GOTNW Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 While I was watching Sasha-Bayley from the latest Takeover I finally realised how it works. Actually I kind of knew it all along but I managed to truly transform the intangible into the tangible. There is a certain vision of pro wrestling that used to exist in the US. A very masculine, misogynistic, racist version. Whatever insults you want to throw at it.......it deserves it. It never truly went away. Even just a few years ago there were bikini contests and such. You don't even need to go that far-you can look at how women are treated on WWE's main programming right now. NXT differs from that. A lot. Even back when Cesaro-Zayn and Paige-Emma were the featured matches you had them both end in a post-match hug. Women are featured in a vastly different role, given personalities and aren't treated like sexual objects. They've started main eventing. After the last few Takeovers the NXT "epics" have really formed an identity of their own. What's really important now is putting over everyone involved in the match, ignoring everything established in kayfabe and making sure everyone gets the crowd to chant for them positively so they can hug, take pictures with each other and talk about how great and revolutionary NXT is. And also HHH and Stephanie have to be there so they can take pictures with everyone too so we can see how awesome they are. Everything is super pc, everyone rules, everything is great. The only real opposers of this coming to life are the smarky male Full Sail fans that will chant shit at Corbin/Eva Marie etc. NXT has used this wildly different approach to, essentially, become wrestling for girls. That's why the crowd demographic has started to change, that's why the sleaziness has been reduced and that's why we'll probably see kayfabe-breaking post match expressions of affection for Will to shit on for years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ready_Willing_Gable Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I think they can chill out on kayfabe breaking on shows after this point. Fans in the know will have likely heard Sasha on Y2J's podcast and seen the network shows etc. that we can go back to presenting traditionally (but better than that, obviously) Sasha's story really resonates with me, I feel almost as though I'm living vicariously through her. I'm female too, we're both 23, started watching at similar times, Eddie Guerrero was both of our first wrestling hero. I'm so proud of her for being 9 or fucking 10 and seeing the problem in the despicable women's presentation at the time. 04/05 were arguably worse than key attitude era years in that regard. So proud she never was gonna play by those rules, but she still adored what she watched nonetheless and was set out to do it Right. I'm somebody with no wrestling-watching pals, the stigma has well and truly fucked the brand in feminist/lefty/queer circles so I keep it to myself, my little solitary hobby but people like Sasha and Bayley make me want to grab my pals attention and be like "look! look at this awesome shit right here!" and hey maybe I'll give it a shot. If it continues to engage me who's as PC as anybody (if a bit drunk and sweary) then it can engage a whole new generation of fans. Can't complain about the kayfabe breaking whatsoever because it all should be put into context, but we all know what it's about by now, and until a time comes when they either main event a WWE show or have a 25 minute blinder on one - they can save this stuff. We shouldn't forget that this messy (Women's) Revolution is still so much better than what we've had in such recent times, but of course, it doesn't feel like enough, but we can put that down to the Raw team not putting nearly enough trust into/not knowing how to present all of it's immense talent it has at the moment, male or female. This is why, without wanting to sound like an ingrate because I can't help but mostly respect Vince, but I really cannot wait for him to step down as I don't think he's the man to take the company into it's next great era (if they have one in them) and hope for a real creative and presentation overhaul on main-brand shows. People complain about 3 hours, that it's a slog but I don't think it's the key issue, they just can't fill it with enough good things, which they have no excuse for in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I think they can have all of that and it being really great, but don't over do it on the kayfabe breaking stuff. They explained it away well with Sasha, but every match can not be that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Also, they can make a delineation on screen. Sasha giving Izzy her flowers is okay. Them showing it as part of the live special would not be not ok. Them showing it on a backstage special is maybe ok. The curtain call was okay. Them showing it on a backstage special was probably okay. Them showing it on the live special was probably not ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny P Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I'm in agreement with all of this, especially Matt D's lines of delineation. I'm also someone who argued heavy for that (in my opinion) great moment on the NXT Brooklyn special where the 4 woman got in the ring and raised the 4 symbol, shared hugs, tears, etc. I've battled back and forth with Will ob the reaction shows on this, and I DO respect his point. I get wanting to see the hate and not wanting a character to break that on screen. I like that they didn't show the Izzy gets Sasha's flower thing on TV, but also that it happened. That was a perfect heel move on her part and got myself and that crowd emotionally involved to another level. The little girl was crying, it was a great visual, it drew me in. But after the show...why the fuck ruin that poor little girl's night? That's my point on this. Let her know, "hey, it's okay. Thanks for coming. We value you. And next time I'll give you a wink. Just keep doing what you're doing. So as long as we can wall this and compartmentalize it, I'm cool. And we can still have the hate, and the heeling, and...okay, we don't get the blood, and sometimes I do miss the drama of that, but frankly, it is pretty jarring now seeing that as a 34 year old, especially when it has been essentially wiped from wrestling. 