Observer HOF prediction/ballot question thread

[Jingus]

It's worth remembering that Bischoff was the only guy who ever made WCW profitable. Bill Watts, Dusty Rhodes, Kevin Sullivan, Ole Anderson, Kevin Nash, those various clueless non-wrestling Turner execs, and especially Vince Russo all utterly failed where Bischoff succeeded. And it's unfair to blame the last two years of the company's most horrific business all on him, considering he'd been removed from power in mid-1999 and wasn't calling any shots after that.

 

I don't even like the guy, I think he's a Trump-esque piece of shit. But it's insane to deny the massive amount of money he made during the good times, and the even more massive overall impact he's had on the nature of the business as a whole.

[Loss]

He was hugely successful. But he was a one-hit wonder. To me, it's like arguing Los Del Mar or Lou Vega for the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame.

[Dylan Waco]

Hope this leads to a discussion on the influence of Right Said Fred

[SlingshotSuplex]

Fairly or not, it seems like Dusty gets more credit for the successes of national-era JCP than Jim Jr. does. I can sort of see it because even at times that the booking was fantastic, they weren't great at promoting themselves, especially not in comparison to Vince McMahon, who was peerless anyway. Vince played dirty against JCP and Clash of the Champions was Crockett's only successful retaliation, but even that backfired.

 

I think the decline of JCP is an interesting topic and if anything, Dusty has taken too much of the blame. He burned out and when they acquired additional time slots with the UWF buyout, he was doing way too much booking for one guy. Crockett really should have had a support system in place to give Dusty time away to recharge for a few months here and there, even if most of the job was just to maintain the status quo until Dusty returned. Guys like Jarrett and Watts were more aware of the potential for booker burnout and did a better job cycling them in and out.

Crockett takes the blame for the collapse, as it all happened on his watch, but I find the discussion on Jr's candidacy tends to overlook the ten year span that led the big semi-national run. HIs dad ran a tight regional promotion. Jr turned the Carolinas into the crown jewel of the NWA for an extended period culminating with Starrcade '83, which as a closed-circuit spectular was a seminal moment that really welcomed wrestling into the modern PPV age. Dusty may be credited with the name, but he wasn't the booker in '83 and didn't make that show happen. And while the fall can't be ignored, the company did reach amazing heights in '85 & '86.

[kjh]

It's worth noting that likely all of Bischoff's predecessors would have turned a small profit if TBS had paid them rights fees for WCW programming.

[Loss]

Hope this leads to a discussion on the influence of Right Said Fred

 

They're too sexy for this thread.

[kjh]

 

Hope this leads to a discussion on the influence of Right Said Fred

 

They're too sexy for this thread.

 

 

Don't be so deeply dippy!

[pantherwagner]

It's worth noting that likely all of Bischoff's predecessors would have turned a small profit if TBS had paid them rights fees for WCW programming.

 

To be fair it' was him that convinced executives that he should be paid for the programming. Others weren't able to do so or didn't think about it.

 

I would never vote for Bischoff as eventually his negatives outweigh the positives by quite a wide margin.

[Loss]

One thing that bugs me with Bischoff is the whole aesthetic of the Worldwide tapings. Did he really not think people at home would be able to figure out that something was up with the crowd reactions? Does he really think that type of crowd reaction is better than a typical arena of wrestling fans? And does he really think their presence at Disney MGM played any role at all in reversing their fortunes?

[MFoy]

Would we give Bischoff credit for making a guy like Rey Mysterio Jr. a star in the US? ECW used him first, yes, and Heyman should get a good amount of credit too, and AAA did well for a while in SoCal, but as far as major promoters with national exposure, how many of them would have considered giving Rey any sort of a push prior to his WCW debut? Would McMahon ever have considered it had Rey not been successful in WCW first?

 

Obviously this is about more than just Rey. He made a variety of styles part of the flavor of WCW during its boom period in a way that the WWF never did, and really still hasn't.

[mookeighana]

(Apologies if this is considered off-topic.)

 

Who would be the ten people that would best fit the bill as 'most controversial members' of the WONHOF? (People already in.)

