NXT talk

[The Thread Killer]

Apollo Crews never, ever should have been called up from NXT. He wasn't over with the "THIS IS AWESOME!" Full Sail smarks, so what on earth made them think he'd fare better on the main roster? As of now, he still has no personality, no character, nothing that defines him. He needed another year at least in NXT and I still think he should be sent back down there.

 

I could not agree with you more. I never saw the big deal with Crews when he got to NXT. His work was bland and unremarkable and he had the infuriating habit of grinning like an idiot 90% of the time. I'll never forget after he was called up, I forget who it was, but somebody attacked him backstage and beat him down, left him lying in a heap. A couple of segments later, out comes Apollo Crews who is not only NOT selling any injuries from the attack, but he's still got the big ass, shit-eating grin plastered across his face. I don't know about you, but if somebody kicked the shit out of me and left me in a heap, I'd likely still be a little put out by it 15 minutes later.

 

I assume somebody in creative on the main roster liked him because of his big muscles. There might be those who say "at least he has big muscles" but I tend to think no...at most he's got big muscles.

[The Thread Killer]

I never said I was fair.

 

I dunno. Bobby Rhode is basically himself from TNA, the gimmick he's been doing for 10 years now. With that godawful and annoying Glorious bit. Nakamura's aura was arguably reduced by working a year in NXT (although nothing compared to that awful match with Ziggler). Samoa Joe came in a star from years in TNA & ROH.

 

At this point, OVW still wins the award for turning up stars from scratch.

 

Interesting perspective.

 

Bobby Roode hails from my neck of the woods, so when NXT came to Toronto, he did a ton of local media. During one of the interviews, they asked him if was insulted that he was sent to NXT rather than straight to the main roster. Roode answered that he was glad he had gone to NXT, because even though he had tons of experience in TNA he was actually shocked at how much of the production and creative aspects of the business he was still unaware of.

 

He used his whole "Glorious" theme as an example. He talked about how the song had originally been done for Nakamura, but Nakamura rejected it. They put the song on the shelf, but when Roode came in they presented it to him. He said that he hated the song at first listen, but once he sat down and discussed how to incorporate the song into his gimmick, with the robes and the exaggerated and incredibly vainglorious ring entrance, he loved it. He talked about how when he gets to the main roster eventually, he will feel like a much more practiced and well developed all around character.

 

Not to mention, he'll probably be over already due to the percentage of crossover fans who watch NXT and the main roster - much like the anticipation for Nakamura was so amped when he finally showed up. The bottom line was that Roode said that his time in NXT so far has been invaluable and he's glad that he didn't debut on the main roster right away.

 

Now of course, he'd have been a total idiot to say otherwise. Even if he was unhappy to go to NXT, he's not going to sit there and say that to some sports talk radio jock in Toronto. But with the way he elaborated and explained how he feels being in NXT has helped him, I actually believe he meant it.

 

I personally think Samoa Joe needed his time in NXT to get back in shape. He had kinda let himself go a bit in TNA. Besides, keep in mind he was originally hired exclusively for NXT and was never intended to go to the main roster. If you believe what he said on Jericho's podcast, they originally hired him to be a cornerstone of NXT when it became it's own touring brand. I found it humorous when he talked about how some guys in NXT consider the money and accommodations to be inferior to what they anticipate they'll be getting on the main roster, when he found it all to be quite luxurious compared to what he was used to both on the indies and in TNA.

 

I really had no issue with how Nakamura was used or presented in NXT. As far as the main roster, I think it's still too soon to say. I thought the Ziggler match wasn't much of a showcase for him, and that Ziggler got way too much on him. I am holding judgement to wait and see how he does at Money in the Bank, and if he wins. If he starts stagnating in the SDL midcard, then we'll know for sure how bad the difference is between NXT and the main roster, creatively. Because say what you want about how Nakamura was used in NXT, but he was always at the top of the card, pretty much from the get go. On the main roster, the jury is still out.

