Concussions-Wrestler's Health Discussion

[Grimmas]

Daniel Bryan taking this new test that revealed lesions of the brain that normal tests did not lead to an interesting discussion on the Talking Sheets mid-week Round Table. I would love to continue and flesh that out even more here.

 

With this new test, shouldn't the WWE give that test to everybody who has had some concussions, just to be sure? Even if that risks forcing a lot of the roster to retire? Isn't the heath more important?

 

To go along with that, how far can a wrestling promotion go to protect wrestlers. Should diving headbutts, back bumps, etc.. be banned? Should styles be changed or schedules be changed to avoid major issues like Bryan had or Benoit or Angle had?

 

Another thing brought up was all the praise of particularly dangerous styles like AJPW which killed Misawa. Should that praise still be given or should we realize it's very dangerous still and say it's exciting, but rate it differently. Maybe praise a safer, but still good style?

 

How important should the health of wrestlers be?

[BigBadMick]

'With this new test, shouldn't the WWE give that test to everybody who has had some concussions, just to be sure? Even if that risks forcing a lot of the roster to retire? Isn't the heath more important?'

 

It should be, but just IMAGINE running that by Vince.

[joeg]

I think anybody who plays a contact sport has had a concussion or two. I had 3 that were diagnosed and probably 2 or 3 more that weren't. That was back 15 years ago in the dark ages when you sat out a few days to a week and went back to practice as soon as the headaches went away. Looking at wrestling I'm amazed that there aren't more concussions. It would seem a back bump is a concussion waiting to happen. Flair didn't do any back bumps after the plane crash and he seemed to get by. I honestly have a hard time watching some of the head drops in AJPW and the chair shots in ECW. There are a lot of guys that seem to do just fine without taking back bumps without doing headbutts or taking chair shots.

[Slasher]

WWE needs to protect their workers? How about telling Bryan not to do suicide dives every week like it was a low level move like a hiptoss. The fact is Daniel Bryan had one of the most physically taxing movesets out of everyone in the WWE. Like the old adage goes, "Work smart instead of work hard". Obviously other guys still get concussions but he was getting them way too often compared to the others.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

As long as there are 20 bumps every match, there are going to be lots of concussions and (more important, IMO) tons of sub-concussive blows. I would expect, if someone important actually cared, that if wrestlers' brains were tested for CTE the way ex-NFL players' are, the results would be pretty similar.

[PhilTLL]

They already found it in Benoit and Andrew Martin. And you're right about sub-concussive blows--virtually *all* wrestlers could be (probably are) suffering brain damage that could lead to CTE, even when everything goes just right. That's part of the big lawsuit against WWE, as I recall.

 

As for the questions in the topic, the answer to virtually all of them is "yes," and the answer to "How important should wrestlers' health be?" is "More than it is." But wrestling is even more resistant to change than football, structurally as well as culturally. Wrestling doesn't require thousands of highly skilled, experienced players to choose from, just a relative few decent athletes crazy enough to do it. It's got even more of that "passion that you choose to do despite the risks" thing than football, there's no union, and nobody's parents have to sign a waiver in the 8th grade to get them started.

[Loss]

I've said this before, but the reasons careers tend to go longer in lucha libre is that they don't take flat back bumps. Then there's Ric Flair, who didn't take flat back bumps because of the plane crash who had a long career and still gets around well today. Then there was Diamond Dallas Page who never took flat back bumps and had a productive career well into his 40s that came to a halt when WWE told him he needed to start taking flat back bumps. It's not a cure-all, but it's a start.

[Grimmas]

I've said this before, but the reasons careers tend to go longer in lucha libre is that they don't take flat back bumps. Then there's Ric Flair, who didn't take flat back bumps because of the plane crash who had a long career and still gets around well today. Then there was Diamond Dallas Page who never took flat back bumps and had a productive career well into his 40s that came to a halt when WWE told him he needed to start taking flat back bumps. It's not a cure-all, but it's a start.

