JerryvonKramer Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Bobby Heenan Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 3/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 8 Great matches 0 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, AWA, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Lanza / Fabulous Ones, 2. Bigboss Man, 3. Ultimate Warrior, 4. Bruiser / Crusher, 5. Lord Alfred Hayes, 6. Pepper Gomez, 7. Greg Gagne Variety = 7 opponents = 3 20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Bobby Heenan Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 3/3 2/3 = 5 Intangibles 8 Great matches 0 Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +2 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, AWA, WWF, WCW) Ability to work different styles / roles = 4 1. Lanza / Fabulous Ones, 2. Bigboss Man, 3. Ultimate Warrior, 4. Bruiser / Crusher, 5. Lord Alfred Hayes, 6. Pepper Gomez, 7. Greg Gagne Variety = 7 opponents = 3 20 This hurts me. Not because I think you are being unfair; with the exception of intangibles, where I would give Bobby an easy 10, I actually agree with all other scores. But seeing Bobby Heenan get a score of 20 hurts my feelings. That man is perhaps the greatest performer in wrestling history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Sgt. Slaughter Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for outrageous bumps) = 8 Intangibles 6 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 80-91 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technically +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Bob Backland, 2. Pat Patterson, 3. Steamboat / Youngblood, 4. Iron Sheik, 5. Pedro Morales, 6. Hulkm Hogan, 7. Stan Hansen, 8. Wahoo McDaniel, 9. Andre, 10. Rick McGraw Variety = 10 opponents = 6 39 Mr Saito Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 = 7 Intangibles 3 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 80-90 = 10 years = 6 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, SWCW, GCW, AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Martel / Garea, 2. Strongbows, 3. Fabulous Ones, 4. Curt / Larry Hennig, 5. Hulk Hogan, 4. Lawler / Greg Gagne, 5. Steven Keirn, 6. Mr. Wrestling II, 7. Takado / Superstrong Machine, 8. Larry Zbyszko Variety = 8 opponents = 4 28 Kerry von Erich Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4 Intangibles 4 Great matches 4 Length of Peak 80-89 = 9 years = 6 +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work as ace / +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, SWCW, GCW, AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Michael Hayes, 2. Terry Gordy, 3. Buddy Roberts, 4. Harley Race, 5. Jumbo Tsuruta, 6. Ric Flair, 7. Gino Herndandez, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. One Man Gang, Variety = 9 opponents = 4 29 Reworked ratings for Misawa, Shawn, Eddie, Vader and Hansen: Mitsuharu Misawa Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 6 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (90-04) +1 ability to work as junior +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II) +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 4 1. Jumbo, 2. Kawada, 3. Kobashi, 4. Taue, 5. Hansen, 6. Gordy, 7. Akiyama, 8. Fuchi, 9. Steve Williams, 10. Johnny Ace, 11. Takayama, 12. Morishima, 13. Ohtani, 14. Hashimoto, Yone, 15. Keiji Mutoh/Taiyo , 16. Fujinami, 17. Nakamura/Goto, 18. Hase, 19. Kensuke Sasaki, 20. Vader Variety = 20 opponents = 10 48 Shawn Michaels Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6 Intangibles 5 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 86-97= 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work face +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Rose / Sumers, 2. , Orient Express, 3. Powers of Pain, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Rick Martel, 7. Bret Hart, 8. Razor Ramon, 9. Owen Hart, 10. The Undertaker, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Mankind, 13. Chris Jericho, 14. Kurt Angle, 15. Ric Flair, 16. Randy Orton, 17. John Cena, 18. Diesel, 19. Randy Savage, 20. Bob Backlund Variety = 20 opponents = 10 39 Eddie Guerrero Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 6 Length of Peak 94-05 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Black Tiger) +1 ability to work NJ Juniors style +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, Mexico, WCW, WWE, Indies) Ability to work different styles / roles = 8 1. Octagon, 2. El Hijo Del Santo, 3. Chris Benoit, 4. Rey Mysterio, 5. Dean Malenko, 6. Chavo Gueurrro Jr, 7. Chris Jericho, 8. DDP, 9. Kurt Angle, 10. John Cena, 11. Brock Lesnar, 11. JBL, 12. Edge, 13. Kidman, 14. Ultimo Dragon, 15. Ohtani Variety = 15 opponents = 7 43 Stan Hansen Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 8 Intangibles 7 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 79-93 = 13 years = 8 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability work gimmick matches +1 ability to work technically +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, WWF, WCW, AWA, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 7 1. Bruno Sammatino, 2. Bob Backlund, 3. Andre, 4. Giant Baba, 5. Terry Funk / Dory Funk Jr, 6. Carlos Colon, 7. Jumbo, 8. Tenryu, 9. Kawada, 10. Misawa, 11. Taue, 12. Kobashi, 13. Rick Martel, 14. Sgt. Slaughter, 15. Vader, 16. Jerry Blackwell, 17. Nick Bockwinkel, 18. Steve Williams, 19. Akiyama, 20. Curt Hennig Variety = 20 opponents = 10 