Ladder match vs Cage match

[concrete1992]

I mean in the past 5 years or so. Whenever the Fed dropped blood, more or less.

[Laz]

It absolutely does for me. I will take a garden variety MitB/TLC/etc. over most WWE cage matches these days.

[Smack2k]

I mean in the past 5 years or so. Whenever the Fed dropped blood, more or less.

 

Cant answer the last few years in WWE / North America....but my guess would be ladder matches would be better just for the spectacle as I cant imagine either being as good as they used to be...Man, I am starting to age with lines like that!

[Wade Garrett]

I'm not to high on gimmick matches. But if it's appropriate in a feud the cyclone fence match is by far the most logical to me in most cases. It's not really to far outta the realm in regards to believability. The UFC has been using cyclone fencing for over 22yrs. so the fence would be excepted by a younger fan as well.

 

I can get behind a no countout/dq stip. Love the original style Texas Death Match. Bull rope, Chain (Dog-Collar) , and Straps push it a little but shouldn't be about touching for corners. Just pinfall, submission, knockout.

 

Barbed Wire is ok but better as fencing and not ropes.

 

I can handle Lumberjack matches. But would rather not bother.

 

Tornado tag-team matches can make sense and are bar room brawls,

 

Battle Royals are the shits for the most part. Including the Royal Rumble. Although it's superior to the traditional Battle Royal.

 

 

 

As for Ladders. They're fuckin ridiculous. Just to damn much suspension of disbelief. It's acrobatic-gymkata horseshit. Toss in tables and chairs and it's even worse. I understand the racecar crash appeal. Just not my thing. I except the idea of a Scaffold (Shitty gimmick as well) over a Ladder.

 

My favorite Ladder match I ever saw (live) was Blanchard vs. Rhodes. The ladder was just there to grab the bag of cash.

[Slasher]

 

Has there ever been a ladder match where the match strategy was to disable someone's legs via extensive matwork before introducing the ladder?

Yep. Scott Hall vs. Goldberg, Souled Out '99. It sucked.

I never saw that match, so I don't speak with authority about it, but Hall and Goldberg do not strike me as guys capable of making the matwork interesting or even functional. I assume Hall was the one to try the tactic, but there is nothing about him that screams technician. When I asked the question, I was thinking more like a Benoit, a Ric Flair, even a Daniel Bryan or a Bret Hart- someone who knows how to make it look good and that has commanded the fans' interest in that sort of thing. But I should check out the Hall match regardless.

[BillThompson]

The Shawn/Razor ladder rematch was built around a beginning where Razor attacked Shawn's leg with and without the ladder. It was also a medicore match because Shawn decided he didn't want to sell one lick of the leg work long term.

[Jingus]

I never saw that match, so I don't speak with authority about it, but Hall and Goldberg do not strike me as guys capable of making the matwork interesting or even functional. I assume Hall was the one to try the tactic, but there is nothing about him that screams technician. When I asked the question, I was thinking more like a Benoit, a Ric Flair, even a Daniel Bryan or a Bret Hart- someone who knows how to make it look good and that has commanded the fans' interest in that sort of thing. But I should check out the Hall match regardless.

"Matwork" is admittedly stretching the definition of what happened. Goldberg was attacked backstage earlier that night, and went into the match with a knee injury (and a giant black metallic kneebrace, just cuz he didn't already look enough like Stone Cold). They spent the first few minutes basically "they circle, Hall tries something, Goldberg shrugs him off and hits a move, they go back to circling again". Finally, Hall starts kicking Goldberg's leg, and hits a few Flair-style "softening up the knee" moves. That's about it, after that they go straight to the ladder, but Goldberg continues (poorly) selling the knee for the rest of the match.

[Jimmy Redman]

Sheamus vs Morrison from TLC 2010 is what you're looking for in terms of a "leg work" ladder match. It's great shit.

 

Edit: Just read the post properly...I don't know how much leg work, if any, was done BEFORE the ladders.

[The Man in Blak]

Hall/Goldberg feels like an unfair example to me. The whole layout of that match is a disaster and the little bit of legwork is probably the only part that's actually coherent from a storytelling standpoint. (Naturally, Hall abandons it pretty quickly to transition into stock ladder spots to try and pop the crowd.)

 

SS '95 should be a shining example of how it can work but, as Bill mentioned, Shawn basically blows it off for most of the second half of the match.

[victory]

I prefer cage matches. In general any body type or size can have a cage match and make it good or at least have it make sense In the context of the feud.

 

Ladder matches are kind of limited in that they need a really athletic guy or a high flyer to pull if off. Obviously there is exceptions like Blackwell vs DeBeers ( which wasn't bad). Even then they don't always have the best psychology.

