sunset flip reversal of a piledriver reversal would have had to be different (simpler, but also effective looking given how good Tenta's stuff looked. I think the crowd would have reacted just as much). They'd have to get to the initial legwork a different way too (probably with Tenta knocked out of the ring when Kobashi moved him for the first time with his offense early on. The grabbing of the legs could come from there). But the way Bossman gave and sold, the way he worked the crowd, the great cut off with the punch out of nowhere, these were all things that Quake were pretty good at (With that last one, I would have actually loved to see Kobashi vs Yoko, because again, they could have had a pretty similar match thematically).

[Parties]

To the three people of thirty-one who prefer Tenta to Williams: what do I need to watch to feel the same way? I'll give this dismissal of Great Matches in favor of “the little things” that Tenta does so well a shot. “It's the notes he's not playing, man.” OK, fair enough. What are the great performances? Or great moments? Or great anything that surpasses Williams? Point me in the right direction.

 

There was a Tenta appreciation thread on DVDVR as well. I remember honestly Youtubing a ton of Tenta from various different points in his career. Reading career overviews to see if I'd missed something. Really trying to give him a fair shake. Everything I watched made me think even less of him than I already did. His singles matches in WAR against Haku, Arashi, and Kitao are horrible, and those are the closest parallel he has to Williams-in-AJ that I know of. You'd be hard pressed to find a giant who looks less imposing than Tenta. He doesn't come off as a killer. He comes off as the most depressed video store clerk I've ever seen. Maybe he has great stuff there that I've yet to find. Maybe there are two minute squashes from mid-90s WCW that would change everything.

 

Just rewatched Summerslam with Hogan, and if there's ever been a match in which Hogan carried someone, that is it. Hogan's awesome in that match. Jimmy Hart is great. Bossman as cornerman is really fun. Even 1990 Dino Bravo looks better stooging than Tenta did as the focal point of the match. (Does that mean we missed out on 1990 Dino Bravo's tour-de-force hypothetical run in Japan? If Bravo had been given the opportunity to be booked as a star by Maeda in UWF, would Dino Bravo would have looked as good or better than Fujiwara? We'll never know.) Everyone in that Summerslam match works so hard to make Tenta look great. They booked him as strong as possible, such better treatment than WWF typically gave heels at the time: he was presented like a total beast who Hogan and Bossman double-teaming could barely keep at bay. I don't see him there as a victim of bad booking. Yet bell to bell, Tenta remains plodding, slow, and utterly without any fire behind his work. To turn the hypotheticals around, I have zero doubt that Hogan and Williams having a 20 minute PPV main event would have been much, much better.

[Bierschwale]

If you put Tenta in that period of All Japan, and he had a match with a native that was worked with the native's general gameplan, I feel like that who'd make for the best match would probably be Taue on my first thought, if not even Baba himself.