Wrestlers who had a lot of great matches but aren't great

[ohtani's jacket]

Havoc.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here you go: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31793-jvk-reviews-pimped-matches-from-late-90s-10s/&do=findComment&comment=5695623

 

Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio Jr (10/26/97)

 

Seems like there are four people on commentary here: Schiavone, Heenan, Tenay and Dusty. Tenay immediately annoying. Rey is dressed like a purple Riddler in a mask. Flip by Rey into a back suplex by Eddie. Vertical suplex and a beauty. Tilt a whirl backbreaker. Cover gets two. Neat offensive stretch by Gurrerro. Abdominal stretch. Goes for the mask a bit. Tenay needs to fuck off and soon, I bet the Meltzer boys loved him, I couldn't hate him more.

 

Back flip from the top rope into a DDT by Rey. What a spot! Drop kick by Eddie to knock Rey outside. Eddie is still holding his head after the DDT, hooray for long term selling. Rick Rude camel clutch by Eddie. Rips the mask a bit. Tenay, literally I couldn't give a flying shit about Eddie's history as the Black Tiger, stfu already you nerdy whiny twat! This shit isn't getting anything over to me, it's just annoying. He needs to piss off as soon as possible. I think Heenan might feel the same.

 

Some chops by Eddie. Rey from the top with a plancha. Great clothesline to cut off flippy floppy shit from Rey by Eddie. Head scissor thing to the outside by Rey. From the top headscissors after a somersault by Rey. Corkscrew moonsault thing by Rey. I've never really been into this flashy stuff, it's not my thing. Eddie gets his knees up and then just powerbombs the fuck out of Rey. See that's more like it! Powerbomb mutha fucker!

 

Spinwheel kick by Rey. Goes for the springboard hurricanrana and Eddie turns it into a backbreaker. Some great counters in this match by Eddie. Gurrerro goes for a crucifix from the top but Rey turns it into a Frankensteiner for three. Eddie dumps Rey after the match, but no beatdown.

 

Honestly, I hated Rey in this match. Eddie is working this intense sick blood feud, with every single move hitting maximum intensity with hatred. Rey was working some flip flop exhibition shit. Everything Eddie did in this match was incredible. And Rey is a great Ricky Morton for him to throw around and do cool high end offense on, but every single bit of Rey offense in this match was too much for the match Eddie seemed to be wanting to work. Tenay probably contributed to me not enjoying this too, but what this made me long for was Eddie vs. someone else. I've never been high on Rey because I've never been big on high flying, but he was way way OTT here even by his standards. Less is more sometimes. Man, I forgot how brilliant Gurrerro is though and I'm exited to explore one of my favourite wrestlers again. I can see him rocket up my GWE on this refresher course.

 

***3/4

Turns out it was 3.75 not 2.5 on the rating.

 

Must have been Atzeca vs. Dandy I went **1/2 on.

[Danish Dynamite]

The Rey/Eddie match he's talking about is one of the best experiences I ever had watching pro-wrestling. The only thing that compares to me is Bret/Diesel from Survivor Series '95. So yes, I think it's amusingly low.

I was only kidding :-) ... I often agree with JvK, but I would have that particular match quite a bit higher :-)

 

EDIT: Ah... Now I saw JvK's response... So I actually do agree with him... 3,75 seems fair to me. That's a good match.

[supremebve]

Something that tells me we're not terribly far apart: I'm almost certain that Lex Luger has more ****+ matches than Steve Austin. Far more, even. Yet I can't imagine ranking Luger above Austin, and I'd be really shocked if anyone did.

This is the best argument against so called, "Great Match Theory." Steve Austin is a guy who was able to have memorable matches based purely off the fact that he was the guy in them. Lex Luger was in a bunch of good to great matches, because he was the perfect guy for a lot of better wrestlers to bump around looking like pinballs for. Lex Luger was a good wrestler, but was rarely the reason his great matches were great. Steve Austin's great matches were mostly based on the fact that Steve Austin busted his ass to make them great. I still think great matches are more often than not a valid measure of a wrestler's greatness, but there are some outliers.

