Observer HOF prediction/ballot question thread

[Parties]

Also worth noting that Apter almost certainly would have gotten in if the Reporters (#4) ranking of Weston had gone to Apter instead. It's a situation in which the Reporters may be right and everyone else wrong, though I still don't have a clear sense of whether Apter's being modest or truthful when he gives all the credit of editorial vision to Weston. Apter will almost certainly get in first due to name association, unless perception changes over time. As clear a case as any of two candidates splitting votes and neither getting in despite coming quite close.

[Childs]

So is the argument against Nak that he was too young? Or is it a case of people being mad Bryan didn't get in? I'm a casual NJPW fan but it seems like he was the guy on top during their peak times and of course brings it in the ring, Seemingly he has all the usual HOF bases covered.

He wasn't the guy on top, and the NJ resurgence is what, a three-year phenomenon? It's not that Nakamura would necessarily be a poor choice in 10 years. It's that we've had insufficient time to gain perspective on NJ's relative boom period or Nak's role in it. And I say all that as someone who believes he's the best in the world on his good nights.

[Sean Liska]

If Nak was "on top" during a "peak time", then Orton should be in for having the same role in a company twenty times bigger.

[Jmare007]

So is the argument against Nak that he was too young? Or is it a case of people being mad Bryan didn't get in? I'm a casual NJPW fan but it seems like he was the guy on top during their peak times and of course brings it in the ring, Seemingly he has all the usual HOF bases covered.

 

He wasn't really the guy on top for New Japan's resurgence (wouldn't call it peak). In fact he meant very little to New Japan when he was pushed as the top guy for a couple of years. He also doesn't have a lot of time as a great worker, and he's still very inconsistent. In 10-15 more years he'd probably be a lock, but right now I don't think it's even close.

 

 

If Nak was "on top" during a "peak time", then Orton should be in for having the same role in a company twenty times bigger.

 

Exactly

[kjh]

Bryan not doing well with current wrestlers surprises me because wrestlers don't seem to care as much anymore about who draws money and everyone seems to take pride in the performance aspect. Contrast that with Benoit, who performed in an era where wrestlers seemed to value drawing money a hell of a lot more, yet he commanded a lot more respect among his peers than Bryan does ... for whatever reason.

 

One difference was that Benoit was brought into WWE near the top of the card, whilst Bryan really didn't get to that level until the summer of 2013.

[JonnyBart]

I like this Hall of Fame better: http://halfguarded.com/2015-pro-wrestling-hall-of-fame/

[bradhindsight]

Active wrestlers having Colon #2 and Historians having Colon #14 seems so counter intuitive to me.

[Loss]

The whole thing suggests lots of voters are in the wrong buckets.

[kjh]

Active wrestlers having Colon #2 and Historians having Colon #14 seems so counter intuitive to me.

 

Historians are likely to be more hung up on the fact that Colon wasn't much of a star or draw outside of Puerto Rico and also the Brody murder. It's not really that surprising.

[Parties]

Here's the full breakdown for posterity. Story remains the same. Reporters have way too many present-day candidates. Historians have by far the best list, even if they ranked Lesnar, Nakamura, and Aguayo too high. Former Wrestlers are all over the map, resistant to voting in candidates who are still working, and span all nations. Active Wrestlers have by far the weirdest list, and not one you'd expect from them (Bob Ellis? Byers? Ron Wright? The Von Brauners?). Overall it feels like Japan didn't do well at all outside of Nakamura, while Lucha overall did better than I'd have expected. Also kind of seems like late 80s/90s/Attitude nostalgia is waning, or that those generations have been thoroughly picked over: most of the top candidates are either really young or really old, which kind of makes sense in the YouTube era.

