JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Bockwinkel puts on a Side Headlock. Opponent tries to counter it with a top wristlock. Bockwinkel pulls him by the hair and puts him back in the Side Headlock. That's way cooler than getting thrown off the top rope. Ridiculously unfair post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 I think it'd also be interesting to compare specific elements: Hope spot cut offs, feeding shines or comebacks, early match "time killing", all of those elements but from the babyface side, southern tag heat, jobber matches, etc. Some of that you get from the sort of role based comparisons that were listed above, but some you can get through looking at a lot of different matches and situations. So much of what Flair does is just taken for granted. Character work? You have to put Flair at GOAT-level for that. I would have him comfortably above Bock for character work, and Bock is at least an 18/20. Work rate? Again Flair is GOAT level, Bock about a 17/20. I listed 13 Flair matches which have between them a staggering level of variety, from sprint brawls to technical broadways to cage matches. In two of them he was working with an injury. And this is just from my picks of his top 13 matches -- it doesn't feature him in any number of other contexts against any number of other opponents. I am not wanting to run Bock down. I will be a very high voter on Bock. I just really do want to drill down into how people feel they are in a position to put Bock over Flair and their reasons. People really feel like they are dismissive of discussing PARTIUCLAR matches when it comes to Flair. Loss and I will bring up lists, and they are dealt with in one or two lines. You can see why I might start to wonder "have these people watched any of this stuff in the past two or three years?" Bock has a recency bias going for him, but the great moments of Flair are so often dealt with lightly and vaguely. There's a REAL reluctance to get down to specifics, which is what we also saw in the Bret thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Also, Bock outside of AWA has not been great from what I've seen. Flair has had matches in the top 10 of every DVDR set he's been on, and JCP set has yet to drop. It's NOT a quantity argument, it's a quality argument. What would people point to for Bock outside of AWA? Loss has posted the list of great Flair outside-of-Crockett a number of times. No one ever cares to actually watch them or comment on them specifically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 You're very spirited about this. I don't like giving numerical values to things but as we get closer I'm happy to make qualitative comparisons on various metrics. Something like "character-work" has to be unpacked further I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Parv, you understand Flair is a dead lock to beat Bockwinkel in the final vote, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR Ackermann Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Also, Bock outside of AWA has not been great from what I've seen. Flair has had matches in the top 10 of every DVDR set he's been on, and JCP set has yet to drop. It's NOT a quantity argument, it's a quality argument. What would people point to for Bock outside of AWA? Loss has posted the list of great Flair outside-of-Crockett a number of times. No one ever cares to actually watch them or comment on them specifically. His Memphis matches with Lawler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 I am because it's like, I dunno, talking to someone making a Neil Young vs. Bob Dylan comparison and posting a list of Highway 61 Revisted, Blonde on Blonde, John Wesley Harding, Blood on the Tracks, etc. etc., them saying "yeah, Dylan did have great albums, sure, but ... I love Zuma, lol". It's not really up to par with the level of discussion and analysis that I've come to expect of this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Yeah, I'll listen to Cortez the Killer over any Bob Dylan classic album, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Why are you presuming everyone considers Dylan's/Flair's work as great as you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Why are you presuming everyone considers Dylan's/Flair's work as great as you do? Which matches don't you consider to be great and why? I want specifics, not the endless tired vagueries and generalisations that I've been seeing for the past two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 I will do real time note taking on Flair in November and post it, like I did on big Misawa matches for remedial wrestling on DVDVR. If matches that you want me to see aren't online, get them online by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 I want specifics, not the endless tired vagueries and generalisations that I've been seeing for the past two years. As you wish good sir: 90. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (11/15/89) 27. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk (7/23/89) Watched these two recently, thought they were very good brawls but nothing transcedental, just made me wish Funk was wrestling someone I liked more since he really carried the matches with his selling and acting. They were fun brawls but also largely punch/chop matches and definitely not all time classics in the genre. I'd have them around **** and give most credit to Funk. Do we have any Bockwinkel vs Funk other than their July 83 All Japan match? That one was really good. Not sure I'd rank it higher than the Flair/Funk matches but they were a good showcase for both guys' matwork, which is an area in which Flair sucks. 83. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90) http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28582-ric-flair/?p=5682309 71. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard vs Lex Luger, Barry Windham & Sting (04/03/88) Not sure if I've seen this and if I have I certainly haven't reviewed it. I'll check and be back with a review. 68. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86) http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28582-ric-flair/?p=5682785 45. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (12/28/85)42. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair (9/26/87) I tried to find the match where Garvin won the title on the interwebs but came up short, the Starrcade match and the studio match I've already reviewed: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28582-ric-flair/?p=5682309 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/28582-ric-flair/?p=5682785 It's cool that they do a lot of chops but I don't think these are intrinsically better than an even remotely important Yuji Okabayashi match and he's a guy I might consider for a #98 spot. 29. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83) I hate every Jumbo/Flair match that ever took place and watching them is the least fun I've had watching wrestling. This is probably the hour long match where they circle jerk a bunch with matwork, then suddenly start doing moves. Wasn't much different than watching an Eddie Edwards match except there was a bigger crowd. Vastly prefered Kabuki vs Flair to this.It may have gone overboard in repetition but at least it was enjoyable for what it was (a nonsensical brawl). I don't think Jumbo and Flair had the matwork and the layout to do an epic right the way they wanted to do it. I do have a high appreciation for the Bockwinkel/Jumbo matches. 19. Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner vs. Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham & Sid Vicious (2/24/91) I watched the Wargames matches before I became as analytical of pro-wres as I am now, I didn't think they were close to being ***** when I did but I guess this one's due a rewatch. I hope this is the one where Sid Powerbombs someone on the roof of the cage and then headdrops him. 64. Anderson, Flair, Blanchard, Luger and Dillon vs. Nikita Koloff, Dusty Rhodes, The Road Warriors and Paul Ellering (7/4/87) Another wargames match that warrants a rewatch. 37. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (5/7/89)10. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (2/20/89) 1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat (4/2/89) I really loved the Flair/Steamboat matches when I first saw them but I can't convince myself to spend 2 hours rewatching them when there's a plethora of great matches I haven't seen out there. I also watched a match they had in All Japan in 1983(?) recently and thought it was barely above average so that didn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Great that people are open to watching more Flair matches, but I don't see how anyone learns more about Bockwinkel by watching more Flair matches. And that was my point -- not that people aren't giving Flair a fair shake and checking out more of his matches, but rather that comparisons of Bockwinkel to Flair fall short when the comparison points are Bockwinkel's highlights as opposed to a more holistic look at Flair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Even if I disagree with his conclusions strongly enough to the point where I can barely take them seriously, I do think it's excellent that GOTNW has put in the legwork and come to them. That's all I can ask for. If you come out of watching all that and still don't think Flair is a great or still think Bock is the better worker, there's nothing else to be said. It's just that I want detail on the specifics. Fair is fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Parv what is the lowest Flair could be without it being laughable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Great that people are open to watching more Flair matches, but I don't see how anyone learns more about Bockwinkel by watching more Flair matches. And that was my point -- not that people aren't giving Flair a fair shake and checking out more of his matches, but rather that comparisons of Bockwinkel to Flair fall short when the comparison points are Bockwinkel's highlights as opposed to a more holistic look at Flair. If I had more Bock to watch, I would watch it. There's the IWA at some point right? The "well what do Bock's bad performances look like?" Is a false requirement if he simply doesn't have many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Parv what is the lowest Flair could be without it being laughable? It's your own list, you can do what you want with it. If it is "Greatest" rather than just a list of your favourite guys, that's something for you to agonise over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Parv what is the lowest Flair could be without it being laughable?It's your own list, you can do what you want with it. If it is "Greatest" rather than just a list of your favourite guys, that's something for you to agonise over. I know and with that Flair is 4-10 for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Perhaps the nominating committee can list all of the AWA and All Japan matches featuring Bockwinkel that were watched and didn't make the set. 70s Bock would be great to have more of, of course (even 80s Flair would be great to have more of), but my point is that there's more out there on tape of 80s Bockwinkel. The AWA set wasn't meant to be a complete look at Bockwinkel, or even an in-depth one, really. So there's plenty more where that came from that should be easily accessible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Different people will value certain things differently, Parv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Different people will value certain things differently, Parv. Looking at GOTNW's ratings for some of those matches and the fact he called "Flair vs. Jumbo" the most painful experience he's ever had watching wrestling, I can see that. But y'know, there are places where I'd get laughed out of the building for my views on Shawn Michaels, so hey ho. I despise relativism but also concede that there is no alternative to it. Then again, no one is going to have Ludwig Borga in their top 100, so maybe there is some sense of shared value and more than the "different strokes" thing can account for. Let's not get bogged down in it though. I look forward to your reviews in November. Try not to go in with an agenda, I found it liberating to watch Dory without "this is going to be boring / suck" predetermining my response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 Flair is my working #10 or #11. I don't mind watching matches from a wrestler I would rate over so many of my personal favorites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 27, 2015 Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 On the subject of recency bias, Parv recently suggested that Jumbo has jumped ahead of Flair. This after years of slandering people and questioning the motivations of anyone who dared challenge the idea of Flair as number one. The big change it seems is that Parv has watched a lot of Jumbo. Recency bias? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2015 On the subject of recency bias, Parv recently suggested that Jumbo has jumped ahead of Flair. This after years of slandering people and questioning the motivations of anyone who dared challenge the idea of Flair as number one. The big change it seems is that Parv has watched a lot of Jumbo. Recency bias? It is not recency bias, it is a quantity thing - which is basically that Jumbo has a really stellar 70s and Flair doesn't (that we have on tape, although he is GOOD on garbage tape stuff), and that's the margin. He also has more matches I've given 5 stars. When it comes down to such a small margin, then I'll go with measurables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest si oem Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 In the GWE Marathon at 9pm EST tonight we're doing a Flair match, then a Bockwinkel match, a Flair match, a Bockwinkel match, alternating each guy for the next twenty four hours. No Kelsey Grammar, though, which is fucking BULLSHIT, but this is pro wrestling only. He had Flair's nose for cocaine and heart for troubled women as well as Bockwinkel's hair and erudite vocabulary. Fraiser was a heat machine. taima.tv/r/gwemarathon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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