16 year old me at an ECW show was in awe of it, enticed by it, and at the same time frightened by it. But there's no real "safe" magic trick to that one. You cut yourself and bleed. That's just self-mutilation under the guise, or context, of performance art. Prob a step beyond now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I personally don't care about blood even a little anymore. After watching for so long, blading has become so super obvious that it exposes the performance for little return. I find blood distracts more than it adds a lot of the time. Hardways are of course different and still add something but I don't want people trying to do them if they can help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 The kayfabe breaking is what it is. To me, the bigger offense is the heavy-handedness of it all. It comes across really desperate and calculated. As I mentioned in the other thread, there is too much reflection on self, the importance of self, and self's place in the WWE cannon. The motivation of almost every character in the company -- first and foremost -- is to make history. Hey, we reflect on a lot of that stuff here, and if I was a wrestler, I'd probably be interested in my place in history too. But my character wouldn't obsess over it like that. No moments or careers get to speak for themselves anymore. To me, the post-match last night represented that ("We're so moved by our own artistic statement that we can't even hide tears") more than it was a defiant statement that wrestling is fake. I've come to accept it as part of WWE so much that it didn't ruin the show last night or anything like that, but it would have been better without that. We should be congratulating them on a great match instead of them congratulating themselves. And as much as I did like that match, we've all seen much better matches without the immediate and public reflection on a job well done tacked onto the end. Wrestlers used to get heat for being too openly proud of their matches in the locker room -- now they even do it on camera. Phrases like "Match of the Year" and "Wrestlemania moment" are for nerds like us -- they should never be uttered on a wrestling show. Postmodernism and wrestling are strange bedfellows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ready_Willing_Gable Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 What's the issue with "Wrestlemania moment"? Say the football world cup is on, do players not want to get their world cup moment even though they play the sport each week? Wanting to do something on the biggest stage is pretty basic ambition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 It's not the wanting it, it's the yammering on about it, and in real time at that. And for wrestling, it's a relatively new phenomenon. We used to criticize wrestling for ignoring its history too much, but in retrospect, that was a much better approach. I now long for the days when Demolition could become the longest-reigning WWF tag team champions of all time and the announcers wouldn't even mention it because everything was about right here and right now (as opposed to Then, Now, Forever), as much as it bugged me at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 In real sports, those types of moments happen organically. If your openly trying to create that moment your seen as being selfish, and worse, if you screw up in that moment you will be infamous for the rest of your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Its like the wide receiver who wants to make sure he catches a touchdown in the Super Bowl but doesn't care if his team wins. Its about stealing the show by having a great performance and not really caring about winning. It's what goddamn Shawn Michaels has wrought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ready_Willing_Gable Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 thats where the comparison between team sports and a scripted singles sport ends, surely. if you're not being selfish in a combat sport, good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 In a real combat sport the objective is to be victorious. Not to be the guy with the most memorable match. Although you do see fight bonuses be given to guys with the best knockout or submission or whatever, that is only secondary to the fact that you...won the fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 There are guys in the UFC who actively go after the "Fight of the Night" bonus. They are usually not top contenders though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 The kayfabe breaking is what it is. To me, the bigger offense is the heavy-handedness of it all. It comes across really desperate and calculated. As I mentioned in the other thread, there is too much reflection on self, the importance of self, and self's place in the WWE cannon. The motivation of almost every character in the company -- first and foremost -- is to make history. Hey, we reflect on a lot of that stuff here, and if I was a wrestler, I'd probably be interested in my place in history too. But my character wouldn't obsess over it like that. No moments or careers get to speak for themselves anymore. To me, the post-match last night represented that ("We're so moved by our own artistic statement that we can't even hide tears") more than it was a defiant statement that wrestling is fake. I've come to accept it as part of WWE so much that it didn't ruin the show last night or anything like that, but it would have been better without that. We should be congratulating them on a great match instead of them congratulating themselves. And as much as I did like that match, we've all seen much better matches without the immediate and public reflection on a job well done tacked onto the end. Wrestlers used to get heat for being too openly proud of their matches in the locker room -- now they even do it on camera. Phrases like "Match of the Year" and "Wrestlemania moment" are for nerds like us -- they should never be uttered on a wrestling show. Postmodernism and wrestling are strange bedfellows. Great post. I will say that I could juuust about tolerate it this time, because at least they were doing something historic in main eventing the show. The problem is I really, really doubt it stops here, because ultimately this is all about putting Triple H over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Jesus Making Pancakes Christ...GET OUT OF MY HEAD LOSS! Every time I am about to reply to these threads, Loss sums it all up. There is NOTHING wrong with the 4 Horsewomen sharing a moment. That's fine. But Vince/Steph/Dunn/HHH/Whomever telling Charlotte and Becky to go out there and hug and pose to the end show- that's bullshit. It wasn't a truly genuine moment and was calucalated. I remember watching a video of Michael Jackson's rehesarsal of a show part of the HIStory tour and during this reherasal (in an empty stadium), he begins practicing his 'I Love You' that he would say to the crowd during show time. He was practicing what should be completely sincere and spontaneous. I guess this all goes back to Loss thread about WWE being sincere in its charity work. WWE is so self-aware that the charity work doesn't come off as sincere and the 'special' moments don't come off as organic but more of 'Hey you stand here- and you stand over there' type of special moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Do you remember