Bret Hart vs Steve Austin

[Grimmas]

To me the greatest feud of all-time. Of course I was 16-17 at the time and Bret was my favourite wrestler, so I might be biased.

 

The two big matches are completely different and two of the best in WWF/E history. They had their all-time great moment at the 97 Rumble when Bret came out, while Austin was alone. The promos were great and everything was hitting on all cylinders.

 

The purpose of this thread is three-fold.

 

1) Is this the greatest feud ever, if not what was?

2) Favourite parts/memories, etc..

3) I will be joining Jason Mann on Wrestlespective podcast to do the IYH match and talk about their feud, so if you have any questions for the show you can leave them here.

[thebrainfollower]

The only thing that prevents this from being the GOAT feud is the lack of a finish. It never really ended, Austin got hurt and never had a final match with Bret.

 

But darn I remember watching this week and week out and being so excited after 2 years of being bored with the WWF. This feud drew me back in like nothing before it had.

 

Favorite part is probably the attack on Bret in the ambulance and WM XIII of course.

[Death From Above]

The Wrestlemania match is incredible.

 

I'll also say the line "If you put a 'S' in front of Hitman, you have my exact opinion of Bret Hart!" is one of my favourite wrestling one-liners ever.

[Jingus]

Too short to be a truly all-time-greatest feud. Overall it was less than a year from start to non-finish. But they managed to make a hell of a lot of magic in that time, including what might've been the single most effective double-turn in wrestling history.

 

Anyone else like the Survivor Series match more than the Mania one? I went into the latter a bit unappreciative for how revolutionary the work was, because I'd already seen Austin in a million other Attitude floor brawls before seeing this one (I started watching in '99). The SurSer match was more of a traditional wrestling bout, which was something that became sadly much more rare from Stone Cold during his hottest streak on top.

[sek69]

I think it's probably the most important feud in WWF history. For one, Austin's early promos were what shot him from "that dude who used to be the Ringmaster who had an endless feud with Savio Vega" to the biggest star the company ever had. Then not only was the double turn great, it set up the US/Canada stuff which led to DX, which finally led to HBK/Austin passing the torch to kick off the Attitude Era.

[jpchicago23]

Bret is my favorite wrestler, The 97 HF is my favorite stable and Bret v Austin is my favorite feud. The feud and atmosphere surrounding it was unlike anything I've ever seen. The Canada/US face/heel dynamic for Bret was just awesome to see while it happened. They also both needed each other thus making it such a great cohesion. Austin needed the established WWF top guy to take him to the main event scene and Bret needed a fresh, hungry new face that would reinvigorate him. It also allowed Bret to naturally transition into becoming a heel. Something he really needed but was never presented in a good way. The Mania match allowed both guys to break out into the characters that would help make 97 one of the best years in company history quality wise.

[elliott]

I hate to say this feud wasn't the best feud ever because I think it is absolutely a candidate and I wouldn't really argue with it. I mean, you're right. Two completely different matches that were two of the best in company history. Add in all the promos & everything else and yeah its an all time great feud.

 

It kinda depends on how you define "feud" and if you separate that from "rivalry." For example, if you asked me which was better the Hart/Austin feud or Hijo del Santo/Negro Casas feud from 96-97, I'd have to stop and think about it at least. But if you are just saying "Hart/Austin feud or Santo/Casas feud" and all that Santo/Casas shit starts piling up from 87, 92, 97 & in between & beyond, it gets harder and harder to pick Austin/Bret.

 

Then there's something like New Japan vs UWF which just has dozens of great matches. I know Austin/Hart has Canadian Stampede, but NJ vs UWF has like 5 Canadian Stampede's where the 1997 Jim Neidhart role is played by 1986 Osamu Kido.

 

If "rivalries" like 30 years of Lawler/Dundee or Santo/Casas count and multi person promotion feuds like New Japan vs UWF or Tenryu vs NJ are allowed, I dunno if Bret vs Austin makes my top 20.

 

BUt no matter what the answer is Carlos Colon vs Stan Hansen.

[Grimmas]

 

Anyone else like the Survivor Series match more than the Mania one? I went into the latter a bit unappreciative for how revolutionary the work was, because I'd already seen Austin in a million other Attitude floor brawls before seeing this one (I started watching in '99). The SurSer match was more of a traditional wrestling bout, which was something that became sadly much more rare from Stone Cold during his hottest streak on top.

 

https://prowrestlingsuperblog.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/top-100-matches-lists-from-the-pro-wrestling-super-show/

 

Top 100 Matches (Lists from the Pro-Wrestling Super Show)

 

My List:

14) Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (Submission, WWF WrestleMania XIII, 3/23/1997)

8) Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF Survivor Series, 11/17/1996)

[Sidebottom]

I feel the WM13 match being so damn good has always cast a shadow over other tremendous things the two did together. Austin deserves so much credit for his interview appearances with the early "stone cold" character leading into Survivor Series 96. He was tremendous as a vicious bastard. Bret was the perfect protagonist to go against this and their MSG match at Survivor Series is the biggest offender of "in the shadow of WM13" because judged on its own merit, it's a classic match.