Does anyone know why the WWE cares if someone bumps on their back or their side?

[Loss]

They do. Undertaker got mad at DDP bumping on his side and complained to management, who made him start bumping on his back. I think he wrestled another 6-7 months.

[Grimmas]

They do. Undertaker got mad at DDP bumping on his side and complained to management, who made him start bumping on his back. I think he wrestled another 6-7 months.

Why do they care? It's not terribly noticeable or anything unless you are looking for it. If it cuts down on one single concussion why would they not switch?

[Loss]

It's sadly a company where they see everything they do as religion. That was 15 years ago, so it's possible they would be more open to it now, but I haven't even seen someone like Dave make that connection, so I'm not sure WWE would.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I felt they should have banned the diving headbutt 15 years ago when there was a lot of speculation that Benoit's use of the move contributed to his neck damage. It's dangerous and it doesn't look that impressive.

 

I believe that if everyone on the current WWE roster was to take the same eVox test that Bryan took, we would see similar results in a lot of them, which is why I expect the official WWE position, initially at least, will be that it is an unproven test and that Bryan chose to retire on the advice of Dr. Maroon.

[Matt D]

It's sadly a company where they see everything they do as religion. That was 15 years ago, so it's possible they would be more open to it now, but I haven't even seen someone like Dave make that connection, so I'm not sure WWE would.

 

I feel like someone could get Flair to start talking about that as a talking point on a weekly basis, just because it was something he did that other people should do and makes him look good.

[sek69]

Didn't DDP's injury come from him trying to protect his opponent on a superplex that got fucked up and caused him to land wrong so the other guy's neck wouldn't get broken?

 

Also I agree that every wrestler should take the test Bryan took, but I would gather there's probably a large percentage of guys who won't want to for fear of what the results would be and/or being told they have to retire. It's become a running gag that WWE keeps doing angles where they say the people they employ live in constant fear of getting fired since they'd be homeless without WWE, but the truth is a lot of wrestlers probably don't have a Plan B if their careers end suddenly.

[fxnj]

The flat back bumps talking point is nothing new. I've seen it repeated since the CTE stories went mainstream in late 2009/early 2010, and the more I think of the idea the less I'm convinced that switching to rolling bumps would be some magic cure-all for wrestler injuries. The lucha comparison doesn't work because 1) it doesn't account for confounding variables like schtick-based 6-mans being far more common than serious singles and there being far less traveling and 2) you're just assuming old luchadors aren't banged up as well and continuing because they need the money or that the maestros style in specific works well to hide their physical decline. Also, Flair is hardly a paradigm of health these days.

 

I also have doubts if people acting concussions are the only injuries that matter have much actual experience playing any kind of sports. There's shitloads of other horrible things that happen to wrestlers like torn rotator cuffs, ACLs, back muscles etc. The media acts they just get some expensive surgery and move on but the truth is serious injuries stay with you for the rest of your life and likely to cause issues later on. Look at all the surgeries Rey has had for example. If you don't want to see guys get hurt just stop watching wrestling.

 

Hence, the concept of wanting moves banned or condemning matches that have such moves sounds utterly ridiculous to me. I wouldn't risk a concussion on a head drop, just like I wouldn't destroy my knees off high flying moves, but these guys grown men who have every right to decide what they do to their bodies. If some guys think a head drop would push a match to the next level they don't need some internet smarks who've never stepped foot in a ring policing them for it.

[Slasher]

Other injuries are bad and could even be life altering but considering the brain is either the most important or the 2nd most important of vital organs depending on your perspective. Of course it is much worse an injury than say...a torn quad might be. That's a brain you rely on heavily for the rest of your life...it's not an organ you want malfunctioning.

[Loss]

All the rest of those silly injury problems would be solved if everyone would just do DDP Yoga.

[Slasher]

That said, banning moves are not the answer. The only true solution is banning the sport, period, and that's not happening.

