GOTNW Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 Now that I've looked around it is a mistake on my part. I don't think there's much merit in me arguing with you about most of this-it is your system after all. I'm pretty sure I could name 30 memorable Akiyama opponents fwiw. I'll give it a shot: 1.MIsawa 2.Kobashi 3.Kawada 4.Taue 5.Steve Williams 6.Takayama 7.Kensuke Sasaki 8.KENTA 9.Marufuji 10.Makoto Hashi 11.Suwama 12.Kento Miyahara 13.Jake Lee 14.Yone 15.Go Shiozaki 16.Katsuhiko Nakajima 17.Takao Omori 18.Osamu Nishimura 19.Hiroyoshi Tenzan 20.Yuji Nagata 21.Tamon Honda 22.Takashi Sugiura 23.Yoshinari Ogawa 24.Masao Inoue 25.Minoru Suzuki 26.Seiya Sanada 27.KAI 28.Taiyo Kea 29.Vader 30.Keiji Mutoh This would be the least time consuming thing to bring up: Brawlers get points if they show they can work technical matches.Most technical wrestlers get points if they show they can work brawls Doesn't this penalise someone who isn't a classic brawler or tehnician but can do both? As for things that could maybe sway you: Jushin LigerBasic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for innovation) = 8Intangibles 7Great matches 9Length of Peak 1989-2010 = 21 years = 10 No way was Liger a top 30 wrestler in the world for that long. I could see extending his peak up until the New Japan vs NOAH junior feud (which would be giving him 2003/2004) but anything after that would be stretching it. Kensuke SasakiBasic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 1/3 = 5Intangibles 3Great matches 6Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0+1 ability to work heel+1 ability to work tags+1 ability to work gimmick matches+1 ability to work brawlsAbility to work different styles / roles = 4Variety = 624 I understand you've seen zero of Sasaki's 2000 stuff but he improved massively and has several years where many would argue he was at that elite level. I'd suggest check out his matches vs Kobashi from 2005 and maybe something from 2004 if you haven't just to show how he worked when he was at his best. It would be just a point or two in his favour but I don't think I care enough about Kensuke Sasaki to argue properly for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I'll have a think about these suggestions. Can answer this now: "Doesn't this penalise someone who isn't a classic brawler or tehnician but can do both?" No, in those cases I'll just go with one or the other. Funk has a point for being able to work technically, Ted gets a point for being able to work brawls. Some here will remember that I met Dibiase once at a show and asked him directly to his to face "do you consider yourself a brawler or a technician?" and his answer was "I was both". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 3, 2016 Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 I haven't really contributed or paid much attention to this thread because this formula approach isn't for me (glad it got Parv back into the project though). That said I do want to say that while I agree that Liger's peak should not be 89-10, I've watched a lot of post-NJ v. NOAH stuff Liger in the last few days and it is WAY better than what I would have guessed. Not saying it's all time great stuff or anything, but things like the match with Billy Ken Kid from 07 were very strong bouts. I'll write more about Liger in his thread when I finish watching the stuff I want to, but my point here is that the entire issue of "peak" can be a tough one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2016 The only question for my purposes is: does Liger deserve a 10 for that category or not? Cutting him in 2004 gives him a 9 and probably alters the order of my top ten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Breaks' peak on tape is from '72-84 if you consider the last year he had a classic match the final year of his peak. Physically, he started packing on the weight earlier than that. The true extent of his peak probably extends back into the 60s and his absolute prime is likely the majority of the 70s. Saint is more problematic. He jumps to All-Star in '82 and reappears on TV when Dixon starts getting a share of the time slot. He has an excellent match with Robbie Brookside in '87 and looks good in the German tournaments. I'm tempted to argue his peak was closer to '74-87 or so. I guess that doesn't really effect your rankings much. Breaks had only a handful of tags air in his long television career. The one I can remember seeing was incomplete and not that good. He likely worked tags in the halls, but I don't recall him being part of a regular tag team let alone a famous one. Saint had a regular team with Best called The Elite and possibly with others. As for the ability category, if you consider wager matches gimmick bouts then Breaks had plenty of those. 100 pounds a round, starting with a one fall advantage, that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 The only question for my purposes is: does Liger deserve a 10 for that category or not? Cutting him in 2004 gives him a 9 and probably alters the order of my top ten. As Yamada he was a pretty good worker from around '86 onwards. Certainly better than when he first adopted the costume in '89. People remember the Sano matches, but that transition period was ugly. So you might start his peak earlier and finish it in '04. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 The only question for my purposes is: does Liger deserve a 10 for that category or not? Cutting him in 2004 gives him a 9 and probably alters the order of my top ten. As Yamada he was a pretty good worker from around '86 onwards. Certainly better than when he first adopted the costume in '89. People remember the Sano matches, but that transition period was ugly. So you might start his peak earlier and finish it in '04.That was one of the revelations of the NJ set for me -- how good Liger was before he put on the costume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Agree. I could probably be convinced that Liger's peak is 86-04. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Liger -1 on peak from 10 to 9 (89-04) Breaks -1 on peak from 8 to 7 (72-84) Saint No change to peak (72-87) Lo-Ki +1 on peak from 7 to 8 (01-15) Jun Akiyama +2 on variety from 8 to 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 On Low Ki, I genuinely think he feels like he's computer generated. He actually reminds me of the the "blank face" in games where you have to make your own character. I can't take this argument seriously when he took a huge part in creating atmospheres like in his matches vs. Necro, KENTA, Joe (in both PWG and ROH). My single answer to this is Dory Funk Jr, a man part of some of the hottest and most heated feuds of all time who most people aren't even rating because he doesn't make silly faces when he wrestles. If Lo-Ki gets any more for intangibles, I'm giving Dory +5 for creating those atmospheres in 10,000+ arenas not 700+ high school gyms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Masked Superstar Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 1 Length of Peak 79-85 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a differet gimmick ("Bolo Mongol" / "Ax") +3 ability to get over in multple markets (GCW, Detroit, Florida, JCP, WWF, SMW, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 8 28 Matt Borne Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 1 Length of Peak 1983 = 1 year = 1 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a differet gimmick ("Doink") +3 ability to get over in multple markets (PNW, JCP, Mid-South, WCCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 6 23 Michael Hayes Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5 Intangibles 8 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1980-5 = years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multple markets (GCW, JCP, Mid-South, WCCW, Memphis, AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 7 33 Mick Foley Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 6 Great matches 5 Length of Peak 1992-00 = 8 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work "normal" matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Cactus Jack", "Dude Love", "Mankind") +3 ability to get over in multple markets (Memphis, WCCW, WCW, ECW, WWF, indies, TNA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 8 36 Mike Rotunda Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 2 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 1986-89 = 3 years = 2 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Irwin R. Shyster") +2 ability to get over in multple markets (Florida, JCP, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 7 24 One Man Gang Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 3 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never on of the best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Akeem") +2 ability to get over in multple markets (Florida, Mid-South, WCCW, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 4 18 Owen Hart Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 1/3 = 7 Intangibles 3 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1987-97 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Blue Blazer") +2 ability to get over in multple markets (Calgary, WWF, USWA, Japan, ) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 7 33 Pat Patterson Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for "playing to the back seats") = 8 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1969-81 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +3 ability to get over in multple markets (LA, San Francisco, PNW, Florida, AWA, Amarillo, WWF, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 5 35 Paul Orndorff Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 3 Great matches 1 Length of Peak [never on of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multple markets (GCW, Southeastern, JCP, Mid-South, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 6 21 Randy Orton Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 1/3 = 6 Intangibles 0 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 2002-15 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 Variety = 7 27 Rick Martel Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 "for giving 100% in every match and being the living embodiment of babyface effort") = 9 Intangibles 4 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 1978-92 = 14 years = 8 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to work different gimmicks ("The Model") +3 ability to get over in multple markets (Canada, PNW, AWA, WWF, WCW, Hawaii, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 9 Variety = 9 46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Robert Gibson Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 1 Great matches 6 Length of Peak [never one of the best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work singles +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multple markets (Memphis, JCP, Mid-South, AWA, ECW, SMW, Japan, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 Variety = 7 25 Roddy Piper Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 9 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 1980-6 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multple markets (LA, San Francisco, PNW, JCP, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 6 32 Roman Reigns Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5 Intangibles 1 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 2013-15 = 2 years = 2 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion [HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA] Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 Variety = 5 19 Ron Simmons Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 1/3 = 4 Intangibles 3 Great matches 2 Length of Peak 2013-15 = 2 years = 2 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("Farooq") +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, WCW, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 6 22 Sabu Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 0/3 (+1 for being such a complete nutter) = 5 Intangibles 5 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 1991-5 = 4 years = 3 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (ECW, Japan, WWE, indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 Variety = 7 27 Scott Hall Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 5 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 1992-8 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("Razor Ramon") +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 7 29 Steve Grey Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 2 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1975-85 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 1 Variety = 6 27 