 

Cage matches seem to really blow off a feud and ladders just don't have that same feeling IMO.

[Coffey]

I like ladder matches when they have innovative spots & the car crash appeal.

 

I prefer cage matches as a blowoff to a feud, when there isn't any escaping the cage & it's over when one man can't continue.

 

We never get the latter. We get cage matches where people leave through a door & it's one guy running the whole time.

 

Both are overdone nowadays, especially in WWE. I still prefer cage matches though. A lot of stuff in ladder matches is hard to watch as a fan because I just feel like people are going to get injured from the bumps.

[Benbeeach]

I really think the word modern helps shape this.
I think there's a lot of nostalgia and thought processes associated with the old school cage match that brings about certain feelings that may (aren't) necessarily there with the Ladder.

I'd ask the question what are the inherent plusses and pitfalls of each that determine what's better (or what you prefer).
As the "standard feud ender" I guess I buy it, but I don't think that's a slam dunk argument. Kane and Undertaker had an inferno match, was fucking garbage. Sabu and Terry Funk had a barbed wire rope match, thumbs firmly in the middle. Sasha and Bayley had an ironman match, was solid. Feuds can end all types of ways, good and bad.

Are their certain practitioners, wrestler archetypes in each type of that match lead to one being usually better than the other?
I get a more, methodically paced, punchy hate filled vibe from the pro cage match crowd and anti mindless high spot from ladder detractors, sometimes one in the same. I've seen Kurt Angle moonsault off of the top of a cage. I've seen Joey' Mercury's face explode from a ladder shot (could fall into the mindless high spot category if one so chose)

Like others have said, perhaps the two best types of each particular match both occurred in 1994 (escape cage variety, and even then I'm sure there are other contenders, reluctant hate filled brotherly love brawl doesn't exactly typify the cage match proper in my eyes). What was better?

The "a ladder doesn't make sense in a wrestling ring" sentiment kind of doesn't fly with me. I get it on its surface, but it's pro wrestling man, we've already suspended so much. There isn't much that can't be folded into the canon. There are certainly enough quality ladder matches to have justified and earned their keep in the long haul.

How does a top 10 cage match vs top 10 ladder match list compare to one another. I think there would be a lot of quality in both lists. Modern cage vs. Modern Ladder sounds like a wash for the ladder match, but who knows if that's booking or inherent failings.

I don't think Kevin Owens vs. Finn Ballor would've been better off in a cage
I don't think JBL vs. Big Show quite works with a ladder
I have no idea how Jeff Hardy vs. The Undertaker is worked with the opposite gimmick. Could have been just as good but I don't know

[Slasher]

Sheamus vs Morrison from TLC 2010 is what you're looking for in terms of a "leg work" ladder match. It's great shit.

 

Edit: Just read the post properly...I don't know how much leg work, if any, was done BEFORE the ladders.

Actually that was a great match and I accept that as an answer. It doesn't have to necessarily be before the ladder is introduced. I was just thinking of a possible storyline where two guys who are not willing to do the car crash style spotfest, they work a complete wrestling match where the objective is to wear each other down to point of exhaustion or pain that they are physically incapable of climbing the ladder. However I would understand why that match never happened (it would be too boring for those expecting a batshit spotfest). But when you look at the history of Hell in Cell, they have escalated spots from Shawn falling off the sidw to Foley getting thrown completely off the top and then in a different match getting backdropped through the ceiling. Then you see Taker vs Brock which was as violent and brutal and they never leave the cage IIRC (talking about the one in 2002, not this year's). I would like to see gimmick matches kinda get brought back down to earth a bit. The matwork ladder match is just a possible idea for the ladder match.

[Slasher]

Also to address Benbeech, Jeff Hardy vs Taker worked so well because the ladder match was Jeff's signature gimmick match. He refused to lose to Undertaker because he knew exactly how to power through the pains of tbe ladder match having done so many spots in ladder and TLC matches. Couple that with that it was Jeff's first legitimate shot at becoming the world champion, it was all about him throwing everything he could against the bully heel who happens to be less experienced in this gimmick match. He just refused to die because the match was all about him. If he can't win in his own gimmick match, how the hell would he ever be taken seriously as a title contender? It was just great. And it is something they couldn't have translated as well in a cage, even if it would have probably been a better match technically.

[Bierschwale]

Ambrose-Rollins had a ton of "ladder as weapon" and more technical work than an average ladder match.

 

I think that people hate cage matches that are escaping contests and not fights, so ladder matches almost always come off as climbing contests. There's not enough of the sense that it's a fight and that one man is truly DEFEATED.

