BigBadMick Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Spurned partly by the possibly v Undertaker at WM talk. The general feeling on Angle (and Michaels) here was the biggest 'holy shit!' moment when I first came to this site. I'm curious how folks feel about him now. His TNA run gets very little attention, and I'm wondering if his WWE stuff is still as polarising as ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 He wouldn't make my 300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 He wouldn't make my 300. or 500. He was great in 2000-01, but once mid 2002 came around he was not so good. A few years later he was/is actively horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Different strokes for different folks, but he absolutely makes my top 10. He'd not only make my top 10 based on what I consider to be good wrestling, he's possible crack my top 10 wrestling personalities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Is it possible there's a happy medium between "He was horrible" and "He was one of the greatest ever"? I'm not sure I've ever seen an opinion that wasn't one extreme or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 I might put him in the 90's. I think it comes down to style, some people absolutely hate his style of wrestling and wouldn't put him in their top 500, others grew up with it and/or considered it an exciting alternative to what they considered a more "boring" style before him. It also comes down to how much you like big moves vs. how much you like psychology. I see the value in him and what he tries to do even if I don't particularly like him bell to bell in an average match. I think you do have to admit his Austin feud in 2001 produced really good work, and I think he brought as much if not more to the table for it than Sting did against Vader to give one comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 I think he is an effective tool for a smart wrestler to try to use, athletic, willing to work hard, good physical charisma, able to hit moves. He is very willful though and you aren't going to constrain his habits or terrible ideas about pro wrestling. So if you are masterful, he's a great tool, one of the greatest tools in decades. Good luck utilizing him well though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Is it possible there's a happy medium between "He was horrible" and "He was one of the greatest ever"? I'm not sure I've ever seen an opinion that wasn't one extreme or the other. He was fine had good matches very few really great matches and none that were with guys that weren't better than himself but, one of his biggest flaws as GWE that I feel is rarely brought up is his impact. Impact is very important but people seldom talk about the effects of negative impact on a candidates standing. Angle can be seen as if not the father of the guy you popularized on a mainstream stage the "Epic Match" style by which I mean long matches with lots of moves, kick outs, finishers, no-selling, and lack of real substance. That style had at a time and may still be the main event style for most major companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Is it possible there's a happy medium between "He was horrible" and "He was one of the greatest ever"? I'm not sure I've ever seen an opinion that wasn't one extreme or the other.He was fine had good matches very few really great matches and none that were with guys that weren't better than himself but, one of his biggest flaws as GWE that I feel is rarely brought up is his impact. Impact is very important but people seldom talk about the effects of negative impact on a candidates standing. Angle can be seen as if not the father of the guy you popularized on a mainstream stage the "Epic Match" style by which I mean long matches with lots of moves, kick outs, finishers, no-selling, and lack of real substance. That style had at a time and may still be the main event style for most major companies.I'm no Angle fan but that seems like a lot of baggage to hang on him. If what you're describing even is a "style," there are many to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 You're definitely right but, there is a generation of fans and wrestlers that were raised on the idea that Angle is one of if not the greatest all time in-ring wrestler so his negative tropes have more legacy than others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted January 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Is it possible there's a happy medium between "He was horrible" and "He was one of the greatest ever"? I'm not sure I've ever seen an opinion that wasn't one extreme or the other. That's what has me intrigued too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InYourCase Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 In my Top 25. Arguably the best opponent for Edge, Mysterio Jr, Michaels, and Jeff Jarrett. Amazing stuff with Joe, AJ, Daniels, and Nigel in TNA. His No Way Out 2006 match with The Undertaker is actually one of my personal favorite WWE matches. Something very different from the normal WWE main event. I don't understand how people aren't in love with this guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmmnx Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 He had the tools to be one of the best ever, and when he was in there with a vet he would listen to you could see the unlimited potential. Left on his own he was like a really skilled guitar player that would just wank all over the song instead of playing things that made sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Haven't thought much about my list past the top 10-20, but can't imagine how Angle wouldn't make the bottom quarter. Way too many terrific matches with a variety of opponents as touched on in the post above. I see the points many make in their criticism as at times he could become very robotic, but absolutely cannot see how some people seem to paint him as everything wrong with wrestling. There were just too many great and varied matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parties Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 He's not horrible at all, but doesn't come close to making my list. It's hard to say why exactly he got worse as he got older. Some of it is likely injuries and pills, some of it is that he tried to be "epic" when he should have just been good. Often he seems as capable as his opponent. Put him in there with someone as selfish and melodramatic as 2005 Michaels or reckless as 2004 Brock and it's just brutal. My favorite Angle is the 2002 Smackdown Six foil for Mysterio who tagged with Benoit and later feuded against him. That was the point at which he was athletically great, worked a breakneck pace that remained entertaining, had guys around him who could structure spots/matches/drama, and used his crazy genetic gifts in ways that allowed for comedy and fun. He was an ideal base for Mysterio's offense and as a character he played well against Edge. It felt like good lucha. All three teams were used very well and Heyman or whoever it was understood how to book Angle (equal parts credibility and comedy) better than anyone before or after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 I don't understand how people aren't in love with this guy. Considering how much has been written on why some don't think he's that good that one's on you. Angle is a guy that has suffered due to how much of his work I've seen, don't think he has a lot of great matches and I have no problem thinking of hundreds of others wrestlers whose work and presence I enjoy that have also had a lot of good matches and don't have nearly as many flaws as Angle does. I also think he's pretty terrible at his worst (think 40 minute TNA 2010-11 main event with a 20 minute finishing stretch.