50 Vader Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 7 Intangibles 7 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 86-97 = 11 years = 7 +1 ability to work shoot style +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WCW, Japan, Mexico, WWF, Europe) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Hansen, 2. Inoki, 3. Wanz, 4. Sting, 5. Cactus Jack, 6. Flair, 7. Hashimoto, 8. Hase / Mutoh, 9. Dustin, 10. Owen Hart, 11. Steamboat, 12. Michaels, 13. Chono, 14. Bossman, 15. Kobashi, 16. Taue, 17. Akiyama, 18. Misawa, 19. Tamura Variety = 19 opponents = 10 43 The ratings for these five guys won't change again, and it looks like Misawa will not finish top five, despite max scores in three categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Still think you are short changing Misawa a point with not including the Marifuji/KENTA match from 4/25/04. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Chad, he's maxed out, 10 for great matches, 10 for variety of opponents, 10 for base skills. He's losing his points on intangibles and ability to work different roles. It's small margins at this point. But he's effectively being hurt by the fact he didn't really travel and that he's not uber charismatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Keiji Mutoh/Taiyo I doubt anyone cares, but Parv spelling it like this reminded me of it so I will share this bit of knowledge with you anyway. As some of you may remember "Kea" was Maunakea Mossman before they changed his name so he would, uhm.....appeal to japanese fans more? I don't know. Anyway, because his name is read japanese-style by westernizing it his name would actually be Kea Taiyo, with Taiyo being his last name instead of his first as you'll usually find on most sites. Also, because the criteria for "peak" is roughly top thirty in the world I think it is worth noting Misawa finished #11 in the 2008 WKO100, which was his last "proper" year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 It's worth noting that if Misawa's peak rating was extended to 08, it would put him just ahead of Hansen (tied on 50, base breaks tie) and just behind Jumbo and Tenryu. The peak rating was originally pushed to 04 because people argued for it. Because I don't want to shortchange Misawa, I will consider any arguments for him being 08. As a basis of comparison, Flair gets to 94 even though I'm sure smart fans in 95 and 96 would have considered him top thirty in the world still in 95-6. Similarly Ted is cut at 1988, even though I'm sure in Meltzer's rankings at the time he would have still been top 30 89-91. Hansen is cut at 93. Funk in 89. Race in 84. Shawn in 97. Savage in 92. These are some benchmarks to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 I think Misawa peak at 04 is fine. He does have the year long run of GHC in 2007 but that was when the business was really starting to decline for NOAH and if you look at the opponents in those defenses, they don't inspire much consideration. Misawa was essentially on top to ride the ship until the figured out who they were going to try next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 The criteria of this that I have the biggest problem with is the +3 you give Hansen for being able to work different markets. That feels like an arbitrary bump for him that someone like Misawa wouldn't have the chance to gain. That being said, is it more impressive that Hansen had success in a multitude of eras or that Misawa was able to stay on top for a decade in a hot promotion? In addition, I don't think Misawa leading the annex of wrestlers of NOAH should be downplayed. Tenryu rocked out of AJ in 1990 to do SWS and brought talent with him. SWS never really took off. Misawa was the first since Inoki and Baba to be able to build an evergreen promotion based on an exodus. All that being said, I don't scoff at anyone that has Hansen above Misawa as they are top 10 shoe-ins for me. I just think that +3 is a big difference maker and a wild swing in the nitty gritty of the top guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Hansen was able to get over in WWF, GCW, AWA, WCW, and Puerto Rico as well as in the two biggest Japanese promotions. The +3 isn't arbitrary. This does give an advantage to guys who travelled vs. Guys who homesteaded. Generally, I haven't given guys points for working both AJPW and NOAH. Tenryu gets a bonus point because he worked NJ, AJ, SWS and FMW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El McKell Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Well Misawa did get a +1 for carrying the promotion so that is an advantage wrestlers who homesteaded can have over those who didn't. There is a certain amount of give and take there although 3 points for different markets when the maximum you can get for psychology is also 3 might be a bit much, but you can scale your ratings to whatever you think is important.Mind me asking what the justification for AJPW -> SWS counting as different markets but not counting AJPW -> NOAH and SWS -> WAR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 To be honest I don't really know what to do with WAR or NOAH. I've given Tenryu the places he worked as as part of WAR, but not for it as a promotion in its own right. Maybe SWS should be downgraded similarly. With NOAH who is really affected by it? Generally guys don't get points for working two different promotions, but will start to get points from 3-4 different ones. No