Which women are you ranking?

[Loss]

I have no idea yet how but all of these at a minimum with possibly more:

 

Aja Kong

Akira Hokuto

Bull Nakano

Chigusa Nagayo

Devil Masami

Dump Matsumoto

Dynamite Kansai

Manami Toyota

Mariko Yoshida

Mayumi Ozaki

Meiko Satomura

Megumi Kudo

Shinobu Kandori

 

I need to think more about:

 

Cutie Suzuki

Kyoko Inoue

Lioness Asuka

Plum Mariko

Sakie Hasegawa

Takako Inoue

Toshiyo Yamada

[andrew79]

Pretty much the same as yours, except no Dump, no Kudo, and Kyoko's a definite.

[Loss]

I wish I had time to watch a few highlights of 2000-present Joshi. I'd like to at least see wrestlers like Azumi Hyuga, Arisa Nakajima and Kana and make some determinations from there.

 

Also, is anyone ranking Sara Del Ray? I've never actually seen one of her matches.

[Childs]

I have Kansai, Kong, Nakano, Masami and Hokuto. No Jaguar Yokota for you, Loss?

[Loss]

I don't think I've seen enough Jaguar Yokota to properly judge her.

[elliott]

Same as Loss's list only without Satomura or Yoshida. Which is more my footage gaps than them not being terrific in the things I've seen.

[Dylan Waco]

I need to go back and watch some 80s Joshi. Maybe I'll prioritize that more than anything else in the next six weeks as I'm close to feeling comfortable with most everyone else.

 

I can't in good conscience leave Hokuto or Kong off my list. After that it gets really tough for me because when I have tried to go back and Joshi in recent years it has fallen flat. I do love Satomura though, and feel compelled to include here because she has kept the flame alive for a dying scene. Kansai, Nakano, and Kudo were all people I continued to think highly of even after my interest in Joshi had collapsed so I may include them as well. Feels wrong to leave Chigusa off but it's been forever since I watched her

[donsem43]

If the YT/DM accounts that were full of late '00 joshi stuff were still around I would make a big push for Azumi Hyuga, plus take a better look at Yoshiko Tamura, Kayoko Haruyama, and Kaori Yoneyama. Hyuga will make my top 50 when I actually get around to nominating her.

 

Chigusa is most likely in my top 10, with Jaguar also being a possibility. Devil will be in my top 25, Aja and Bull might make it in there too. Kansai and Kyoko will make my list but in the back half. Hokuto is a definite but I don't have any idea as to where. Toyota, Yoshida, Ozaki, Kandori, and Kana are all on the bubble.

[Timbo Slice]

Hokuto will probably stand above the rest for me, but Kong and Jaguar will be right there with her. I don't think Toyota will make my Top 100 list, but she'll definitely be there with Yamada on the tag list. Same with Kansai and Ozaki. I think I might find room for Chigusa, too. Kandori is interesting because her high-end stuff is REALLY good, but there's not a lot of it. I really want to put Meiko on the list, too, but I have a feeling when I make the list she'll be in the 125 range or so. Kudo might be in the most emotional joshi match of all time with the Toyoda Retirement match, and her deathmatches were quite compelling along with her tag work, but I don't think she'll have enough.

 

Bull Nakano, though...I struggle with what to do with her. It's easy to see she's a dynamic worker, she's been in some top flight matches with Aja, had the really fun Kyoko stuff and can be considered good basically since she started working full-time with Dump's army, but I don't think she hits the highs that some of the others do. There's not a lot of Bull matches that make me think I have to see them. She seems like a candidate with a lot of great stuff, but nothing that I would consider as good as say, Kong/Toyota from Big Egg. Or even some of the best Kong/Meiko stuff. She's got perhaps the largest range out of any of these where she could fall, and part of that list might be at the end of my Top 100.

[El McKell]

Akira Hokuto

Bull Nakano

Aja Kong

Dynamite Kansai

Manami Toyota

Chigusa Nagayo

Devil Masami

Mayumi Ozaki

Jaguar Yokota

Shinobu Kandori

Lioness Asuka

 

With possible room for Kyoko, Yumiko Hotta and Toshiyo Yamada

[Jimmy Redman]

I'll get to my list of women presently, since I'm in the middle of a big joshi binge.