 

REPORTERS: 1. The Assassins 2. Bryan Danielson 3. Shinsuke Nakamura 4. Stanley Weston 5. Perro Aguayo Jr. 6. Brock Lesnar 7. Jim Crockett Sr. 8. Gene Okerlund 9. Carlos Colon 10. Villano III 11. Mike & Ben Sharpe 12. Ivan Koloff 13. Cien Caras 14. Edge 15. Big Daddy 16. Los Misioneros de la Muerte 17. Sting 18. Jerry Jarrett 19. Howard Finkel 20. Minoru Suzuki 21. Blue Panther 22. Jimmy Hart 23. Volk Han 24. Bill Apter 25. L.A. Park 26. Ultimo Guerrero 27. Red Bastien 28. June Byers 29. Kiyoshi Tamura 30. Don Owen

HISTORIANS 1. Volk Han 2. Ivan Koloff 3. Brock Lesnar 4. Shinsuke Nakamura 5. Gary Hart 6. George Gordienko 7. Los Misioneros de la Muerte 8. Jerry Jarrett 9. Villano III 10. Perro Aguayo Jr. 11. Karloff Lagarde 12. Blue Panther 13. Bill Apter 14. Carlos Colon 15. Mark Lewin 16. Don Owen 17. Sting 18. Bryan Danielson 19. Los Brazos 20. Cien Caras 21. Howard Finkel 22. The Assassins 23. Jackie Pallo 24. Jimmy Hart 25. Gene Okerlund 26. Stanley Weston 27. L.A. Park 28. June Byers 29. Jim Crockett Sr. 30. Killer Karl Kox

FORMER WRESTLERS 1. Cien Caras 2. Mike & Ben Sharpe 3. Bill Apter 4. Gene Okerlund 5. John Tolos 6. Enrique Torres 7. Shinsuke Nakamura 8. Curt Hennig 9. Ricki Starr 10. Red Bastien 11. Jim Crockett Sr. 12. Ivan Koloff 13. Don Owen 14. Killer Karl Kox 15. Carlos Colon 16. Edge 17. Domenic DeNucci 18. Mark Lewin 19. Jerry Jarrett 20. Johnny “Wrestling II” Walker 21. Perro Aguayo Jr. 22. Los Brazos 23. Los Misioneros de la Muerte 24. The Assassins 25. Jun Akiyama 26. Brute Bernard & Skull Murphy 27. Larry Matysik 28. Rollerball Mark Rocco 29. Brock Lesnar 30. Sting

ACTIVE WRESTLERS 1. Jim Crockett Sr. 2. Carlos Colon 3. The Assassins 4. Perro Aguayo Jr. 5. Rollerball Mark Rocco 6. Johnny Saint 7. Gary Hart 8. Shinsuke Nakamura 9. Brock Lesnar 10. Villano III 11. Dr. Wagner Jr. 12. Johnny “Wrestling II” Walker 13. Sting 14. Gene Okerlund 15. Bill Apter 16. Howard Finkel 17. Yuji Nagata 18. Akira Taue 19. Ron Wright 20. Jimmy Hart 21. Curt Hennig 22. Ivan Koloff 23. June Byers 24. Von Brauners w/Saul Weingeroff 25. Cowboy Bob Ellis 26. Tim “Mr. Wrestling” Woods 27. Junkyard Dog 28. Jerry Jarrett 29. Edge 30. Sgt. Slaughter

[elliott]

I skimmed through today's posts and so forgive me if someone already posted it, but who fell off never to return? (please don't say Villano III)

 

Can someone hook Dave up with El Boriqua so Carlos Colon gets a proper bio?

[Parties]

Zellner seemed to be saying on Twitter that Nagata was now off the ballot, which I don't think is correct. By “significant drop” I think Dave just meant that Nagata's percentage plunged, but that he's still on the ballot. The only names to actually fall off the ballot with less than 10% were Bob Geigel, AJ Styles, Big Show, and Hector Garza. Dave is already planning to put Styles back on for the third time in 2017, which - as others have already said - flexes a pretty lame bias.

[elliott]

That last bit about AJ is staggering.

 

edit: How many people have fallen off twice and been brought back on? With the 15 years on the ballot rule, will AJ's 15 years start with 2017, 2015 or whatever year he fell off before?

[DR Ackermann]

What is the reasoning for putting AJ back on if he has fallen off twice? Is it just because Meltzer wants to and its as simple as that?

[cheapshot]

Keith Harris raised an interesting point earlier on twitter: So Kerry Von Erich should be barred from the ballot by virtue of the 15 year rule, as he was on the ballot in 1999. He's suggested to Dave putting Kerry, Kevin & David on as a group, as an alternative.