[The Thread Killer]

It strikes me that I am coming across as the defender of all things NXT in this thread, or implying that I think that every new hire needs to go there for re-programming or something, and that's not the case. The most obvious example would be AJ Styles who never set foot in NXT, and his WWE career obviously hasn't suffered for it. Now of course, an argument could be made that at the time WWE signed him, AJ Styles was the best active Professional Wrestler in the world, so why the hell would they send him to developmental...but I'm not so sure WWE felt that way about Styles at first.

 

I know they're not that popular around these parts, but Gallows and Anderson would be another example of a team who really didn't need to go to NXT. They haven't set the world on fire on RAW by any stretch, but I don't think a stint in NXT would have made much difference. I was going to speculate that maybe WWE creative thinks people who have spent extended time in NJPW and have worked the big dome shows and done their TV might be better prepared to go straight to the main roster, but the argument against that would be how long they sat on Balor before calling him up.

[C.S.]

Apollo Crews never, ever should have been called up from NXT. He wasn't over with the "THIS IS AWESOME!" Full Sail smarks, so what on earth made them think he'd fare better on the main roster? As of now, he still has no personality, no character, nothing that defines him. He needed another year at least in NXT and I still think he should be sent back down there.

I could not agree with you more. I never saw the big deal with Crews when he got to NXT. His work was bland and unremarkable and he had the infuriating habit of grinning like an idiot 90% of the time. I'll never forget after he was called up, I forget who it was, but somebody attacked him backstage and beat him down, left him lying in a heap. A couple of segments later, out comes Apollo Crews who is not only NOT selling any injuries from the attack, but he's still got the big ass, shit-eating grin plastered across his face. I don't know about you, but if somebody kicked the shit out of me and left me in a heap, I'd likely still be a little put out by it 15 minutes later.

 

I assume somebody in creative on the main roster liked him because of his big muscles. There might be those who say "at least he has big muscles" but I tend to think no...at most he's got big muscles.

 

I'll be a little kinder: When Crews debuted, his ring work exceeded my expectations, as I was honestly expecting Ahmed Johnson or a WWE-era Bobby Lashley based on his look. With that said, that doesn't mean I think he's amazing in the ring or anything, and has absolutely nothing else going for him - no character, no personality, no reason to give a shit at all. Unfortunately for him, "muscle guy who smiles" isn't a character.

 

As for the Raw segment, it wouldn't surprise me if the backstage attack was filmed earlier and the smiley Crews segment was live. In that case, the blame would be on WWE's production staff, not Crews. Or did Crews actually mention the attack when he came out smiling like an idiot?

 

Apparently, Apollo Crews and Akira Tozawa are best friends in real life. WWE could do worse than put them together as an odd couple tag team. I wouldn't mind seeing that, and maybe their real-life chemistry (assuming they have any) will bleed into their characters?

 

I know they're not that popular around these parts, but Gallows and Anderson would be another example of a team who really didn't need to go to NXT. They haven't set the world on fire on RAW by any stretch, but I don't think a stint in NXT would have made much difference. I was going to speculate that maybe WWE creative thinks people who have spent extended time in NJPW and have worked the big dome shows and done their TV might be better prepared to go straight to the main roster, but the argument against that would be how long they sat on Balor before calling him up.

 

I have to disagree: I think NXT would've made a world of difference for Gallows and Anderson. Other than the early Bullet Club teaser stuff they did with AJ, they haven't been interesting as characters or in the ring. Like Crews, we still don't know who they are and have been been given zero reason to give a shit about them at all. It's a shame, because they apparently have great personalities (as seen on Ride Along and other appearances of that nature).

[El-P]

If you think Nakamura's aura was diminished by NXT I question whether you are watching the same shows. When he debited on SD people were singing every note of his song. They built a PPV around his in ring debut. Him just showing up is a special event. None of that happens without NXT and him getting over like gang busters there.

 

Nakamura was not nearly as over or special after one year in NXT. He peaked with the Sami Zayn match. He was never as over and that was his best match by far. Maybe he'll get back to that level. Probably not. Cf that Ziggler match.