 

As a sidebar, this seems as good a place as any to ask about women in lucha. What is there? WHO is there? It's not something you ever hear about, even in a hardcore place like this. I think my awareness only extends to Fabi Apache and Sexy Star. So what's the deal? Is it not very good? Is it that there's nobody following it or pimping it? Is it an afterthought in Mexico? Is there any luchadora who could have been considered for something like GWE?

 

Just curious.

[ohtani's jacket]

Women's wrestling was banned for a long time in Mexico City. When the ban was finally overturned in the mid-80s, women were used sparingly much like the minis. The most well-known female wrestlers from the 80s are the ones that toured Japan in the 70s and 80s with La Galatica (better known in Mexico as Pantera Surena) being the most prominent due to her feud with Jaguar Yokota. Other stars from that era were Lola González, Irma Aguilar, the Moreno sisters and Martha Villalobos, who was pretty much the Mexican Dump Matsumoto. The Moreno sisters were popular in Japan in the early 90s and Esther in particular was well liked in Joshi circles when I first got into Japanese wrestling. I don't know about the modern scene. My impression is that the luchadoras have been featured more promptly in the 2010s than in any other era, though I do believe there was an initial surge in their popularity when the ban was overturned.

[Loss]

Esther Moreno has looked tremendous at times in Japan, but I've been told we never really see that from her in Mexico for whatever reason.

[Jimmy Redman]

Women I'm considering at this point:

 

Trish, Kong, Toyota, Yamada, Kansai, Ozaki, Hokuto, Kandori, Satomura, Kudo, Chiggy.

 

Still haven't finished, and I haven't seen much FMW/deathmatch type stuff yet.

[funkdoc]

surprised at all the kandori love, she seemed to take a back seat to a lot of those other names during the 90s

[pantherwagner]

Esther Moreno has looked tremendous at times in Japan, but I've been told we never really see that from her in Mexico for whatever reason.

 

Esther had a really bad knee injury and she was never the same after that. Crazy as it sounds, before the injury she had Toyota/Kyoko level potential. Her peak was too short to be considered even as a top 50 woman of all time.

[pantherwagner]

Women's wrestling was banned for a long time in Mexico City. When the ban was finally overturned in the mid-80s, women were used sparingly much like the minis. The most well-known female wrestlers from the 80s are the ones that toured Japan in the 70s and 80s with La Galatica (better known in Mexico as Pantera Surena) being the most prominent due to her feud with Jaguar Yokota. Other stars from that era were Lola González, Irma Aguilar, the Moreno sisters and Martha Villalobos, who was pretty much the Mexican Dump Matsumoto. The Moreno sisters were popular in Japan in the early 90s and Esther in particular was well liked in Joshi circles when I first got into Japanese wrestling. I don't know about the modern scene. My impression is that the luchadoras have been featured more promptly in the 2010s than in any other era, though I do believe there was an initial surge in their popularity when the ban was overturned.

 

The best Mexican I have ever seen from that era is Galactica/Pantera Surena. According to Box y Lucha mythology the best worker of the 70s was Chabela Romero. There are only a few clips of her here and there as well as at least one match against Jackie Sato.

 

Martha was fat, wore facepaint and had punk rock style clothes. That's where the Dump Matsumoto comparisons should end.

 

I never thought much of Irma Aguilar and Irma Gonzalez. Lola Gonzalez was alright but I also was never impressed.

 

Not a single Jackie Sato mention. People need to watch more Jackie Sato. It's amazing to see her and Yokota (when she still was Rimi Yokota) being several levels above everybody else in All Japan Women. Her matches with Yokota would be the best place to start.

[Loss]

Kandori did not get proper credit at the time. She was someone considered along for the ride, but that's clearly not true if you watch the matches. I don't even know that there's a hugely significant volume gap between her and Hokuto.