 

How about a ladder match with Texas death-style rules? Get a pin, and then you have until the opponent can touch the "main" ladder (whichever ladder that the guy who got the fall is climbing) to retrieve the belt. Maybe it's too much like a King of the Mountain match even if it is obviously much less complicated.

[Cap]

Generally speaking, I much prefer cage matches on the whole for the variety of reasons people pointed out here. That said, I have some specific gripes with cage matches and really like ladder matches when they are done right.

 

Ladder matches are more fun to me under two circumstances. First, if the match is between two people who more or less have a match appropriate for a heated blood feud and then work the ladder into that in a way that makes good storytelling sense (selling, psychology, the whole thing people have talked about). When it is one on one and they spend too much time just setting up spots and what not I can stand it. Second, if the match is two on two or a triple threat or four corners and they use the numbers to make sense out of the fact that people aren’t just climbing quickly I get more invested and lose myself in the match. That takes some coordination and it doesn’t always work, but those are typically more satisfying from a logical standpoint. I don’t really love the car crash spot fests (no matter how many people are in it) or ladder matches where they highlight the logical inconsistency of someone selling too long early and the clarity that the other could pretty easily go get the belt if the hassled.

 

I have a very similar problem with escape cage matches. I know a lot of people like them, but I have always disliked the stipulation. To me it lacks coherence. The cage should be something that keeps things in and keeps things out. If you get outside the cage it should feel like a match that has just gotten out of control. The idea that the heel wants to escape is fine and that can be worked into a match, but to watch a face try to escape a cage never felt right to me. Plus, leaving out the door is too obviously easy. Again, if someone hassles they are gone; match over. It is supposed to be the blowoff of a feud and is often designed to keep two people who hate each other in the same spot so they can settle it. Like, take the Colon/Hansen cage match for example. I love that match. I think it works the logic and action of an escape match beautifully, but then at the end Colon just gets up and walks out real fast because he is hussling to get to the brawl outside. It deflated what was such a good match to me, even when I was sort just invested as a fan and not thinking too critically about it. Plus, escape cage matches tend to repeat a limited number of cagetop spots in a way that feels old. Now, pin cage matches, hell in a cell, war games…. AWESOME. I even like a lot of escape matches, but I don’t love the genre.

[theconstipatedsmark]

I'm always surprised they don't have more combination ladder/cage matches. It seems like a fun combination!

[Slasher]

I'm always surprised they don't have more combination ladder/cage matches. It seems like a fun combination!

Because the triple decker cage of doom worked out so well for WCW...

[theconstipatedsmark]

 

I'm always surprised they don't have more combination ladder/cage matches. It seems like a fun combination!

Because the triple decker cage of doom worked out so well for WCW...

 

Actually, the early War Games matches used triple decker cages too and those were a lot of fun.

 

Plus, the kind of match I'm talking about wouldn't be a triple decker cage match. Just a ladder match with a cage around it.

[Slasher]

Ok do you mean a cage that cuts off just beyond the ring ropes/ring posts, or do you mean a Hell in a Cell type cage that includes some of the ringside area? I think a ladder match inside the smaller cage would be a great nuisance to the workers who are forced to work around the ladder. Then you have to ask, is the objective to escape the cage? Grab an item hanging above the ring? Regular pinfall? If it is escape rules, that could create some interesting spots involving Shelton Benjaminesque action but it would get old fairly quick. If its just a pinfall then the ladder is just an unnecessary nuisance, period. Of course, if you use the HIAC type cage, you still have to open up the top so people aren't banging their heads into the mesh ceiling. And that means you can't really dangle that thing above without reinforcing the pulleys or whatever. You'd have to assemble that thing in between matches and those things arent easy or quick to put together.

[SomethingSavage]

Crossbreeding a ladder match with a cage match just seems way too convoluted, cluttered, and unnecessary. What's the purpose? Wrestlers winning titles or settling grudges based on outrunning the other in some sort of obstacle course? Yuck.

 

The closest thing that comes to mind is the ridiculous "Dixie Land" match they had between Jeff Hardy and Magnus a year or two ago. And, outside of Jeff's obligatory suicidal tendency bump of the night, there was nothing there.

[theconstipatedsmark]

Idk bros. I think you dudes are overthinking this one too much, jack. Just have a regular ladder match, but with a cage around it, brutha.

[PhilTLL]

Actually, the early War Games matches used triple decker cages too and those were a lot of fun.

 

Are you thinking of the Tower of Doom e.g. the Great American Bash 88 PPV? Every WarGames until the 2000 mess used the double ring and single-level cage.