Grimmas Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 This may well be one of the worst booked main event feuds in the history of the WWE. I can't really think of a worse one.Triple H vs Booker T at Wrestlemania XIX will always be the gold standard for worst booked main events in company history. Triple H getting super racist for no real reason against a super hot Booker T, then beating him clean in the middle, killing Booker's chances of ever being a real main eventer wasn't just bad booking, it was an extremely shitty thing to do. Triple H would have to start using every bad stereotypical Samoan trope in the book, like right out of Roddy Piper circa 1985, for this to come close. It's worse than just beating Booker T cleanly after building the match with the race issue, which practically required him to lose just to pay off the storyline correctly. He beat Booker T cleanly after laying around for like 15 minutes before covering Booker T and not even allowing him to kick out when pretty much every match ever booked in history has the guy kick out a delayed pin...especially such a long delayed one. So essentially Booker T is portrayed as such an overmatched midcarder who the pedigree absolutely killed. I went back and re-watched that match a few years ago. If you forget about the build and forget that Triple H is who he is, it's a real good match. The pause before the pin is not that bad and makes sense in the context of the match. It's a really good like *** 1/2 match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 It's worse than just beating Booker T cleanly after building the match with the race issue, which practically required him to lose just to pay off the storyline correctly. He beat Booker T cleanly after laying around for like 15 minutes before covering Booker T and not even allowing him to kick out when pretty much every match ever booked in history has the guy kick out a delayed pin...especially such a long delayed one. So essentially Booker T is portrayed as such an overmatched midcarder who the pedigree absolutely killed.As an old indy-worker friend of mine once put it: "At Wrestlemania 19, it took three Rock Bottoms for the Rock to pin Stone Cold. It took three F-5s for Brock to pin Angle. It took three big legdrops for Hogan to pin Vince. But bah gawd, it only took one pedigree for HHH to pin Booker!" The pause before the pin is not that bad and makes sense in the context of the match.It absolutely is that bad and makes no sense. I just went back and timed it, and there's a gap of over half a minute in between the pedigree and the cover. That's a pretty big pause. It's the worst kind of "delayed selling" bullshit, where a guy is just sitting there helpless, then outta-nowhere he suddenly has the strength to hit his finisher but then somehow doesn't have the strength to crawl right after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Even if I forget about the storyline they used to build to their match and judged it strictly on the match itself alone, I am still walking away with the impression that Booker T was presented compared to Triple H the equivalent of TAKA in a throwaway television match where Triple H allowed him to get a few spots in to convince people that he is a team player and a guy willing to "put over" someone in a losing effort. It really looked like Booker T's push was hastily conceived with no real sincere intention to elevate him in any tangible way. Remember, Booker got the match at Mania by winning that battle royal like a month prior. They rushed through it as if they were just punting the match out of the way so the real main events (Angle/Lesnar and Vince/Hogan) and then they put themselves in the corner by doing a storyline that absolutely required a good ending but also knowing that Triple H had big matches on tap post-Mania like Goldberg as an example. So they completely sacrificed Booker T and sunk him and pushed out of the way. I don't think he was ever treated seriously ever again after that. Even his title reign a few years later was him being a complete clown and not at all taken seriously. By the way that title run? It happened after Rey Mysterio was booked really badly as well as champion. So they turned to Booker to end that miserable reign and keeping the belt warm for whoever the next guy they wanted to push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 So they turned to Booker to end that miserable reign and keeping the belt warm for whoever the next guy they wanted to push.And the literal next guy to win that particular belt? HHH's good friend Batista. This shit writes itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 I think that happened after Batista and Booker got into a fight backstage because Batista ripped the Smackdown crew apart in interviews with Booker basically standing up for everyone in that locker room. Man that was such a morale booster, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersonic Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 I'm trying to not be lazy and work on a longer piece about this theory to come out sometime in the next 5 or 6 days. That said I will say two quick things 1. I don't think Stomper's point that is highlighted by Parties is wrong or misplaced. In fact to a large degree that's my theory. I would absolutely say that I've accepted that this is a combination of incompetence and HHH being HHH, the difference is I believe much of the incompetence has been managed, encouraged, or at the very least enhanced by HHH's actions. The "conspiracy theory" tag is something people are latching on to and I get why. I can see how the term itself, and some aspects of the theory come across as cloak and daggery to people. That said, no one seems to object to the idea that HHH has done things to undermine people in the past, though in many cases the arguments are at least as conspiratorial as what is being posed here. I also strongly doubt people will disagree with my other contentions, some of which were outlined by Loss, though I plan to go into more detail. 