[pantherwagner]

I like Kandori but a lot of the LLPW was hard to get through back in the day, partly because the roster wasn't very good. She'd also no sold a lot when she was in with lesser ranked opponents. I understand that was part of her gimmick/aura but it didn't make for entertaining matches.

 

Kandori vs Nakano chain match is a great match that never gets a lot of praise.

[Edwin]

Also, is anyone ranking Sara Del Ray? I've never actually seen one of her matches.

Yeah, I don't think she'd make my list or anyone else's honestly.

 

In her defense, she came up the ranks when Joshi had really lost a ton of quality. Had she been around as much as she was in the 00's in the 90's, she would've been better off. I think she would've benefited and fit in well somewhere like GAEA against and with Mayumi Ozaki, KAORU, Satomura, Aja and co.

 

For some odd reason I don't think she would've fit in that well with the early 90's AJW crew though.

 

I'm also surprised to see Loss and elliot are the only one who've replied to this topic and are voting in for Dump. Watching her beat up the Crush Gals while making everyone cry at ringside in Korakuen Hall was one of the most epic things in the history of pro-wrestling. Kudos to the Crush Gals for that, but that role was simply just something Dump fit in perfectly too. She was the perfect big, brutal and nasty heel the Crush Gals needed to play to.

 

She also had some quality matches with the Jumping Bomb Angels too.

 

Toshiyo was great too. I would vote for her just based on her hair match with Toyota alone and for that one punt fest she was involved in with Yumiko Hotta which may I'm sure happened more than once, but I recall have only seen occur once.

 

Glad to see Kudo making a lot of people's lists too. Her death matches in FMW with Shark Tsuchiya were epic. Had these death matches taken place with a prime Dump, they would've been a lot better. Sadly Shark wasn't as great as Dump was.

 

Her feud with Ozaki which featured a crazy street fight on a JWP card in Korakuen Hall from 97 with her teaming with RIE and Ozaki teaming with Amano I believe it was was great too. They had a no rope barb wire death match in a show on an FMW card in Korakuen Hall too from around that time period, but it wasn't as great as the JWP street fight.

 

If the YT/DM accounts that were full of late '00 joshi stuff were still around I would make a big push for Azumi Hyuga, plus take a better look at Yoshiko Tamura, Kayoko Haruyama, and Kaori Yoneyama. Hyuga will make my top 50 when I actually get around to nominating her.

 

Chigusa is most likely in my top 10, with Jaguar also being a possibility. Devil will be in my top 25, Aja and Bull might make it in there too. Kansai and Kyoko will make my list but in the back half. Hokuto is a definite but I don't have any idea as to where. Toyota, Yoshida, Ozaki, Kandori, and Kana are all on the bubble.

I know this is all subjective and comes down to personal preference, but how good are Azumi Hyuga, Yoshiko Tamura, Kayoko Haruyama and Kaori Yoneyama compared to the likes of the great Japanese female wrestlers from the 80's and 90's?

 

I've seen some of their matches and I think they're good (namely Hyuga and Tamura), but I just can't see how they're careers where much better than the likes of the great Japanese female wrestlers from the 80's and 90's.

 

Women I'm considering at this point:

 

Trish, Kong, Toyota, Yamada, Kansai, Ozaki, Hokuto, Kandori, Satomura, Kudo, Chiggy.

 

Still haven't finished, and I haven't seen much FMW/deathmatch type stuff yet.

Trish I'm curious about. I'm not trying to be this arguing, signaling out douche or anything, but I'm just curious as to what captures your attention to vote in Trish over say someone like Mariko Yoshida just to name someone.

 

I know Trish was the best women wrestler in WWF for some years, but she really didn't ever catch on to me as this great wrestler or anything.

 

Just going by US wise alone, I would say Sara del Ray, Sasha Banks, Bayley or Cheerleader Melissa are above her even though they haven't been in the big spotlight she was and even though she didn't get the chance to work matches as extensive as them.

[Jimmy Redman]

 

Women I'm considering at this point:

 

Trish, Kong, Toyota, Yamada, Kansai, Ozaki, Hokuto, Kandori, Satomura, Kudo, Chiggy.