[Sean Liska]

The Wrestlemania match is incredible.

 

I'll also say the line "If you put a 'S' in front of Hitman, you have my exact opinion of Bret Hart!" is one of my favourite wrestling one-liners ever.

 

I was at Mania 13. I remember Austin's promo during the pre-show, when he said, "Bret, you keep talking about getting screwed, well I'm not bringing a condom to the ring, just a can of whoop-ass", or something like that. The buzz from the crowd after that was so great. That, the pop when he unwrapped the chair from his ankle and hit Bret with it, and the drama of the final sharpshooter were the moments where I really realized WWE had something special.

[MoS]

 

The Wrestlemania match is incredible.

 

I'll also say the line "If you put a 'S' in front of Hitman, you have my exact opinion of Bret Hart!" is one of my favourite wrestling one-liners ever.

 

I was at Mania 13. I remember Austin's promo during the pre-show, when he said, "Bret, you keep talking about getting screwed, well I'm not bringing a condom to the ring, just a can of whoop-ass", or something like that. The buzz from the crowd after that was so great. That, the pop when he unwrapped the chair from his ankle and hit Bret with it, and the drama of the final sharpshooter were the moments where I really realized WWE had something special.

 

 

Unrelated, but how vicious was the audience hate for Rock? Bret has claimed in his book that all the boos and "Die Rocky Die" chants were done by a handful of ECW supporters who used to travel to every show and boo him. Of course, Chicago has a reputation now, but I do not know if it was considered a smark city in 97 as well.

[Jingus]

I remember Cornette and some others saying that Chicago was a fairly smarky and hardcore crowd even back in the 80s. They did boo Garvin against Flair.

 

Come to think of it, who ran Chicago before the national takeover? Was it an AWA town? It's got a long history of being a big town for rassling, both of the legendary Gotch-Hackenschmidt matches took place there, as did Buddy Rogers' title win over Pat O'Connor.

[Ricky Jackson]

Chicago is a major wrestling city. The AWA ran it from the late- 60s to the mid-80s. Prior to that it was run by Fred Kohler, one of the major promoters post-WW2. His TV from the International Amphitheater was perhaps the seminal show of the Golden Age of wrestling. Vince Sr co-promoted with Kohler during the period when Buddy Rogers was NWA champ and they set the attendance record at Comiskey Park in 61

[pmo]

I remember Cornette and some others saying that Chicago was a fairly smarky and hardcore crowd even back in the 80s. They did boo Garvin against Flair.

 

Come to think of it, who ran Chicago before the national takeover? Was it an AWA town? It's got a long history of being a big town for rassling, both of the legendary Gotch-Hackenschmidt matches took place there, as did Buddy Rogers' title win over Pat O'Connor.

 

From I gather it was co promoted by Brusier and Gagne who bought it from Fred Kohler. Eventually Gagne took it over full time.

[victory]

Chicago is a major wrestling city. The AWA ran it from the late- 60s to the mid-80s. Prior to that it was run by Fred Kohler, one of the major promoters post-WW2. His TV from the International Amphitheater was perhaps the seminal show of the Golden Age of wrestling. Vince Sr co-promoted with Kohler during the period when Buddy Rogers was NWA champ and they set the attendance record at Comiskey Park in 61

The AWA copromoted their Chicago shows with the Bruiser's promotion the WWA. A lot of old school Chicago fans our bigger fans of Bruiser's promotion over the AWA.

 

I liked both as a kid. Sadly my Dad never took me to the Amp as I was still young and that was a rough crowd. Supposedly a lot of "We Want Blood" chants during Bruiser and Crusher vs whoever matches.

[Bierschwale]

 

Anyone else like the Survivor Series match more than the Mania one? I went into the latter a bit unappreciative for how revolutionary the work was, because I'd already seen Austin in a million other Attitude floor brawls before seeing this one (I started watching in '99). The SurSer match was more of a traditional wrestling bout, which was something that became sadly much more rare from Stone Cold during his hottest streak on top.

 

https://prowrestlingsuperblog.wordpress.com/2016/01/19/top-100-matches-lists-from-the-pro-wrestling-super-show/

 

Top 100 Matches (Lists from the Pro-Wrestling Super Show)

 

My List:

14) Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (Submission, WWF WrestleMania XIII, 3/23/1997)

8) Bret Hart vs Steve Austin (WWF Survivor Series, 11/17/1996)

 

 

Yeah, I am absolutely on board with SS being the better match. The Mania match is more spectacular and all of that, and more importantly it's a very unique match for the promotion, we all know what makes that match great. But SS feels as close to being a universal main event level match as anything ever, something that you could run in any building in the world and have it go nuclear.

[mprice]

As I said in a few other threads, Wrestlemania 13 is probably my favorite match to date. It is just such an easy watch (in terms of time passing by while watching it) and yet so brutal in its content and storyline. I love the Survivor Series 96 match as well but actually have not seen the Revenge of the Taker match, so I can't be the judge of that match.