 

I'd be curious what names would come up as a group consensus.

 

Just thinking about it quickly I'd think the list might include Ted DiBiase, Masakatsu Funaki, Kazushi Sakuraba, Ultimo Dragon, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Steve Williams?

[pantherwagner]

A lot of those wrestlers got in by vote, so most people outside of here and a couple other boards wouldn't really consider them controversial.

 

Of course there's Benoit, but two very controversial names a decade ago were automatic 1996 inductees Bert Assirati (a lot of his claims may have been fiction) and Jackie Fargo (considered "too regional" by some).

[goc]

DiBiase didn't go in by vote but I'm not sure that he would really be considered controversial. I personally think it's silly that he went in apparently on the strength of in ring work alone because that's not exactly a high standard in my view.

[kjh]

Kurt Angle was controversial when he went in because it was in 2004, less than five years after his WWE debut (whilst also missing quite a bit of time due to injuries in '03 and '04). Unlike others whose cases are strengthened post-induction, the fact that his personal demons spiralled out of control less than two years later and he ended up in TNA for the rest of his career, he's still a debatable candidate.

 

I'm of the belief that if DiBiase was put up to a vote he'd have gone in, although maybe not immediately. He seems too highly respected by his peers for him not to make it.

[funkdoc]

Just thinking about it quickly I'd think the list might include Ted DiBiase, Masakatsu Funaki, Kazushi Sakuraba, Ultimo Dragon, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrero, Steve Williams?

 

hase/sasaki/masa saito imo, also would put chono in there over eddie or jericho or dibiase

[Grimmas]

Kurt Angle was controversial when he went in because it was in 2004, less than five years after his WWE debut (whilst also missing quite a bit of time due to injuries in '03 and '04). Unlike others whose cases are strengthened post-induction, the fact that his personal demons spiralled out of control less than two years later and he ended up in TNA for the rest of his career, he's still a debatable candidate.

 

I'm of the belief that if DiBiase was put up to a vote he'd have gone in, although maybe not immediately. He seems too highly respected by his peers for him not to make it.

Angle debatable is too nice. He does not belong in under any terms.

[goc]

I still think Angle would go in today, or at least still receive very strong support from wrestlers. Especially old ones who've probably never seen more than a few Angle matches (if any) but just get a boner off him being an Olympic gold medalist.

[Loss]

I have no problem with guys getting in on work alone, but I think it needs to transcend being a good hand. They either need to work a highly influential style that becomes very popular, or set the standard for how people are expected to work for that spot on the card. In other words, even work alone isn't work alone -- it needs to be revered enough that others are expected to model themselves after it.

[Grimmas]

I still think Angle would go in today, or at least still receive very strong support from wrestlers. Especially old ones who've probably never seen more than a few Angle matches (if any) but just get a boner off him being an Olympic gold medalist.

Which is insane and shows a real problem with the voters.

 

I have no problem with guys getting in on work alone, but I think it needs to transcend being a good hand. They either need to work a highly influential style that becomes very popular, or set the standard for how people are expected to work for that spot on the card. In other words, even work alone isn't work alone -- it needs to be revered enough that others are expected to model themselves after it.

That I agree with in theory. What are the examples of that?

[SlingshotSuplex]

One thing that bugs me with Bischoff is the whole aesthetic of the Worldwide tapings. Did he really not think people at home would be able to figure out that something was up with the crowd reactions? Does he really think that type of crowd reaction is better than a typical arena of wrestling fans? And does he really think their presence at Disney MGM played any role at all in reversing their fortunes?

I know some people love Worldwide because of the unique and random mid-card undercard match ups, but this was my take at the time. The syndicated shows suddenly screamed non-canonical and no need to watch once they hit Disney. Maybe that was the inevitable fate of the syndies in the Monday Night era, but the move to Orlando sped up the process.

[Loss]

 

I still think Angle would go in today, or at least still receive very strong support from wrestlers. Especially old ones who've probably never seen more than a few Angle matches (if any) but just get a boner off him being an Olympic gold medalist.