 

Still haven't finished, and I haven't seen much FMW/deathmatch type stuff yet.

Trish I'm curious about. I'm not trying to be this arguing, signaling out douche or anything, but I'm just curious as to what captures your attention to vote in Trish over say someone like Mariko Yoshida just to name someone.

 

I know Trish was the best women wrestler in WWF for some years, but she really didn't ever catch on to me as this great wrestler or anything.

 

Just going by US wise alone, I would say Sara del Ray, Sasha Banks, Bayley or Cheerleader Melissa are above her even though they haven't been in the big spotlight she was and even though she didn't get the chance to work matches as extensive as them.

 

 

There's been a lot said about Trish in her thread, and I'm not saying "read her thread" to be a douche either, but if you read mine and brainfollower's posts in that thread that should give you a picture of what her strengths are, although I don't place as much importance in the "achievement/making chicken salad out of" aspect that brain does, I think.

 

I think Trish is great mainly because I think greatness is way more than the physical moves you make in the ring. Especially in WWE. Sara Del Rey or Mariko Yoshida can wrestle, physically, better than Trish, but for me that basically has nothing to do with it and kind of misses the whole point of wrestling.

 

Trish was an incredible heel in 2004. I start with that because it's her best work and what I think of first. She was genuinely the best heel on Raw, if not the company, in that period. She had awesome comedic timing, physical timing, awesome expressions. She was great at projecting her character in the ring. She was great at knowing just how much to give other girls depending on their situation, especially girls who weren't much good, where she was trying to tell the right story and lead them by the hand through a match at the same time. She had the versatility to work heel or face, serious or comedic, legit wrestler or lighthearted T&A, all the gimmick matches she had, and all levels of opponent from good workers to the downright incompetent. She had great matches with a bunch of people (relative to how many girls are ever on the roster) like Lita, Mickie, Melina, Victoria, Jazz, Molly, Stephanie, etc. People don't immediately think of the matches, instead thinking of her dragging passable stuff out of bad workers, but she does have that list of great matches when I stop and list them all, which I will do (unless brain has already done it in the Trish thread, I can't remember).

 

Above all else she was my favourite wrestler for a long time. I mean if it was a list of my favourite wrestlers I'd put her #2. Obviously I'm not going to do that, but there's a reason why she was my favourite, and I can watch her back and still see that talent shine through, and still believe her body of work holds up, so I am absolutely ranking her. No idea where, but somewhere.

 

In terms of a specific "why X and not Y", I guess I can say that from what I've seen of SDR, she's very good mechanically but has never really grabbed me as anything more, even relative to her peers like a Cheerleader Melissa. And like I've said, mechanics are one of the least important things to me. Melissa I like a little more, I remember enjoying her in TNA back in the day, and I've liked what I've seen of her indy work, but again I don't like her enough to compel me to seek out more of her stuff in time to rank her. She's just there, like a lot of other girls are just there, whether they're from joshi, indies or WWE.

 

Sasha and Bayley are guys I would kind of love to rank, even just on principle, but even I can't find it in me to justify it. It's too soon. They've been on the radar for a year, maybe a year and a half. I've seen a lot of women (and men) have really strong year-long runs in my time without feeling like I can put them on a list like this. Sky's the limit for the next ballot though.

 

I think I've seen maybe one Mariko Yoshida match so far, so I really don't have any value judgment on her. I'm still watching a lot of joshi at the moment, so more joshi girls could come into the picture if I see more of them and like them. She's just not someone who's been on my radar, as yet.

[donsem43]

On Hyuga, I personally think she's debatably a top 5 woman of all time. Had a great run as the ace of JWP in the late 2000's. Her title matches with Yoneyama and the title loss to Haruyama are a couple of matches that are comparable to some of the best stuff that happened during the 80's and 90's. Tamura was inconsistent but when she was on she was one of my favourites to watch. Haruyama and Yoneyama have had some impressive performances, there just isn't enough readily available footage of them to make a firm decision of whether either one of them should be considered for the list.