 

Overall the story line was amazing because you had Austin who was scratching and clawing through the end of 96 into the beginning of 97 suddenly get the rocket treatment at the Royal Rumble and into contention from then until basically 2003 when he rode off into the sunset. Then there was Bret who had been there for years including making it to the top of the mountain only to be challenged by someone "new." It is a simple story that even has been taking place recently with the Owens/Cena matches, though it seems like the main reason Austin/Bret isn't the best is for one simple reason:

 

Much like others have said, Austin/Bret does not have a satisfying conclusion. If not for Montreal there may have been a resolution with Austin finally conquering Bret. But instead we as fans got to wonder "what if."

[Lust Hogan]

I love this feud as well. My favorite Austin moment is when I believe he and Bret are doing a split screen interview and towards the end they are trying to wrap it up and he says, ".....and you can quit counting me down....." and assaults one of the TV guys. I was in college and wasn't expecting that. My favorite Bret moment was when he shoved Vince down and cursed him out after being screwed again.

 

What made this feud work for me was that you could see the perspectives of both characters. Austin HAD to challenge Bret and do whatever it took to get to the top while Bret tried to remain a hero but not only was it costing him matches but he was losing popularity to a guy he considered a villain. Add to that the fact that the crowd was cheering Austin and you could understand and somewhat sympathize with Bret.

 

Great all-time feud!!

[MoS]

I love this feud as well. My favorite Austin moment is when I believe he and Bret are doing a split screen interview and towards the end they are trying to wrap it up and he says, ".....and you can quit counting me down....." and assaults one of the TV guys. I was in college and wasn't expecting that. My favorite Bret moment was when he shoved Vince down and cursed him out after being screwed again.

 

What made this feud work for me was that you could see the perspectives of both characters. Austin HAD to challenge Bret and do whatever it took to get to the top while Bret tried to remain a hero but not only was it costing him matches but he was losing popularity to a guy he considered a villain. Add to that the fact that the crowd was cheering Austin and you could understand and somewhat sympathize with Bret.

 

Great all-time feud!!

 

 

So many things that Austin did were so innovative at that time for modern WWF, you have to give him a lot of credit for going out there and seizing his opportunity with both hands and making it count.

 

I remember when he was once cutting a promo, and the mic went out, and he made what would have been an embarrassing gaffe of production into a great scene when he just straight-up turned and said "You're gonna give me a piece of equipment that works, son, or do I need to come down and whoop your ass?" Going back and watching him find himself and his character week by week has been a really fun experience.

[Lust Hogan]

Is there any compilation of the Austin stuff on YouTube or DailyMotion? That would be fun to watch!

[MoS]

Don't think there is too much of late 96-mid 97, which is when he was truly finding his feet and exploring his character. Most of the stuff on YT is the greatest hits compilation when he became the biggest star on Earth.

[Lust Hogan]

 

Here is some stuff. It's off one of the early Austin videos.

[MoS]

Owen's outrage at the end was priceless haha.

[SomethingSavage]

I've been revisiting a lot of '97 WCW and WWF this year, and it's really interesting to see Austin finding his voice in that early phase of the Stone Cold character - especially surrounding Mania and the fallout of the face turn.

 

There are three or four interviews early on where he is an absolute beast. He's spitting this visceral venom, but he's also making little mistakes and flubs occasionally. He'll get so fired up that he'll trip over words, stumble over insults, or whatever.

 

That doesn't take anything AT ALL away from the work, of course. If anything, it adds an organic layer of realism. He comes across as this guy that's chomping at the bit, foaming at the mouth, and just WAITING to break off the chain to get at Bret's throat. It's insane.

 

But yeah. There are times you can see him getting visibly frustrated with himself for making a minor mistake. Or even when he says something stupid? You can IMMEDIATELY see a light go off in his eyes, and he'll go into recovery mode automatically.

 

There's one interview in particular, in which he starts to go down this goofy path of ranting about being the RULER OF THE WORLD. It's some cheesy, Sid-like shit. And it's well after the Mania match. But it's full-blown heel spiel. And you can see he regrets it instantly.

 

But there's a compelling, charming element in exploring this time of BOTH guy's careers from this time. I'd definitely say they were very much driving one another forward - spurring each other on. It's a trailblazing rivalry on several levels, if nothing else.

[Boon]

I do love this feud, I will have to re-watch on the network, as a kid I had all the Best Of Raw comps and this plays out great on them. I remember really enjoying the ROTT match and then the street fight the next night with the ambulance angle.

 

Looking back this really was the foundation for Austin-McMahon, and I don't know if Bret gets the credit he deserves for his work with Austin and the attitude era.

 

The one question I would ask everyone is, what and when would the blow off have had been? If Bret didn't leave, do we get Bret-Austin at Mania for the title? Or do we wait until Summerslam 98 for it?