[Danish Dynamite]

Totally agree. I personally do give guys a lot if credit for being in great matches. But your point about Austin vs Luger is good. ... I do however think Luger had a couple of years where he was really good and a positive contributor to the great matches he was in.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't entirely agree, at his 88-90 peak Luger was a very good wrestler, not just carryable but actively good.

 

The reason for ranking Austin over him would be because Luger falls off a cliff after 91.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well that and "because he's Steve Austin".

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

If everything a carpenter makes falls apart, he can't be a great carpenter, no matter how well he holds a hammer. However, wrestling is not carpentry.

 

Wrestling is more like building a house. Sometimes everybody working on the house does a really great job, and thus you get a great house. Other times the plumbing is really great but there's no floors and the TV turns on when you hit the light switch.

[Loss]

My purpose in mentioning that was to point out first that we aren't far apart and second, that this idea that some of us are taking a calculator and ranking the guy with 18 great matches over the guy with 17 great matches is not a practice in which I see anyone at all engaging.

[JerryvonKramer]

Here was Austin:

 

Steve Austin (#57)

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 = 5

Intangibles 10

Great matches 3

Length of Peak 92-01 = 9 years = 6

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work technical matches

+1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace

+2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WCW, ECW, WWF)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 7

 

1. Bret Hart, 2. The Rock, 3. Kurt Angle, 4. Mick Foley, 5. Ricky Steamboat, 6. Sting, 7. Undertaker, 8. Owen Hart, 9. Chris Benoit, 10. Chris Jericho, 11. Ric Flair / Arn Anderson, 12. Triple H

 

Variety = 12 opponents = 6

 

37

 

Here was Luger:

 

Lex Luger (#134)

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5

Intangibles 4

Great matches 3

Length of Peak 88-91 = 3 years = 2

 

+ 1 ability to work heel

+ 1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches

+ 1 ability to work tags

+ 1 ability to get over in muliple markets (Florida, JCP / WCW, WWF)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

1. Ric Flair, 2. Sting, 3. Arn / Tully, 4. Barry windham, 5. Bret Hart, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Tommy Rich, 8. Great muta, 9. Pillman, 10. The Steiners, 11. Hulk Hogan

 

Variety = 11 opponents = 5

 

23

[The Man in Blak]

My purpose in mentioning that was to point out first that we aren't far apart and second, that this idea that some of us are taking a calculator and ranking the guy with 18 great matches over the guy with 17 great matches is not a practice in which I see anyone at all engaging.

 

Other than the explicit comparison made a few pages back between Kobashi's number of great matches and Bret's number of great matches, right?

[Loss]

18. 17. I don't see anyone breaking what seem like ties on stuff like that. Kobashi probably has had 300 ***+ matches that have made tape in his career. Bret has probably had 50. That type of gap hardly requires a calculator.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think that's the thing, it's the SHEER LEVEL of the gap.

 

Austin and Luger both have what, 4-6 genuinely great matches? Give or take. And then about 10-12 at the 3.75-4 sort of level (see V metric).

 

Kobashi just ... MURDERS Bret in both the G and the V. It's not even a fair fight. The 10/10 he got from me in both actually puts Bret at an advantage because the real numbers should be something like Bret's 6 G rating plays Kobashi's 30. The caps were actually an advantage to "input" candidates like Bret.

[Matt D]

I think that the cap potentially should be there, because there are hypothetically diminishing returns on great matches unless the matches are worked from different angles or make you feel something different.

 

(I don't entirely think that's the case for as emotional a wrestler as Kobashi mind you). I'm just stuck on the idea that great matches are a starting point, not a destination.

 

What they do is give a better opening for what made a wrestler great. They give you richer data. I think most often, you'd be able to use that data and come up with a picture that did show more greatness than someone with far less matches, but it's not a sure thing. You might find a lot of the same qualities relative to tremendously different qualities, the sum of which end up being more valuable over a career of different performances..

[JerryvonKramer]

In many ways the AJ boys got completely shafted by BIGLAV, which is why I ended up calling an audible on Kobashi and Misawa.

