Parties Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Dave today called Jericho the second or third most over guy in WWE right now (after Brock, but I assume he's smart enough to add Cena as well), so it's clear that 1) dude loves some Y2J and continues to view him with rose-colored glasses, and 2) maybe he's not always putting as much thought into these questions of when/why/how money's made as certain voters are. (This was in the context of saying that Brock and Jericho are the biggest stars precisely because they're rarely on RAW, given that RAW is damaging the careers of everyone on the roster.) Also: wow, you get ten wrestler selections and five non-wrestlers? Hell, in that case I'd certainly add JYD and Jimmy Hart to my list. And probably Gary Hart too as a fifth non-wrestler pick, as I buy into the legend of him as the creative visionary of World Class, and a great manager before/after. Don Owen has a great case too, but World Class seems so much more influential and profitable in its prime (though that idea may get me hanged by the Portland advocates here). Weird that with ten picks, you can if you're someone only voting in one category then vote for almost everyone in said category. Historical has 15 candidates, but Modern US, Japan, Mexico, Europe, etc. all have 9-13. Could partially explain the perception here from some that the Japanese voters work as a bloc of sorts, but curious then that the Lucha voters are perceived to be all over the map with diverse choices. Probably doesn't help that Dave/Bryan never discuss any of the Lucha candidates or vouch for them the way they have for Edge, Koloff, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I'd put Mike Jackson in over Angle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 This is the ballot of "Dragon King" Karl Stern:It totally blows my mind that someone who fancies himself some kind of expert on old school wrestling, with hundreds of hours of podcasts, would have a ballot this awful. It makes me sick that there are people who form opinions about wrestling history based on his podcasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 This is the ballot of "Dragon King" Karl Stern: It totally blows my mind that someone who fancies himself some kind of expert on old school wrestling, with hundreds of hours of podcasts, would have a ballot this awful. It makes me sick that there are people who form opinions about wrestling history based on his podcasts. So let's be clear, Yes to Edge Yes to Brock Lesnar Yes to Sgt. Slaughter No to Danile Bryan No to JYD No to Ivan Koloff Yes to Huracan Ramirez No to Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo No to Cien Caras No to Ultimo Guerrero No to Karloff Lagarde No to Blue Panther No to El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro No to Villano III No to Dr. Wagner Jr. Ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I'm not well versed enough to talk about the lucha stuff although I know enough to know if you're only voting for Huracan Ramirez out of that whole group you probably shouldn't be voting in the category at all. But the modern candidates? Like what criteria is he using? Edge and no Bryan? Slaughter and no JYD or Ivan Koloff? I called him out about it on twitter, but using Edge vs JYD because their runs on top are of comparable length but JYD was a much bigger transcendent star and meant way more to Mid-South's bottom line than Edge did to WWE's. He was arguing about how much better in the ring Edge is than JYD. Ok you are heavily weighing ring work over all else how the fuck can you not vote Daniel Bryan? And Edge is really not that fucking good in the ring, almost all of Edge's "good" matches are smoke and mirrors gimmick matches. JYD was good at those too. The Ghetto Street Fight and the Dog Collar Match with Butch Reed on NWAClassics are both 4* in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 JYD is a better draw, had more influence, more iconic and a better worker than Edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Edge had a signature spot where he would run toward a guy and hug him to the ground. What's not to love? In fact, Edge *was* love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 How can you vote for Bryan's hug it out work that got him over in the WWE when Edge innovated it in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanClingman Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 JYD is a better draw, had more influence, more iconic Yup, yup, agree here. and a better worker than Edge. I don't really understand how you could say this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 JYD is a better draw, had more influence, more iconic Yup, yup, agree here. and a better worker than Edge. I don't really understand how you could say this. Best JYD matches are as good as best Edge matches. Sure Edge was more smooth and had higher end offense, but the charisma that JYD brought in the ring made his matches better. I'll take Stagger Lee/Bill Watts vs Midnight Express over any Edge match. Heck I'll even take JYD/Tito vs Funks over the majority of Edge matches. Not to mention the cool stuff coming out of the Houston footage. What makes Edge good in the ring? He was a horrible actor who had horrible offense and the majority of his "great" matches involves him spending most of the matches building