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 I don't understand how people aren't in love with this guy. Considering how much has been written on why some don't think he's that good that one's on you. Angle is a guy that has suffered due to how much of his work I've seen, don't think he has a lot of great matches and I have no problem thinking of hundreds of others wrestlers whose work and presence I enjoy that have also had a lot of good matches and don't have nearly as many flaws as Angle does. I also think he's pretty terrible at his worst (think 40 minute TNA 2010-11 main event with a 20 minute finishing stretch.) Which TNA matches have gone 40 minutes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 The one I was specifically referring to was vs. Jeff Hardy. I think it went to a 30 minute time limit draw and was then re-started twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 In that Jeff Hardy match they hit like 16 different finishers - which is not an exaggeration. Truly one of the worst things I've ever seen. Despite opening with that, Angle will get on my list through the strength of his best performances. He has, as has been said, all the tools, just terrible ideas and instincts. So when the latter don't get in the way too much he can do good stuff, and he has an awful lot of good stuff for someone who can be so awful. There's the Austin matches. I am in love with the Smackdown Six period and his team/angle with Benoit. He was also good in that period working with newcomers like Cena or Rey and giving them the right amount. When he would goof off and show ass he was brilliant, he had the credibility to let babyfaces run rings around him because you knew he could turn it around in an instant. He was one of the best "lucha base" type of guys in WWE for that reason, and also because he could take offense like a champ. There are other examples of that kind of Angle too - the Jannetty SD match, the Lethal match in TNA...when he's in there with a "lesser" opponent (not in terms of talent but in terms of card placement) he tends to let things breathe more - he acts like a bully, gives the faces plenty of shine, bumps around, kills them when the time comes, and makes them look like a million bucks and like they could pull it off (whether they do or not), usually without resorting to a million finisher kickouts (but not always). Angle vs midcarder is one of my favourite match ups. Angle and Rey had over half a dozen matches in WWE and I loved ALL OF THEM. Rey is Angle's best opponent and it's not even remotely close. I think in another life Angle had a great career as a rudo because he just seemed like the perfect base for Rey in WWE. Solid enough for Rey to fly around, goofy enough to get his pants pulled down during Rey's shine, and then vicious enough to catch him and beat the crap out of him. At the moment their January 2003 match is my fave because at every turn I think "here's where Angle finally catches him and splats him" and then they pull another one out of the hat, again and again. Most of their matches missed the mark but I love the Eddie match at WMXX. Just ridiculously love it. In fact their whole feud was an incredible performance by Angle out of the ring, I still vividly remember the angle on SD where Eddie was handcuffed and Angle walked calmly down the ramp taping his fists with a completely blank expression on his face. He looked like he could have killed someone that night. I shit on Angle a lot but he has a ridiculous amount of charisma and presence, across the entire spectrum from comedy to serious, face to heel. Angle is a guy whom when he actually nails it, just really nails being a pro wrestler, I despair and think "Why can't you be like this all the time?!?!" If Angle worked to that level with any consistency, if he had even half as much masturbatory, finisher kicking bullshit on his resume than he does, he'd be one of my all time favourite guys. But he only hits that mark every blue moon, and frustrates the shit out of me the rest of the time. So he's on my list, but there's a ceiling for someone who causes me that much mental anguish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 I'm not saying my list is 100% about instincts and ideas, but it's probably about 85% about that (so long as, you know, I see proof in matches, which involves a wrestler executing them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 In terms of Angle though, for argument's sake, if we can point to his bad ideas and instincts, what do you make of his good ideas and instincts? Even though he bothers me so I find it overly simplistic to attribute all of his negatives to his instincts, and all of his positives to either his opponents or physical talent. For me like, sometimes he has good ideas. He's masterful at playing the bully ace to a midcarder or a rookie. He knows exactly how to stooge and bump and look foolish like a comedic rudo. He has a great sense of timing most of the time. And so on. Or is it just that the bad overwhelms the good? (It does for me with Angle, certainly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 They'd situate him well at 255 under a Mulkey or Barry O or someone who can fulfill their role well much closer to most of the time without actively harming matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Two interesting questions to consider with Angle - does it matter that his gimmick during arguably his strongest period as a worker was kinda ass backwards, and does the fact that he didn't live up to the expectations of many/or fell short of what was hoped for him hurt him? Another way of asking these questions - Mikey Whipwreck is a guy who had a gimmick that fit him (reluctant backyarder, who had a sloppy sort of athleticism and disregard for his body that helped him overcome his overwhelmingly obvious weaknesses) and also drastically exceeded expectations of pretty much anyone who saw him during his early days. I'm not saying Whipwreck will make my list, but I'm much more inclined to rate him than Angle, and I think part of it is that he totally embodied that logical character, and he absolutely was better than he had any right to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 He's currently my #99 but he might fall off in the next couple of months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Two interesting questions to consider with Angle - does it matter that his gimmick during arguably his strongest period as a worker was kinda ass backwards, and does the fact that he didn't live up to the expectations of many/or fell short of what was hoped for him hurt him?The example that comes to mind for me is how Kurt is typically pushed as a technical wrestler, when he rarely even tries to be that. Today I rewatched him vs Austin at Unforgiven 2001, and that was a total brawl with simple strikes making up the vast majority of Angle's offense. But I fault that more on WWE and TNA trying to push Kurt as something he isn't; when he wants to take it to the mat, of course the gold medalist is more than capable of doing that. But they always try to portray his character as a mat wizard when he rarely does much real matwork, and I lay that blame on the office. Push the guy as he is, not as how you'd like him to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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