 

Now of course, he'd have been a total idiot to say otherwise. Even if he was unhappy to go to NXT, he's not going to sit there and say that to some sports talk radio jock in Toronto. But with the way he elaborated and explained how he feels being in NXT has helped him, I actually believe he meant it.

 

Add to that fact, he's a main eventer in NXT. He's being featured as a star. He knows that the chances of him getting that same kind of treatment in the main roster are very slim (and honestly, I never bought Roode as a main eventer to begin with, so more power to him). The fact he learned stuff doesn't change the fact he's a 15 years veteran who showed up and was over because of his name and reputation from his TNA work (which kinda put in perspective the idea of TNA being a totally irrelevant company).

 

I never said NXT was useless or had no purpose. But guys like Joe, Nak, Roode are not produced by the WWE system at all. They are stars from different territories thrown in the mix with their name and look being the same. Better production ? You'd hope for, that has been the thing of the WWE since Vince took over. That being said, the whole WWE machinery can also be a detriment to those guys to me (like I said, I find the Glorious bit god awful, cool to know Nak refused it). Especially the way they teach all the guys they sign to move like animatronics during their intros.

[Sean Liska]

Watching NXT this week - it's such a nice little gift from WWE to old-school minded hardcore fans. It's like an apology for Raw. The Takeovers are so fun. And it leads to stuff like getting a Lesnar-Joe PPV main event. Or, even though he didn't go to NXT, I can't see the amazing 2016 of AJ Styles happening without NXT changing the thinking of who they push. Maybe it's a HHH ego trip, maybe they lose money on it - who cares, why waste energy resenting it, it's pretty much the last bastion of old school wrestling in this world of Meltzer star ratings driving how much so many guys work.

[El-P]

CM Punk & Daniel Bryan are the reasons why they opened their eyes to indy talent as main eventers and pushed AJ Styles straight on, not NXT.

 

It's actually the other way around, what NXT became in the last few years is because of that change of mentality. I know people don't seem to want to give Punk any credit at all these days, but there's clearly been a before/after that guy as a WWE main-eventer.

[sek69]

Remember when Triple H said they'll only promote guys from NXT when they have a plan for them on the main roster? It sometimes seems like Vince is fucking with him when he pulls up guys like American Alpha and then they get forgotten. Guys like Owens got lucky that between injuries and the brand split, the ranks were too thin to not push everyone, and since you have about a month from your first appearance before Vince permanently slots you in his mind he was able to stay high enough on the card to not get sent to jobberville.

[Cap]

Honestly, as much as stuff changes in the WWE, as much as their booking seems to be week to week, they may very well have "plans" for everyone they bring up and those plans may just change before they ever set foot in the ring. To me this seems more like a problem with their vision of the stories being so shortsighted than anything else.

[El-P]

Remember when American Alpha were the greatest thing on NXT PPV's and looked like can't miss success for the main roster...

[stro]

They were the greatest thing on ONE Takeover. And they weren't even the best part of their match. AA had lost almost all steam and hype before they even got called up.

[Cap]

I do think they were as much or more the product of the Revival's excess skill/heat/momentum. That doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't be bigger successes on the main roster.

[broke]

I'd venture that Alpha was brought up to be the aces of the Smackdown tag division, and after a few weeks somebody realized exactly what Truth posted above. Good tag team, remarkable athletes, but put Alpha in there against Ascension or Vaudevillains and it's just not the same as what they had with the Revival. By contrast, I'd argue you could plug in almost any other team into a program with the Revival and they would leave the program more over than when they went in.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think I already said this, but again I think what the Alphas have shown - along with Bayley, Sami Zayn, even Tye - is that they really don't know what to do with simple white meat babyfaces on the main roster.

 

They work like magic in NXT because NXT is old school wrestling and simple. There is a good guy, they have a quest to complete, they overcome obstacles along the way, they triumph. AND the crowd understands this and appreciates it and cheers them along.

 

The main roster is different. There are never beginnings, middles and ends. Just a never ending cycle of weekly TV where they try to find things for them to do. You can't get behind a hero on a mission because they have no mission. They're just doing whatever is written for them this week. The things that get babyfaces over on the main roster are catchphrases, coolness and perceived work rate. It's about personalities, not stories.