traps for his opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Higher end offense?? Edge didn't have shit in his arsenal either. Nothing he did looked like it hurt. I struggle to think of any moves besides punches and the running hug. Downward Spiral looked like shit, and Gangrel did that version of the DDT better and Edge never really seemed to stick to using that one anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 There's a perception among many online – largely inspired by Dave – that Edge was a great worker. He's got the spots, character, and bugged-eyed dynamo mannerisms that Meltzer responds to in Jericho, HBK, Tanahashi, Okada, etc. You can argue it to death, but his devotees have bought into the idea of Edge as big match worker who delivered high-workrate main events at Mania and other big PPVs. Plus like Michaels he has a resume of ladder/gimmick matches that a certain sect views as elite/legendary/what wrestling should be on a video game level. What they're responding to is mostly high spots, character, and keeping a fast pace. Match quality is the worst thing to argue for/against in HOF criteria, as Dave views crowd reaction as paramount in determining whether or not a match was great. Taker-HBK is better than Regal-Christian because more people liked it and it was higher on the card. One can't "prove" that Blue Panther has better matches than Randy Orton. Even discussions of who drew tend to become subjective. That's not to say it's pointless to debate one candidate vs. another, but the more incisive point is that Stern probably hasn't seen much old lucha, or didn't enjoy it enough to pursue it further when he did. Thus he should abstain, but didn't. Which in a sense only helps Ramirez without necessarily hurting the other Lucha options. As is the case in balloting for anything, most people aren't voting based on heavy research, comparative analysis, or digging in the crates. They're voting off the unreliable nature of memory, peer pressure/belief, and - above all else - simple X factors of "Do I think he was great?" Or to put it politically: "likeability". Koloff might be a great candidate, but I'm agnostic about him as a persona. Historical would be a category I would have to abstain from, as I can't even tell you from the most arbitrary and biased perspective who I even like in that group, let alone who's most important. How much of a worker do you need to have seen to say Yay or Nay? Five matches? Ten matches? Twenty? Does having not seen enough Lagarde or Ramirez (two guys who could/should probably be historical, not Lucha) disqualify me from thinking many of the Lucha candidates I have seen should be in? My point being: you can always watch more, and you should know what to abstain from, but it's hard for me to judge the voters based on what they have or haven't seen. You can have seen a ton of wrestling and possess vast knowledge - like Stern - and still have shitty taste. You can have taste that totally matches my own and know very little about why you're picking the people you're picking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Well I feel better now at least I trashed Karl's ballot on twitter to the point where he blocked me. But some guy defending him was saying Edge was a much better candidate because JYD was never a "national star" and "You're joking, Mid South was a great territory, but it's a footnote in a long list of them." Someone that stupid should honestly not even be talking about the HOF but I guess that's the kind of ignorant audience who would listen to his podcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingPower Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Do we know that these were Stern's personal picks? I know it was either last year or the year before he formulated his ballot based on listener input on his podcast. I think one year he put his final spot up for vote and then the following year he was doing his entire ballot as an exercise/group think bit on his podcast. At that point I thought Dave should chastise him for it since he wasn't using his own "expertise" and was going to seriously consider the opinions of people who regularly correspond with him over anything "objective". I echo all the sentiments above about how his picks are head scratching but I also found it kind of ironic that the guy that hosts the wrestling history podcast abstained from the historical category. At least he abstained from voting a non-Colon candidate in his region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Do we know that these were Stern's personal picks? I know it was either last year or the year before he formulated his ballot based on listener input on his podcast. I think one year he put his final spot up for vote and then the following year he was doing his entire ballot as an exercise/group think bit on his podcast. At that point I thought Dave should chastise him for it since he wasn't using his own "expertise" and was going to seriously consider the opinions of people who regularly correspond with him over anything "objective". I echo all the sentiments above about how his picks are head scratching but I also found it kind of ironic that the guy that hosts the wrestling history podcast abstained from the historical category. At least he abstained from voting a non-Colon candidate in his region. He was legitimately