2. I am by no means an "insider," but over the last couple of years I have gotten closer to people in and around the wrestling business than I ever intended. The closer I have gotten the more I believe this theory to be true. Not necessarily because of any inside knowledge or backstage political shit I've heard about, but because as you see how the wrestling culture works up close the idea of deliberate sabotage as a means of solidifying or taking control really doesn't seem far fetched at all. Hopefully I'll get my shit together and knock out something readable and coherent in the next few days. I'll do my best to answer any objections or challenges people have to my argument, as long as they are actually challenges to my argument and not to an argument I'm not making. Still waiting for your detailed, elaborate piece on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 I find the idea pretty preposterous. As far as I can ascertain from reading the thread, the theory is that HHH is sabotaging the Roman Reigns push because he is a Kevin Dunn project. The hypothesis fails on so many levels. Firstly, who does it benefit? Dunn isn't going to take the heat if it all goes wrong - if people are getting fired it will be further down the creative ladder. Especially since Vince himself is massively behind RR. The idea that it will give HHH more power and more space for his projects at the top with Vince & KD stepping aside after their ignominious failure is a hell of a jump. It benefits everyone in this company to have Roman Reigns as a successful brand leader, shifting merchandise, drawing big numbers. It isn't in the interests of HHH to have RR tank at the top. Secondly, watch an episode of Raw. The booking is hideous. They can't get anyone over. It is far, far more plausible that Reigns has been hamstrung by woeful booking than by a political hit. They are especially dreadful at booking faces - everything the scriptwriting team thinks is cool, likable or funny is so out of sync with the fanbase that the majority of faces get lukewarm reactions or are hated. The only legitimate top faces they gave produced since John Cena and Randy Orton broke through are CM Punk and Daniel Bryan who basically got themselves over despite the way they were booked or plans the creative team had for them. It is especially hard to get a white meat babyface over with this crowd. They aren't sabotaging him, they are just pushing against the tide. They believe they have the power to choose the top face, and reject anyone who it feels like is being shoved down their throat. Since the crowd became 'smart' or whatever, who have they got over as a top babyface who hasn't come from an indie background or is a massive risktaker? And of course the final point is, has this even been a failure? There was a train of thought not long ago that being face or heel was not important anymore. What was truly important was getting a big reaction, any reaction. Like John Cena, the top face who is booed out of the building. Roman Reigns provokes a reaction, there is noise, emotion, feeling. That is a success in the current climate. Nobody is going to convince me it is 100% X-Pac heat. HHHs let his whole faction be squashed by The Shield for months on end. If he really wanted to sabotage Reigns he could have vetoed all that. They made a huge mistake not giving RR the strap at WM last year. The way the match with Lesnar played out made it believable he could have taken advantage of the lucky post shot to slay the giant. Instead you get months of the tedious, predictable Rollins heel reign and the momentum is lost. Nevertheless they should stick with him. He is the face of the company in the way that Dean Ambrose can never be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Counterpoint: Ambrose has been pretty goddamn over as a babyface despite being booked like shit most of the last year (or two?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Counterpoint: Ambrose has been pretty goddamn over as a babyface despite being booked like shit most of the last year (or two?). He is somewhat of an indie darling though, and has cred with the type of crowd that are vociferous at shows. Roman Reigns is perceived as a corporate product to those same fans. It is much easier for a AJ Styles, Daniel Bryan or Cesaro to stay over with crowds despite terrible booking. It is a lot harder for a WWE creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I disagree. Ambrose doesn't have anywhere close to the same indy cred that the others did. Wasn't he essentially a garbage fed wrestler with CZW and their ilk? I think he started getting a buzz when he was already in NXT anf feuding with their nonwrestlers. But then they gave the Shield opportunities to stand out but Ambrose pretty much sank to #3 in the stable's hierarchy. He went from being the primary talker of the group and getting midcard belts that he wasn't defending. Reigns was the heavy hitter and they tried to portray Rollins as the brains behind the operation. Dean was forgotten about...until they turned Rollins on the other two. It was pretty clear they thought Reigns would be the guy who feuded with Rollins but he got hurt I think and they gave Ambrose the ball and he exceeded most expectations. That Ambrose is as close to WWE creation as it gets and he got over despite pullibg sophomoric pranks and childish with insults...a sure recipe for the fans to turn on but it's never happened. He made it work. So yes Ambrose counts as a guy people got behind for his WWE perskna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchaundead Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Ambrose did a solid amount in Evolve/DG USA and Chikara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Oh yeah that's right, he did work for PWG too I think. But I don't think he was signed to the WWE with much fanfare as the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I don't know, wrestlingforum.com's favorite line about Ambrose is "let him be his Jon Moxley character~!" despite the fact that I doubt more than a handful of them actually watched him in the indies while he was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I am guessing those guys think Ambrose is being booked like a typical prankster babyface and assumes Jon Moxley would have that edge to really be a good main event character. Jon Moxley wouldn't lose because of a hologram or a television set. Dean Ambrose does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I don't know, wrestlingforum.com's favorite line about Ambrose is "let him be his Jon Moxley character~!" despite the fact that I doubt more than a handful of them actually watched him in the indies while he was there. Get over wrestlingforum.com! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I don't know, wrestlingforum.com's favorite line about Ambrose is "let him be his Jon Moxley character~!" despite the fact that I doubt more than a handful of them actually watched him in the indies while he was there. Get over wrestlingforum.com! I use that as a barometer for the lowest common denominator WWE fan. When Dolph Ziggler still gets good reactions then I know that there must just be a lot of really stupid people going to WWE shows and wrestlingforum.com seems to be a place where a lot of them congregate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Ewiak Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 From the latest observer - "Exactly how much of this is legit or exaggerated you can make up your own mind, but the Vince McMahon vs. HHH dynamic is something that everyone is talking about internally, even more since Shane McMahon appeared on the scene. The feeling is that if Shane McMahon actually does come back into the company in an executive capacity that it’ll be Vince playing Shane against HHH and Stephanie. While publicly HHH will say Vince loves NXT, the internal perception is very different, seeing it as a touring brand filled with so many guys Vince doesn’t believe are money. We do know there was a lot of heat on HHH and complaints for not selling the Reigns beating in public, because he had to get his face on the NXT show in London knowing it would be a super show in front of that crowd and he didn’t want anyone to not know it was his creation and baby. The questions regarding Reigns given how he’s not gotten over with HHH as his adversary for so long has led to plenty of finger pointing, although a lot of people pointed to the crotch chop on Raw as the sign HHH is no longer really behind the cause of getting Reigns over as a face. Perhaps that’s just paranoia and frustration, but the way Reigns was eliminated at the Rumble and the HHH/Reigns interaction with him has been curious to say the least." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Nice to see Dave and Wade see the light this week regarding the Hit. It's real folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 The tin foil hat wearer in me has to wonder if this is another one of those worked attempts to get Triple H some goodwill or the benefit of doubt from people like us who believes he is just as much a problem for the WWE as an out of touch and yet stubborn Vince is. I mean all of this sounds like we are meant to believe Triple H is just a pawn for Vince to fuck around with. We know Vince's reputation of a guy who lovea internal discord and competition from people...most notable example being Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels before they decided to settle on Michaels as the guy and exiling Bret to WCW. I also wonder if this means Shane has expressed a desire or even just willingness to get involved with WWE again as an exec. Otherwise worrying about Shane would be wasting energy if Shane is only there as a performer for Mania and has every intention to leave again after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Nice to see Dave and Wade see the light this week regarding the Hit. It's real folks What did Wade say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 also Shane's promo on Monday was changed right before air time and he was apparently told to mention firing Steph and Hunter if he wins at Mania if they refuse to quit. Well it changed or he forgot I guess. It could have just been confusion and he forgot but... The political tension between Vince and HHH is at an all time high right now because Vince has Shane as leverage. from the sounds of it the opening of RAW was going to be between Shane and Steph but it was changed to Shane and Vince. Thye just pretended Steph's promo on the 2/29 Raw never happened. Bryan said Monday that they had a big segment between Shane and Steph planned for Raw (on 3/7)> Didn't happen. Yeah stuff is going down backstage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 We play the audio of Wade and talk about the political hit on this week's Talking Sheet Mid-Week https://t.co/upWfcXjw3S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 I would laugh if the whole thing ends up like Tom Benson (owner of New Orleans Saints and Pelicans) basically scrubbed his granddaughter and grandson Rita and Ryan LeBlanc out of his will and successor plan. But I can't believe that they actually think Shane is a good leverage to use...it's already been said that Shane is just a performer to do them a solid by filling out the Mania card with another significant match that they did not have before because of the injuries. They have already invested too much time in grooming Stephanie as his successor and Triple H as a guy that he expects to move into a top 2 executive position. I know Vince is an unpredictable crazy old coot nowadays but who does all this drama really benefit in the end? Can't think of abyone as the winner besides Kevin Dunn who would presumably be still employed if Shane moved in instead of Stephanie...maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Dave Meltzer wrote upon Shane's return: "Vince had said that nobody was going to take his spot before he dies, unless they could be so ruthless to figuratively stab him in the gut and steal it. Shane attempted to take his advice, but it didn’t work out." Thinking logically about a smooth succession doesn't make sense with an owner that thinks that way. I'm sure there was an element of "let's see how Hunter reacts to this", even though it made sense for (short-term) business too. Another test for Hunter to pass, whilst also providing Vince with some perverse pleasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Man, if we tried to tell people about the wrestling business...they'd never believe us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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