 

There's nothing really TO the Alphas' characters. They're just nice guys who wrestle good. They weren't any more complex or cool in NXT either. BUT you saw the journey, you saw Gable slowly get Jordan on board with his goofy shtick, you saw them slowly make their way up the tag ranks, and you saw Jordan burst into tears when they won the titles because it was the culmination of a lifelong quest for a championship. We all went through it with them, and it all made sense and flowed as a story, so it mattered.

 

Nothing matters on the main roster. On SD Alphas came in, did stuff, and a few months later won the tag titles off the Usos, on a random SD, with no warning, and it wasn't the culmination of anything except what they happened to have the Alphas doing that week.

 

It's easier for heels and people with catchphrases and shit to adapt to main roster life. Eventually. But for babyfaces that you're supposed to really root for, the main roster is a cold, cruel world. Because there's nothing to root for, really.

[sek69]

Getting over in WWE is all about charisma, that's why Nakamura is still popular on the main roster despite them doing their damnedest to WWE-ize him with the "Artist" nonsense.

[Ricky Jackson]

"I think I already said this, but again I think what the Alphas have shown - along with Bayley, Sami Zayn, even Tye - is that they really don't know what to do with simple white meat babyfaces on the main roster.

 

They work like magic in NXT because NXT is old school wrestling and simple. There is a good guy, they have a quest to complete, they overcome obstacles along the way, they triumph. AND the crowd understands this and appreciates it and cheers them along.

 

The main roster is different. There are never beginnings, middles and ends. Just a never ending cycle of weekly TV where they try to find things for them to do. You can't get behind a hero on a mission because they have no mission. They're just doing whatever is written for them this week. The things that get babyfaces over on the main roster are catchphrases, coolness and perceived work rate. It's about personalities, not stories.

 

There's nothing really TO the Alphas' characters. They're just nice guys who wrestle good. They weren't any more complex or cool in NXT either. BUT you saw the journey, you saw Gable slowly get Jordan on board with his goofy shtick, you saw them slowly make their way up the tag ranks, and you saw Jordan burst into tears when they won the titles because it was the culmination of a lifelong quest for a championship. We all went through it with them, and it all made sense and flowed as a story, so it mattered.

 

Nothing matters on the main roster. On SD Alphas came in, did stuff, and a few months later won the tag titles off the Usos, on a random SD, with no warning, and it wasn't the culmination of anything except what they happened to have the Alphas doing that week.

 

It's easier for heels and people with catchphrases and shit to adapt to main roster life. Eventually. But for babyfaces that you're supposed to really root for, the main roster is a cold, cruel world. Because there's nothing to root for, really."

 

Yes! Exactly. Agree a million percent. I love NXT because it feels like the wrestling I grew up with. One hour a week and five or so big shows a year. I only watch the main roster PPVs because I have the Network and it's convenient, so why not right? And it's mostly just matches, usually good ones, sometimes great, with little to no meaningless waste like Raw or Smackdown, which I'll watch a segment or two a month at most even though I have Hulu. Main roster TV is 90% junk

[Sean Liska]

CM Punk & Daniel Bryan are the reasons why they opened their eyes to indy talent as main eventers and pushed AJ Styles straight on, not NXT.

 

Those guys were flukes who overcame so much. Now, they'll actively recruit someone like Balor who isn't even that great, put him on top of NXT, and then give him the Universal title in his first PPV match. That didn't become the mindset until NXT tried to become the hip indy brand in early 2015.

[El-P]

Agreed. But I don't think NXT would have become the hip indy brand if not for CM Punk & Daniel Bryan's adventures on the main roster before. I may be wrong, but I see a link there.