[supremebve]

If everything a carpenter makes falls apart, he can't be a great carpenter, no matter how well he holds a hammer. However, wrestling is not carpentry.

 

Wrestling is more like building a house. Sometimes everybody working on the house does a really great job, and thus you get a great house. Other times the plumbing is really great but there's no floors and the TV turns on when you hit the light switch.

To expand on this, some guys are carpenters(Bret Hart) and some guys are architects(Kobashi). A master carpenter does everything with a purpose, and can build thousands of nice, but unspectacular houses. Occasionally he builds an exceptionally beautiful house, but he still bases everything on those basic carpentry skills. Kobashi designs beautiful skyscrapers. Kobashi doesn't swing a hammer as well as Bret, but when you look at their body of work Kobashi's resume is much more impressive. This is an argument for or against the value of carpentry. I value carpentry, but much less than Grimmas, he thinks that swinging a hammer well means more than I do. I don't care whether you are the best hammer swinger ever, I can't look at your sturdy homes and say that he is better than Kobashi's skyscrapers.

 

Luger is a very good worker on a construction site, he's someone who does what he does very well. Austin is the foreman, when he is in charge he's going to get every ounce of work out of his crew. Luger is always going to have a job, but you never mistake him for a guy you can make the foreman.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

If everything a carpenter makes falls apart, he can't be a great carpenter, no matter how well he holds a hammer. However, wrestling is not carpentry.

 

Wrestling is more like building a house. Sometimes everybody working on the house does a really great job, and thus you get a great house. Other times the plumbing is really great but there's no floors and the TV turns on when you hit the light switch.

To expand on this, some guys are carpenters(Bret Hart) and some guys are architects(Kobashi). A master carpenter does everything with a purpose, and can build thousands of nice, but unspectacular houses. Occasionally he builds an exceptionally beautiful house, but he still bases everything on those basic carpentry skills. Kobashi designs beautiful skyscrapers. Kobashi doesn't swing a hammer as well as Bret, but when you look at their body of work Kobashi's resume is much more impressive. This is an argument for or against the value of carpentry. I value carpentry, but much less than Grimmas, he thinks that swinging a hammer well means more than I do. I don't care whether you are the best hammer swinger ever, I can't look at your sturdy homes and say that he is better than Kobashi's skyscrapers.

 

Luger is a very good worker on a construction site, he's someone who does what he does very well. Austin is the foreman, when he is in charge he's going to get every ounce of work out of his crew. Luger is always going to have a job, but you never mistake him for a guy you can make the foreman.

 

Beautiful prose.

[goodhelmet]

 

If everything a carpenter makes falls apart, he can't be a great carpenter, no matter how well he holds a hammer. However, wrestling is not carpentry.

 

Wrestling is more like building a house. Sometimes everybody working on the house does a really great job, and thus you get a great house. Other times the plumbing is really great but there's no floors and the TV turns on when you hit the light switch.

To expand on this, some guys are carpenters(Bret Hart) and some guys are architects(Kobashi). A master carpenter does everything with a purpose, and can build thousands of nice, but unspectacular houses. Occasionally he builds an exceptionally beautiful house, but he still bases everything on those basic carpentry skills. Kobashi designs beautiful skyscrapers. Kobashi doesn't swing a hammer as well as Bret, but when you look at their body of work Kobashi's resume is much more impressive. This is an argument for or against the value of carpentry. I value carpentry, but much less than Grimmas, he thinks that swinging a hammer well means more than I do. I don't care whether you are the best hammer swinger ever, I can't look at your sturdy homes and say that he is better than Kobashi's skyscrapers.

 

Luger is a very good worker on a construction site, he's someone who does what he does very well. Austin is the foreman, when he is in charge he's going to get every ounce of work out of his crew. Luger is always going to have a job, but you never mistake him for a guy you can make the foreman.

 

 

This is awesome!!! However, Kobashi swings a Burning Hammer!!!!

[supremebve]

 

 

If everything a carpenter makes falls apart, he can't be a great carpenter, no matter how well he holds a hammer. However, wrestling is not carpentry.