Steve Williams Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 1/3 (+1 for sick backdrop suplexes) = 6 Intangibles 3 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 1985-98 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to get over in mulitple markets (JCP, Mid-South, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 8 37 Steve Keirn Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 2 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 1979-85 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work a different gimmick ("Skinner") +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (Floirda, GCW, Memphis, Southwest, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 6 29 Sting Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 6 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 1991-7 = 6 years = 4 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work brawls +1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WCW, TNA, WWE) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 Variety = 8 31 Terry Gordy Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for being agile as a big man) = 8 Intangibles 4 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 1980-92 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technical matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, JCP, Mid-South, WCCW, Memphis, AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 Variety = 8 40 ------- No. rated so far: 150 Current threshhold score to finish top 100: 25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 That rating for Grey is mental. How can he have such a lower rating than Breaks or Saint when he had a greater number of good matches than them against a wider variety of opponents? Why is his intangibles rating only 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 I will consider moving the V rating up, his score did seem too low. And since he's in danger of falling off, I want to do what I can to keep him on. As a benchmark, Jack Brisco has an I rating of 3 and is probably the most natural babyface I can think of. Do you see Grey on par with him for intangibles? I wouldn't see him getting above that, too bland really. It's only just occurred to me that the I-rating has a natural tendancy to be more generous to heels, but what can ya do? Heels are cooler than babyfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 His great matches rating is too low along with his variety ranking. And his peak didn't end in '85. He had a lot of great stuff in '86 and was still good in '87 and '88. Didn't you originally add a +1 for carrying a lesser opponent? Breaks and Grey deserve a point for.that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 No, carrying lesser oppenents is in with that V rating. These are the only things you can get A points for: +1 ability to work babyface / heel +1 ability to work singles matches / tags +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work as travelling champion [basic +1 bump for the 5 NWA champs] +1 ability to brawl / work technical matches +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work [a different style] +1 ability to work a different gimmick +3 ability to get over in multiple markets So there are 11 possible points of which ... basically only Terry Funk has maxed in 150 guys. Anyway, Steve Grey re-do: Steve Grey Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8 Intangibles 2 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 1975-87 = 12 years = 7 +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles = 1 Variety = 9 34 That *does* look more right to me. Okay, that'll do. Incidentally this has put ... The Undertaker under the gun as the next bubble guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroBoy Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 This may sound strange but how does someone like Sting get a point for getting over in WWE but not Matt Borne? What exactly did Sting do IN WWE other than come in and wrestle 2 matches after his legacy was already made, whereas Doink clearly got over to a big degree and had a very very good 1993 both in ring and as a character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Just a mistake by me. Added that in, so Borne is now on 23 (still not gonna make it). On the one hand, I've been a tiny bit generous giving Sting that point, but on the other, a real Sting fan would tell you that I've completely fucked him over on the other scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Randy Orton Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 1/3 = 6 Intangibles 0 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 2002-15 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches Ability to work different styles / roles = 3 Variety = 7 27 Come on now, Orton's peak should be zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Just made me spit my tea out. Ha ha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 You can't give Orton a zero for his peak. Maybe I'm crazy, but in 2011 I think was probably the second best wrestler in the world, having the best singles matches in the careers of Christian, Kane and Mark Henry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 You can't give Orton a zero for his peak. Maybe I'm crazy, but in 2011 I think was probably the second best wrestler in the world, having the best singles matches in the careers of Christian, Kane and Mark Henry. I would definitely say you are crazy. WKO 2011 has him at 46 which seems about right for someone carriable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Be careful of going on stuff like that though cos Meltzer routinely had PWO pin-up Stan Hansen outside of the top 30 during the 80s and early 90s in those countdown lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Meltzer is just one man though. If anything if we're going by other places what you'd notice is that wrestlers who worked, I don't know, Battlarts and IWRG would simply get replaced with various guys like Kenny Omega, Ibushi, Tanahashi, Dragon Gate flip masters as well as more workrate indy guys. Orton would probably do worse on those lists if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 In other news, every single worker involved in the Ishin Gundun vs. Inoki's boys feud is getting a +1 ability to work brawls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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