[WingedEagle]

If I'm reading this correctly, Danielson wasn't among the top 30 as voted by current or former wrestlers. That is absolutely mind boggling.

[WingedEagle]

If I'm reading this correctly, Danielson didn't place in the to 30 as voted by current or former wrestlers. That is absolutely mind boggling.

[JNLister]

Keith Harris raised an interesting point earlier on twitter: So Kerry Von Erich should be barred from the ballot by virtue of the 15 year rule, as he was on the ballot in 1999. He's suggested to Dave putting Kerry, Kevin & David on as a group, as an alternative.

 

Is it not that you have to be on the ballot 15 times before you are permanently excluded? If not, it should be.

[kjh]

I believe Slaughter fell off the ballot in 1999 as well (yet hasn't been removed due to the 15-year rule) according to this Steve Yohe post on Wrestling Classics: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000499

 

Hennig, Lewin, Blue Panther, Sting and Akira Taue all fell off in 1998. I guess the first two years of voting mustn't count or something.

 

[kjh]

No, Caras dropped off in 2001, yet is bound by the 15-year rule.

[Quentin Skinner]

Think we all had a feeling Nak, Perro Jr, and Brock would get in, but it's still disappointing as hell especially on the lucha side. What's the deal with Danielson though? With his recent success in WWE, becoming a star there and then the resume in-ring he's compiled over the years, I don't understand how he wouldn't get in over a Nakamura. That is one I would really need explained to me. Obviously the boom in NJPW's popularity gave Nak a better chance, but I would think Danielson's WWE success would take him over the top.

[pantherwagner]

Think we all had a feeling Nak, Perro Jr, and Brock would get in, but it's still disappointing as hell especially on the lucha side. What's the deal with Danielson though? With his recent success in WWE, becoming a star there and then the resume in-ring he's compiled over the years, I don't understand how he wouldn't get in over a Nakamura. That is one I would really need explained to me. Obviously the boom in NJPW's popularity gave Nak a better chance, but I would think Danielson's WWE success would take him over the top.

 

Nakamura is puzzling. It's weird to see all those people voting in Japan for him but not Akiyama or Taue.

 

The lucha contingent got a small victory as the numbers of Villano III are some sort of a miracle (I was expecting him to drop off forever) and him, Misioneros and Cien Caras would have all probably been in if Aguayo hadn't had such huge support from people that probably only voted for him. It's possible that some or all of them will get in next year (it all will depend of Mistico's support).

[thecubsfan]

The AJ re-entry thing is more clearly explained in the podcast. It's not that AJ is automatically going to be put on in two years.

 

If AJ has another two years like the last two years, where he's a major player in a major promotion, then Dave figures that's four good years as a top guy and he'll be worthy of talking about again. (And since that'll almost have to be in NJPW, he'd go in the Japan section.)

 

If AJ gets hurt or gets downgraded or goes off to NXT or ROH full time, then who knows and maybe he won't be worthy of another vote. Dave's making a big assumption AJ will keep that spot, but maybe he got some feedback that it was too soon for him to be back on the ballot.

[Loss]

That being the logic for putting AJ back on basically proves that guys are put on the ballot too soon.

[GSR]

 

 

Think we all had a feeling Nak, Perro Jr, and Brock would get in, but it's still disappointing as hell especially on the lucha side. What's the deal with Danielson though? With his recent success in WWE, becoming a star there and then the resume in-ring he's compiled over the years, I don't understand how he wouldn't get in over a Nakamura. That is one I would really need explained to me. Obviously the boom in NJPW's popularity gave Nak a better chance, but I would think Danielson's WWE success would take him over the top.

Nakamura is puzzling. It's weird to see all those people voting in Japan for him but not Akiyama or Taue.

 

The lucha contingent got a small victory as the numbers of Villano III are some sort of a miracle (I was expecting him to drop off forever) and him, Misioneros and Cien Caras would have all probably been in if Aguayo hadn't had such huge support from people that probably only voted for him. It's possible that some or all of them will get in next year (it all will depend of Mistico's support).

Madden was someone who's ballot was made public and he only voted for Aguayo in the Lucha category, no-one else. If he did that, you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be more who did the same thing.