Which is insane and shows a real problem with the voters.

 

I have no problem with guys getting in on work alone, but I think it needs to transcend being a good hand. They either need to work a highly influential style that becomes very popular, or set the standard for how people are expected to work for that spot on the card. In other words, even work alone isn't work alone -- it needs to be revered enough that others are expected to model themselves after it.

That I agree with in theory. What are the examples of that?

 

 

Ric Flair seemed to create a template for how heel world champs with blond hair are supposed to work. Pre-Stone Cold Austin, Michaels, HHH and probably others all emulated him. For that reason, I'd think he was strong enough to go in on work alone even if he never drew a dime.

 

Guys like Rey and Tiger Mask became superstars in spite of their size and by working a more daredevil style inside a business that feared smaller guys getting over. I wouldn't say they changed the style where everyone was working like them, but they both showed that guys their size could get over and how to go about doing it. I don't mean to compare the two as workers because much of Sayama's work doesn't look great on videotape and Rey's work had more staying power. But Rey's more enduring work wouldn't be his HOF case -- his HOF case would be that he used his in-ring ability to do something guys his size pretty much never did in wrestling.

[Loss]

 

One thing that bugs me with Bischoff is the whole aesthetic of the Worldwide tapings. Did he really not think people at home would be able to figure out that something was up with the crowd reactions? Does he really think that type of crowd reaction is better than a typical arena of wrestling fans? And does he really think their presence at Disney MGM played any role at all in reversing their fortunes?

I know some people love Worldwide because of the unique and random mid-card undercard match ups, but this was my take at the time. The syndicated shows suddenly screamed non-canonical and no need to watch once they hit Disney. Maybe that was the inevitable fate of the syndies in the Monday Night era, but the move to Orlando sped up the process.

 

 

To me, the biggest issue was just that it was so obvious there was no real emotion in the building. Pro had much quieter crowds and was more of an afterthought during the same time period, but it was by far the more watchable show because they played to actual arena crowds ... until that show went to MGM in '96 and suffered the same fate.

[Grimmas]

 

 

I still think Angle would go in today, or at least still receive very strong support from wrestlers. Especially old ones who've probably never seen more than a few Angle matches (if any) but just get a boner off him being an Olympic gold medalist.

Which is insane and shows a real problem with the voters.

 

I have no problem with guys getting in on work alone, but I think it needs to transcend being a good hand. They either need to work a highly influential style that becomes very popular, or set the standard for how people are expected to work for that spot on the card. In other words, even work alone isn't work alone -- it needs to be revered enough that others are expected to model themselves after it.

That I agree with in theory. What are the examples of that?

 

 

Ric Flair seemed to create a template for how heel world champs with blond hair are supposed to work. Pre-Stone Cold Austin, Michaels, HHH and probably others all emulated him. For that reason, I'd think he was strong enough to go in on work alone even if he never drew a dime.

 

Guys like Rey and Tiger Mask became superstars in spite of their size and by working a more daredevil style inside a business that feared smaller guys getting over. I wouldn't say they changed the style where everyone was working like them, but they both showed that guys their size could get over and how to go about doing it. I don't mean to compare the two as workers because much of Sayama's work doesn't look great on videotape and Rey's work had more staying power. But Rey's more enduring work wouldn't be his HOF case -- his HOF case would be that he used his in-ring ability to do something guys his size pretty much never did in wrestling.

 

That is why I said in theory, because those guys get in for work and influence, and drawing too.

[funkdoc]

yea loss's definition there basically guarantees anyone who fits it would be an influence candidate as well. dynamite, benoit, bret, & shawn would be other obvious examples.

[shakla]

On Bischoff, to me, it's more that he was on the ballot in the old days and fell-off around the time of WCW's death, rather than when his career was complete. He got less than 10% in 2001, and I don't think he was a one-and-done, think he stayed on at least a year before that. Looking here (http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000499) there's a few people who dropped off early on, but it was while they were still active in the big leagues. Especially a lot of the 1998 names. I think Bischoff is worth putting back on at some point, depending on how many are elected this year.