the post-RAW Flair celebration they did in 2003? (Not "Leave The Memories Alone" in 2008, the one before it. It's on the first Flair DVD that sold so well.) It's fascinating to watch because if you pay close attention, HHH is literally directing traffic to get people out of the ring so they don't ruin *his* big "I love Ric Flair" moment. Once you see it, you can't un-see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I found Bayley directing traffic before the match so that she could do her pose in the side of the ring Sasha and the ref were in kind of amusing. That just brought it to mind. Sasha was very agreeable to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 While I was watching Sasha-Bayley from the latest Takeover I finally realised how it works. Actually I kind of knew it all along but I managed to truly transform the intangible into the tangible. There is a certain vision of pro wrestling that used to exist in the US. A very masculine, misogynistic, racist version. Whatever insults you want to throw at it.......it deserves it. It never truly went away. Even just a few years ago there were bikini contests and such. You don't even need to go that far-you can look at how women are treated on WWE's main programming right now. NXT differs from that. A lot. Even back when Cesaro-Zayn and Paige-Emma were the featured matches you had them both end in a post-match hug. Women are featured in a vastly different role, given personalities and aren't treated like sexual objects. They've started main eventing. After the last few Takeovers the NXT "epics" have really formed an identity of their own. What's really important now is putting over everyone involved in the match, ignoring everything established in kayfabe and making sure everyone gets the crowd to chant for them positively so they can hug, take pictures with each other and talk about how great and revolutionary NXT is. And also HHH and Stephanie have to be there so they can take pictures with everyone too so we can see how awesome they are. Everything is super pc, everyone rules, everything is great. The only real opposers of this coming to life are the smarky male Full Sail fans that will chant shit at Corbin/Eva Marie etc. NXT has used this wildly different approach to, essentially, become wrestling for girls. That's why the crowd demographic has started to change, that's why the sleaziness has been reduced and that's why we'll probably see kayfabe-breaking post match expressions of affection for Will to shit on for years to come. Did you just call me a masculine, misogynistic, racist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I thought that was implied in the "from Texas" part of your character's name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted October 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Did you just call me a masculine, misogynistic, racist? Urgh no. It could also be argued that Triple H's (and Stephanie's) presence is a big part of why Rollins isn't taken seriously as a world champion. Sure, the booking isn't very good, and he probably shouldn't have been in that position in the first place, but they haven't helped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 There is NOTHING wrong with the 4 Horsewomen sharing a moment. That's fine. The thing that irked me about it was that it was just those four. At they very least, Paige, Emma, the rest of the active NXT women's roster, and Sara Del Ray should have been up there too. It should have been a moment celebrate what NXT has done for women in wrestling. I'm surprised that people are just upset about the post match stuff breaking kayfabe. Everybody in that building just flat out ignored it from the start of the entrances till about five minutes into the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 I personally don't mind the kayfabe breaking stuff in NXT, because it is kind of what makes NXT charming. We know that these are people trying to make a name for themselves in the business. We are kind of watching a show that we don't necessarily need to see. The fact that these guys and girls are so good that there is a demand to watch them is kind of outside of the actual purpose of what we are watching. The entire goal of NXT is for the wrestlers to get over to the point that they are called up to the main show. We know that this is a product that is more of an extended rehearsal than opening night at the show. Sasha and Bayley being happy that they nailed their performance is kind of the reaction someone would have when they nailed an audition. Is Sasha disappointed she lost? Yes, but in the world that NXT exists putting on a great performance means just as much. Winning the championship is a goal, it just isn't the only goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 The kayfabe breaking is what it is. To me, the bigger offense is the heavy-handedness of it all. It comes across really desperate and calculated. As I mentioned in the other thread, there is too much reflection on self, the importance of self, and self's place in the WWE cannon. The motivation of almost every character in the company -- first and foremost -- is to make history. Hey, we reflect on a lot of that stuff here, and if I was a wrestler, I'd probably be interested in my place in history too. But my character wouldn't obsess over it like that. No moments or careers get to speak for themselves anymore. To me, the post-match last night represented that ("We're so moved by our own artistic statement that we can't even hide tears") more than it was a defiant statement that wrestling is fake. I've come to accept it as part of WWE so much that it didn't ruin the show last night or anything like that, but it would have been better without that. We should be congratulating them on a great match instead of them congratulating themselves. And as much as I did like that match, we've all seen much better matches without the immediate and public reflection on a job well done tacked onto the end. Wrestlers used to get heat for being too openly proud of their matches in the locker room -- now they even do it on camera. Phrases like "Match of the Year" and "Wrestlemania moment" are for nerds like us -- they should never be uttered on a wrestling show. Postmodernism and wrestling are strange bedfellows. What's particularly odd is that they're hyper self-aware but seem utterly unaware of the impact of their self-awareness on viewers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 What's particularly odd is that they're hyper self-aware but seem utterly unaware of the impact of their self-awareness on viewers. Welcome to most "nerd" media post-Scream. A little self awareness is fine but going overboard with it is just an excuse for shit writing/booking/performing/etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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