[Jingus]

There is no one thing which is "THE answer" to any large, complex problem. There never is. All we can do is take the greatest number of little measures possible to chip away at the overall issue.

[PhilTLL]

I also have doubts if people acting concussions are the only injuries that matter have much actual experience playing any kind of sports. There's shitloads of other horrible things that happen to wrestlers like torn rotator cuffs, ACLs, back muscles etc.

Concussions and CTE are the basis of the gigantic class-action lawsuits, the Hollywood movies, and the potential upheaval of the entire sports industry, not orthopedic injuries. I'm following the professionals' lead.

[RyanClingman]

 

I also have doubts if people acting concussions are the only injuries that matter have much actual experience playing any kind of sports. There's shitloads of other horrible things that happen to wrestlers like torn rotator cuffs, ACLs, back muscles etc.

Concussions and CTE are the basis of the gigantic class-action lawsuits, the Hollywood movies, and the potential upheaval of the entire sports industry, not orthopedic injuries. I'm following the professionals' lead.

 

 

Also, I would think that, generally speaking, orthopedic injuries aren't life threatening. Brain injuries seem far more risky, with possible life, career, and personality altering ramifications at play. This doesn't mean that other injuries shouldn't be taken more seriously though, obviously.

[pantherwagner]

The flat back bumps talking point is nothing new. I've seen it repeated since the CTE stories went mainstream in late 2009/early 2010, and the more I think of the idea the less I'm convinced that switching to rolling bumps would be some magic cure-all for wrestler injuries. The lucha comparison doesn't work because 1) it doesn't account for confounding variables like schtick-based 6-mans being far more common than serious singles and there being far less traveling and 2) you're just assuming old luchadors aren't banged up as well and continuing because they need the money or that the maestros style in specific works well to hide their physical decline. Also, Flair is hardly a paradigm of health these days.

 

Old luchadores aren't banged up nearly as badly as their US counterparts.

I'm not sure where the less travel part comes from? They tend to work a lot more dates than a regular US wrestler and Mexico is a pretty big country, even though obviously not as big as the US. The AAA guys criss-cross the country a lot, though they travel in really comfortable buses most of the time.

 

I think the three big factors are:

- The flat back bumps that Loss already mentioned

- American wrestlers tend to fall on their knees a lot, even when selling punches and what not.

- Less steroid usage (again, talking about the older wrestlers) leads to less muscle tears. I don't know if anybody ever in lucha has had a quad detached from the freakin bone.

 

The dives seem to be the leading cause of injury in Mexico. There are even "interesting" injuries like Hector Garza's old ruptured ballsack after doing the tornillo.

 

On the other hand there seem to be a lot more old guys with bad hips.

[fakeplastictrees]

Bad hips and knees is Mexico no doubt. I don't agree with the 'its a dangerous sport, so fuck it!' mentality. I think that's a cop-out. Of course its dangerous, but that doesn't mean measures shouldn't be taken. WWE officially having a season, I think will help alot and banning back bumps off punches and other basic offense. If someone is going to get slammed in some fashion and land on his/her back it should be for an impacful move. This would also mean that the majority of the roster would need to update his/her moveset. Seth Rollins had a gravy finisher where the crowd brought it, it looked like death, and Seth took zero damage doing it. Kofi has the Trouble In Paradise, Big Show has the KO punch, Reigns has the Superman Punch, etc. I would like to see more of wrestler's finishers and signature moves going more to awesome looking punches/kicks/elbows, etc. and less of the Salina Del Sol's. Every wrestler I can think of at this moment has some type of move that would allow him/her to maintain credibility without turning any eyes in the audience. Harper has the big boot, Rowan has the little girl ballerina kick he loves, Dean should honestly go full Roddy Piper and just have The Sleeper as his finisher. Seriously, within the last 15 years WWE got over guys using a full nelson, sleeper, and Fireman's carry as finishing moves.

 

I don't think this is much of a jump.