Is Kurt Angle's in your top 100?

[JerryvonKramer]

Kurt Angle
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 0/3 = 5
Intangibles 4
Great matches 3
Length of Peak 00-05= 5 years = 3

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work gimmick matches
+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, TNA, Japan)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 3

1. Shane McMahon, 2. Steven Austin, 3. Chis Jericho, 4. Chris Benoit, 5. Brock Lesnar, 6. Eddie Guerrero, 7. Rey Mysterio, 8. Undertaker, 9. AJ Styles

Variety = 9 opponents = 4

 

22

[GOTNW]

Was Angle even wrestling in 1998. He didn't do anything of note in 1999 and was a super rookie in 2000.

[JerryvonKramer]

My mistake. That lowers his score further. Angle is probably not making the 100.

 

For some reason I thought the IC / Euro champion runs were 98-99. Faulty memory.

[Benbeeach]

I like him as a tools guy. Just in terms of sheer number of things he could do well was astounding to me. He wasn't a wizard on the mat but looked like he could at least take it there to some reasonable level of credibility if ever booked to do so. Just didn't. Was an amazing base. Had almost unparalleled cardio (kind of a given but still) Amazing character actor. Could fly. Could brawl. Threw the best punches on television for like 6 years. (Honestly why doesn't anyone ever bring up angles punches? They were masterful)

As a whole I was never invested in him enough to make an argument one way or the other. But I think he sits firmly between "Greatest" and "Worst" ever. He more than Michaels (Who I think at worst should find his way onto at least the bottom of most lists) is a guy who I can totally see arguments for on plenty of and absolutely no lists.

Again as a raw, moldable, create a wrestler, Angle ranks very high. Devils in the details

[JerryvonKramer]

Angle is probably the best test case for:

 

1. Raw talent vs. output

2. Mechanics vs. psychology

[fakeplastictrees]

I am not sure where Angle would land on my list (definitely not in the top 20) and that mainly due to his later work which I find too self-indulgent. Kurt Angle was the Davey Richards of the wrestling world before Davey Richards came about. People shit on finishers being killed dead in big WWE matches of the last 5 years or so, but Angle was doing it before it became chic. How many LOW-MID CARDERS kicked out of the Angle Slam and/or reversed the ankle lock? Angle got into an 'epic' formula match mode and wanted to have that type of match with everyone.

 

As far as his TNA stuff, I would venture to say that it has held up better than his WWE stuff in some respects.

[Goodear]

Angle has a chance of squeeking into the bottom five of my list. I just don't find him interesting the majority of the time and find his style doesn't emphasis the things that I feel makes wrestling work as a performance art. He strikes me as a trumped up indy wrestler who does moonsaults and 450 splashes because they are 'cool' and not because they fit his matches or character.

[Phil Schneider]

Why would he end up on your list at all then? I also think he kind of sucks, but he isn't sniffing my list

[Microstatistics]

He has a chance of making my 85-100 based on his 2001-2004 stuff which I liked quite a lot. But I do agree with some of the criticisms, especially post 2004 where his over reliance on finishers and suplexes rendered a lot of his matches kind of boring because of the lack of psychology. I actually think his selling is pretty good even in the finisher fest matches but the most frustrating thing (something many people have observed) is that he rarely wrestles on the mat or does any amateur stuff and his style eventually became mostly about non stop action with little flow or story.

[Microstatistics]

Also his character work went downhill where he drifted away from the dorky but tough babyface or the jock bully heel who could be vicious to that super intense machine persona which I thought was pretty uninteresting.

[JerryvonKramer]

He has a chance of making my 85-100 based on his 2001-2004 stuff which I liked quite a lot. But I do agree with some of the criticisms, especially post 2004 where his over reliance on finishers and suplexes rendered a lot of his matches kind of boring because of the lack of psychology. I actually think his selling is pretty good even in the finisher fest matches but the most frustrating thing (something many people have observed) is that he rarely wrestles on the mat or does any amateur stuff and his style eventually became mostly about non stop action with little flow or story.

The reason he has 2/3 rather than 3/3 for selling for me is because of how he sells pain when he's in holds, and his apparent inability to do long-term selling. You can be the best bumper in the world, but still not max out in selling because of that. It's ironic that Angle was frequently compared to Jack Brisco, because he might just be the top trump for selling pain in a hold.

[NotJayTabb]

When I think of Kurt selling, I think back to the Turning Point 2009 match with Desmond Wolfe where Desmond works over Angle's arm for the opening portion of the match. Angle's responds by hitting 6 consecutive German suplexes as his first offensive rally. Wolfe then goes back to the arm and I'm thinking "Man, you worked over his arm and he was still able to hurl you over his head without breaking the hold 6 times in a row - I don't buy that this arm work is going to hinder Angle in the slightest".

 

Angle isn't going to make my list. My favourite match of his is the Jeff Jarrett match that was on that 4-disk Jarrett TNA release, and I see that as more of a feather in JJ's cap than Kurt's, as Jarrett forced him to slow down and wrestle a better match.

[Cap]

I have a feeling he would probably make the very back end of my list if I wasn't sort of binge watching a bunch of wrestling I had never seen. He will most likely get bumped for me. I do however enjoy some of his higher end stuff, especially the Benoit, Joe, and Eddie Guerrero. Honestly, probably had more to do with those guys than ol kurt though.

[Microstatistics]

 

He has a chance of making my 85-100 based on his 2001-2004 stuff which I liked quite a lot. But I do agree with some of the criticisms, especially post 2004 where his over reliance on finishers and suplexes rendered a lot of his matches kind of boring because of the lack of psychology. I actually think his selling is pretty good even in the finisher fest matches but the most frustrating thing (something many people have observed) is that he rarely wrestles on the mat or does any amateur stuff and his style eventually became mostly about non stop action with little flow or story.

The reason he has 2/3 rather than 3/3 for selling for me is because of how he sells pain when he's in holds, and his apparent inability to do long-term selling. You can be the best bumper in the world, but still not max out in selling because of that. It's ironic that Angle was frequently compared to Jack Brisco, because he might just be the top trump for selling pain in a hold.

 

I agree with this and would give him 2/3 for selling as well.