 

Wrestling is more like building a house. Sometimes everybody working on the house does a really great job, and thus you get a great house. Other times the plumbing is really great but there's no floors and the TV turns on when you hit the light switch.

To expand on this, some guys are carpenters(Bret Hart) and some guys are architects(Kobashi). A master carpenter does everything with a purpose, and can build thousands of nice, but unspectacular houses. Occasionally he builds an exceptionally beautiful house, but he still bases everything on those basic carpentry skills. Kobashi designs beautiful skyscrapers. Kobashi doesn't swing a hammer as well as Bret, but when you look at their body of work Kobashi's resume is much more impressive. This is an argument for or against the value of carpentry. I value carpentry, but much less than Grimmas, he thinks that swinging a hammer well means more than I do. I don't care whether you are the best hammer swinger ever, I can't look at your sturdy homes and say that he is better than Kobashi's skyscrapers.

 

Luger is a very good worker on a construction site, he's someone who does what he does very well. Austin is the foreman, when he is in charge he's going to get every ounce of work out of his crew. Luger is always going to have a job, but you never mistake him for a guy you can make the foreman.

 

 

This is awesome!!! However, Kobashi swings a Burning Hammer!!!!

 

If you are going to impress me swinging a hammer, that is how you do it.

[joeg]

JvK--

I would argue that Austin's peak was longer than that. I would argue that he was money from day 1. His Chris Adams feud was incredible, that was like in what 87? I'd put Austin at 15 to 20 very good matches and 3 to 5 great matches, two of which I'd say may be all time greats.

 

I also defend Luger with he might be the biggest victim ever of shitty booking.

[Goodear]

See the Steiner Screwdriver / Burning Hammer question for Dangerous Alliance wasn't so dumb after all.

[JerryvonKramer]

JvK--

I would argue that Austin's peak was longer than that. I would argue that he was money from day 1. His Chris Adams feud was incredible, that was like in what 87? I'd put Austin at 15 to 20 very good matches and 3 to 5 great matches, two of which I'd say may be all time greats.

I am lower on both that feud and his WCW 91 stuff. Watching the supercards on WTBBP Austin looked very green in early DA stuff.

[supremebve]

JvK--

I would argue that Austin's peak was longer than that. I would argue that he was money from day 1. His Chris Adams feud was incredible, that was like in what 87? I'd put Austin at 15 to 20 very good matches and 3 to 5 great matches, two of which I'd say may be all time greats.

 

I also defend Luger with he might be the biggest victim ever of shitty booking.

I think Austin's early work was more, "Wow, that guy is going to be good," than "Wow, that guy is good." He was a guy who felt like the next big thing until he actually became the next big thing. When I watch any of those old WCW matches I always wonder how the hell WCW let a talent like him leave.

 

Sting looks at Luger and wishes he got to be that kind of victim. Sting will forever be blamed for not being a draw, when WCW put him in a title feud with the Black Scorpion is probably the worst booking.

[anarchistxx]

 

 

Here was Austin:

Steve Austin (#57)

Great matches 3

 

This is a hell of a stretch. Depending on your standards, he arguably had three great matches in May 2001 alone. His work that year especially in the heel run is incredible and now seemingly underrated. The bloody self conscious epic with HHH which is one of the better matches of its type. The X7 classic with The Rock that effectively summarised and ended the "Attitude Era". The fantastic television matches with Chris Benoit. The torn quad tag. The Kurt Angle series, especially the Summerslam match which is a contender for the best match in company history, and the interesting rematch that they centre around the piledriver.

 

The random fun stuff like the Spike Dudley feud/match taking place on Smackdown - that type of mini feud just doesn't happen any more. The stuff where he tried to raise the Hardy Boyz up, or the random match with Tazz and the whippinh. The incredible character work and promos, glorious stuff like "Steve Austin appreciation night". The way he turned at the flick of a switch from goofy 'lost his edge' Austin to desperate psychotic madman doing anything to keep hold of the strap.

[anarchistxx]

Then again, I hate skyscrapers. I like old, solid, sooty, red brick industrial mills.