[Cap]

I have always felt like Punk and Dragon where a one-two punch that forced the company to recognize the value of wrestlers who were considered "indie guys" or "internet darlings" and that gets weirdly undersold to me sometimes. That opened the door for NXT to gain the momentum it did, made Vince and company feel more comfortable loosening the reigns a bit in this other space removed from the main roster. The current wave of guys benefits in that they don't have to overcome the same institutional biases to get their foot in the door and that there is an in house way of testing and measuring popularity, but they do have to still overcome a company that I am not sure knows how to work with them in diverse ways. I think the company (at least the people still controlling the main roster) more or less just assumed all these guys should be beloved like Punk and Dragon were if they plug them into top spots on the card.

 

The point made my JR about them not knowing what to do with the white meat babies is a good one. Part of that is that NXT takes the origin story from people on the main roster. For those of us watching NXT it is great, but for everyone else it is "who gives a shit". That is a symptom of the current product though. There just isn't always the same attention put into how pieces fit into the universe they are creating. Zayn is the perfect example to me. They are only just now starting to give him a wrinkle that makes him stand out and he came out of NXT on fire. It really should not have taken this long. If they aren't careful they are going to lose all of Nak's momentum too.

[Sean Liska]

Agreed. But I don't think NXT would have become the hip indy brand if not for CM Punk & Daniel Bryan's adventures on the main roster before. I may be wrong, but I see a link there.

I wouldn't argue against that. Made them see this extra money that could be made pandering to the hardcores. I say no AJ run without NXT, you say no run without Punk/Bryan, it's all part of the same puzzle of the company's evolving thought process of the past 6 years.

[stro]

I don't give Punk nearly as much credit as Bryan because Punk wasn't hired due to his in ring work. I 100% believe Punk wouldn't have been signed at all if he wasn't basically the only guy on the indies who could cut a promo at the time, plus he was taller than the vast majority of guys as well. I wouldn't even put Punk down as the guy that blazed the trail for Bryan, as WWE has always had work rate guys to fill the undercard going back decades. Bryan would have been signed eventually no matter what, if just to be a guy to have good matches. His success is what changed the paradigm. Punk was a mostly safe bet since almost anyone who can talk can get over, which is what happened when they started letting him talk. It certainly wasn't his classic and athletic ring style that brought Punk to the dance.

[Cap]

That Black/Ohno match was quite good. It wasn't anything next level, but it was a really good version of a match you would expect from those two. It strikes me as odd to put Black's first big match on a regular episode rather than a Takeover. This was pretty clearly his most competitive match and really could have been built. If this had been in front of a hot Takeover crowd it would have felt a lot bigger and really accented what they were doing. That crowd sat on their hands and felt more like they were going through the motions of responding how they "should" respond. I am not a huge fan of the Full Sail crowd on the whole anymore (another story), but they seemed particularly dead on this episode. Regardless, I thought the match was quite good.

 

This does raise questions about Ohno. My fears about him becoming a short term gatekeeper and then a trainer and signed, at least in part, to keep him away from other companies. Not saying he should have won, but they don't seem to have much interest in building him. Maybe they are doing something similar to what they are doing with Almas, but I am not seeing that yet. He also loses a lot of his teeth in NXT to me. First they got him walking around like an insecure husky kid in a pool. His trash talk is cheesy in nxt too. I still like Kassius Ohno, I just love Chris Hero.

[Ricky Jackson]

I think it's pretty clear Ohno is going to feud with Itami and be away from the title picture for a while, so it makes sense that he puts over Black, someone who is likely going to be in the title picture going forward.

 

The next Takeover isn't until Brooklyn in two months, so I think you have to do something more with Black than have him win squashes until then. And I'm sure he'll be featured prominently at that show based on how he's been booked so far. Maybe even a title match with Roode

[Cap]

Oh I have no issue with him putting over Black and of course it is clear Itami will be Ohno's next proper feud, but this felt like a match that could have and should have gotten a bigger stage to me. He just feels lost and directionless, and as a result it feels like he has lost a lot of stature within that NXT universe. A win over Ohno doesn't feel - at least to me - like it means that much.

 

I love the direction Black is going and what they are doing with him. I won't even be surprised if they slow build to him being the one to take the belt off Roode.

[Infinit]

Mauro Ranallo just announced that he has join the NXT announce team. Maybe as soon as tomorrow's taping.