one has had points for working stuff like Global or SMW or individual indies. If someone worked a lot of indies, they might get "Indies" listed. But they are not worth the same as working even the smallest of the old territories, like Portland say. You'll also notice a lot of American workers just get "Japan" listed without going into granular detail where. Not an exact science tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 I think if you are giving Tenryu SWS , you for sure should give someone like Ricky Morton SMW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Hansen was able to get over in WWF, GCW, AWA, WCW, and Puerto Rico as well as in the two biggest Japanese promotions. The +3 isn't arbitrary. This does give an advantage to guys who travelled vs. Guys who homesteaded. Generally, I haven't given guys points for working both AJPW and NOAH. Tenryu gets a bonus point because he worked NJ, AJ, SWS and FMW. Its quite the stretch, but what about for his appearances in NJPW or the Zero-1 bit with Hash? How about the fact that the All Japan crew were chosen to close out the Weekly Pro Wrestling show in '95? Nothing there amounts to a run, but they show a certain level of success or reputation outside of Baba's world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 How about the fact that the All Japan crew were chosen to close out the Weekly Pro Wrestling show in '95? Hashimoto-Chono main evented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 The fact that it's a stretch really tells the story. Misawa was over in two places: AJ and NOAH and that's not enough for a +1. Tenryu was over in AJ, NJ, and a pile of Japanese super-indies, so that's a +1. Hansen was over in at least 4 different US territories, plus PR, NJ and AJ, so that's +3. It counts because what it takes to get over at Vince Sr's MSG, on GCW's TBS show, Verne's AWA crowds, in front of the Colon's hardcore Puerto Rican crowd, Baba's crowd and Inoki's crowd are six very different things. And Hansen got over in every setting. I value that for a GWE case. Misawa might not have gotten the chance to do that, but GWE isn't the place for what ifs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 How about the fact that the All Japan crew were chosen to close out the Weekly Pro Wrestling show in '95? Hashimoto-Chono main evented. Ah right. Wasn't the reaction to that match pretty subdued following the AJ crew? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 The fact that it's a stretch really tells the story. Misawa was over in two places: AJ and NOAH and that's not enough for a +1. Tenryu was over in AJ, NJ, and a pile of Japanese super-indies, so that's a +1. Hansen was over in at least 4 different US territories, plus PR, NJ and AJ, so that's +3. It counts because what it takes to get over at Vince Sr's MSG, on GCW's TBS show, Verne's AWA crowds, in front of the Colon's hardcore Puerto Rican crowd, Baba's crowd and Inoki's crowd are six very different things. And Hansen got over in every setting. I value that for a GWE case. Misawa might not have gotten the chance to do that, but GWE isn't the place for what ifs. He should get a point for driving (drawing) an entire tape trading subculture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Why would you give Tenryu points for SWS or WAR? Both promotions were failures and the only reason Tenryu "traveled" so much is because they were losing money. You're rewarding mediocrity and punishing excellence in terms of Misawa's drawing power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 I'm perfectly happy to take the points away from Tenryu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 Doesn't Misawa hold the all-time record for Budokan Hall sellouts with most of them happening consecutively? That's something more impressive than +1 for getting over in a different place when all that may mean for these intents and purposes is that live crowds reacted a few times. Would you argue Bruno as someone who could only get over in one place? I think the two are comparable in that regard. I'm not even saying that to challenge the rating. It's just that Misawa wasn't just over with live crowds in All Japan. He was a gigantic star, the ace of the company and the most important ingredient in whatever success they had during his time on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 For the purposes of this I'm not taking drawing into account, only the ability to get over in different markets. Box office isn't really part of the metric. It's about work and getting over through that work. It does hurt guys who stayed in one or two places even if they did so and were phenomenally successful, no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 I only mentioned the Budokan sellouts because it doesn't seem right to give him a +1 for All Japan the same way we would give someone like a Brian Pillman +1 for getting over in WCW. It feels like the threshold for getting over in multiple places is low, which is fine, but getting over exceptionally isn't exceptionally rewarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 20, 2016 Report Share Posted February 20, 2016 The reason I find that interesting is that getting over means different things to different people. Dave has argued that Jerry Lawler didn't get over in the AWA, Southwest, WCCW, Florida or Georgia, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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