arguing against JYD in favor of Edge and then blocked me when I got around to asking about why Slaughter was more qualified than Koloff. Whether it was his ballot or not it certainly isn't a good look for his podcast for him to have such a shitty ballot weighted in favor of mostly modern guys. But then from his supporters who jumped to his defense to argue against me it doesn't seem like people who listen to his podcast really know anything about old school wrestling either so it's likely not to affect his reputation among listeners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Wait.. we runs an old school podcast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Wait.. we runs an old school podcast? Yes, I said that in same post that I put up the picture of his ballot. That's "Dragon King Karl" his podcast is hosted on the WON/F4W if I'm not mistaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricR Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Higher end offense?? Edge didn't have shit in his arsenal either. Nothing he did looked like it hurt. I struggle to think of any moves besides punches and the running hug. Downward Spiral looked like shit, and Gangrel did that version of the DDT better and Edge never really seemed to stick to using that one anyway. Edge also had that one move where he grabbed a guy's head and then sat down. It was literally just a guy taking a back bump with Edge's hands on his ears. Also, he clenched his teeth while slicking down his hair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Some of you motherfuckers need to lighten the fuck up. If I suddenly had some dude I didn't personally know start going ape on me on Twitter because of how I voted in a newsletter Hall of Fame, I'd block you, too. 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 It's twitter I never get upset about a block. I took it as a sign of work well done. If it had been some random clown I wouldn't have even bothered arguing it but some people who don't know any better are actually going to listen to his podcasts and use that as a guideline on how to vote for wrestlers they're too lazy to do their own research on. He's going to be considered as an 'expert' by some because he has an old school wrestling podcast hosted on Meltzer's site and as such he's fair game to get called out on having a shitty ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 I'm not as anti-Edge as a lot of people because he at least worked as a heel to draw boos against John Cena at the peak of his fan backlash unlike others, most notably Triple H, in an effort to undermine Cena. That said, I can't foresee ever voting for him. Edge seems destined to hang around at about 30-35% of the vote for 15 years on the ballot, because if he was going in, he'd have done so already, especially with Meltzer championing his cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 Edge also had that one move where he grabbed a guy's head and then sat down. It was literally just a guy taking a back bump with Edge's hands on his ears. When I talk about Edge being the one who introduced stupid looking indieriffic moves with physics that don't make any sense, I think that one is the all-time worse. Plus, you forgot to mention that to accomplish that, Edge himself was talking an ass bump. It's basically Edge taking an ass bump so his opponent takes a regular back bump. Looks awkward as hell, doesn't make sense in any way shape or form. Just fucking grab the guy's head and throw him back on the ground instead of pulling his ears/whatever while you're going along for a useless and stupid bump yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 To me it was always odd that Edge was praised for having cool moves while Kanyon and Nova were laughing stocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 I don't know Dragon King Karl from Dragon Ricky Steamboat, but instead of talking shit about him and his voting decisions, why not invite him here to state his case? I'm certainly curious to hear his reasons. He may decline, but at least a good faith invitation would be better than what's happening currently. Openly bragging about being blocked on Twitter for trolling is not a good look for this forum. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 3, 2015 Report Share Posted October 3, 2015 He wouldn't even argue it on twitter just "listen to my podcast for why" and spending an hour+ listening to an argument he couldn't even be bothered to try and boil down into a few tweets was really not something I had any interest in doing. I barely listen to podcasts of things I actually have an interest in, I'm a reader not a listener and so the prospect of listening to something I'm already fairly sure I'm not going to like and will totally disagree with holds NO appeal to me. And nowhere did I say I trolled him, I wasn't outright disrespectful until he made it clear he was going to let his followers do his arguing for him. I called out him saying that JYD was nowhere in the same ball park as a worker as Edge and he couldn't even be bothered to respond when I pointed out JYD's good matches and the fact that they were gimmick matches couldn't be held against him since that's pretty much all Edge has going for him as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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