Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Timbo Slice]

I'm down to see where Lesnar ranks simply because I made the Han comparison and still think it's apt.

[El-P]

 

I love shoot-style. I don't give a fuck about MMA. I'm a pro-wrestling fan.

 

And I hear that from a lot of guys whose oppinions I respect. (And I don't care for MMA at all either). But when trying to make any more sense of why I have such a hard time getting in to shoot, other than just saying "I feel bored", this explanation is pretty much the best I can come up with.

 

Maybe some day I'll see the light and come join you on the shoot-side of life :-)

 

I totally understand being bored by shoot-style, especially if you try Tamura, who's just the purest of the purists. I didn't get Tamura at first. It's only when I got to like shoot-style as a whole, including by the gate of big spectacle/pro-style mentality of Takada, that Tamura became my all-time favourite.

[GOTNW]

I watch shoot style and MMA with a different brain basically. I am an MMA fan but I am as casual about it as it gets (I'll go to live shows like the UFC one that was just here a couple of weeks ago but don't really care to watch it on my monitor unless it's stuff like Pancrase, PRIDE and RIZIN which have a much "pro-wrestlinger" feel to them). Also I have a feeling people underestimate how many pro wresling moves can be done in a real fight. We've seen folks do Powerbombs, Gotch Style Piledrivers etc. and that's all without the huge weight differences we get in pro wrestling matches. And comparing shoot style matches from twenty five years ago to real fights in 2016 is just stupid.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

 

I love shoot-style. I don't give a fuck about MMA. I'm a pro-wrestling fan.

 

And I hear that from a lot of guys whose oppinions I respect. (And I don't care for MMA at all either). But when trying to make any more sense of why I have such a hard time getting in to shoot, other than just saying "I feel bored", this explanation is pretty much the best I can come up with.

 

Maybe some day I'll see the light and come join you on the shoot-side of life :-)

 

I totally understand being bored by shoot-style, especially if you try Tamura, who's just the purest of the purists. I didn't get Tamura at first. It's only when I got to like shoot-style as a whole, including by the gate of big spectacle/pro-style mentality of Takada, that Tamura became my all-time favourite.

 

 

What's the gateway to getting it? Or what would be your recommend as a starting point? I'm totally ready to give it another go (after I'm done catching up on joshi )

[Goodear]

I watch shoot style and MMA with a different brain basically. I am an MMA fan but I am as casual about it as it gets (I'll go to live shows like the UFC one that was just here a couple of weeks ago but don't really care to watch it on my monitor unless it's stuff like Pancrase, PRIDE and RIZIN which have a much "pro-wrestlinger" feel to them). Also I have a feeling people underestimate how many pro wresling moves can be done in a real fight. We've seen folks do Powerbombs, Gotch Style Piledrivers etc. and that's all without the huge weight differences we get in pro wrestling matches. And comparing shoot style matches from twenty five years ago to real fights in 2016 is just stupid.

 

Unfortunately it is 2016 and I don't have access to a time machine that will allow me to go into Worked Shoot matches not knowing what MMA looks like. Its the unfortunate consequence of having your promotion being built around this idea of being 'real' when real stuff becomes readily available. Watching worked shoot can come off like a karate instructor doing the 'this is what you do when an attacker throws a punch at you' bit but faster at times.

[GOTNW]

You could say the same thing about pro wrestling as a whole.

[Danish Dynamite]

I watch shoot style and MMA with a different brain basically. I am an MMA fan but I am as casual about it as it gets (I'll go to live shows like the UFC one that was just here a couple of weeks ago but don't really care to watch it on my monitor unless it's stuff like Pancrase, PRIDE and RIZIN which have a much "pro-wrestlinger" feel to them). Also I have a feeling people underestimate how many pro wresling moves can be done in a real fight. We've seen folks do Powerbombs, Gotch Style Piledrivers etc. and that's all without the huge weight differences we get in pro wrestling matches. And comparing shoot style matches from twenty five years ago to real fights in 2016 is just stupid.

 

Funny how you manage to negate any valid point you may or may not have, when you brush off the entire train of thought of someone else (who actually seemed to make good sense to me), by simply calling them stupid. That seems stupid to me.

[GOTNW]

I will also note Shooto (and Pancrase depending on what exactly we're talking about) as well as various Vale Tudo tournaments/promotions existed by that point as well. Shoot style has its own internal logic that differs from promotion to promotion and is completely different than MMA, let alone UFC in 2016. I'm not surprised someone who only loves american wrestling *doesn't get it*. I'm sure Goodear could find pretty of good reasons to back up his viewpoint. I mean if anything by standards such as "we know what real fights look now" and "wrestling as a con art" I'd say shoot style holds up pretty well, especially compared to all other wrestling.

 

 

Funny how you manage to negate any valid point you may or may not have, when you brush off the entire train of thought of someone else (who actually seemed to make good sense to me), by simply calling them stupid. That seems stupid to me.

Unless you're going to have counter-arguments why it isn't stupid you might as well not even bother responding.

[Goodear]

You could say the same thing about pro wrestling as a whole.

 

Well sure, but pro wrestling as a whole is comic book slug fest between the Thing and The Hulk where they can punch each other for an issue and not break their hands. There is an internal consistency that causes a lovely cognitive dissonance that allows you to ignore Irish whips as being bullshit. It's actually fun to me to try and find the point when that suspension breaks on Young Buck matches when it becomes too much for my brain to handle. Shoot style has the opposite effect where its supposed to be closer to true fighting which serves (for me watching it now 25 years later) to highlight how real it is not.

[El-P]

What's the gateway to getting it? Or what would be your recommend as a starting point? I'm totally ready to give it another go (after I'm done catching up on joshi )

 

I'm not sure what you watched already. To me like I said, Takada's big UWF-I matches were my gate to shoot-style, as they were aesthetically in the vein of UWF, but much more pro-style at heart, with a sense of epicness, milking comebacks to the max and making the whole thing dramatic. Of course you could say the same about his big matches in the second UWF, although they were much more pure in term of style since he was working a lot against Maeda and Fujiwara. Those matches are terrific too.

[Jaivl]

I watch shoot style and MMA with a different brain basically. I am an MMA fan but I am as casual about it as it gets (I'll go to live shows like the UFC one that was just here a couple of weeks ago but don't really care to watch it on my monitor unless it's stuff like Pancrase, PRIDE and RIZIN which have a much "pro-wrestlinger" feel to them). Also I have a feeling people underestimate how many pro wresling moves can be done in a real fight. We've seen folks do Powerbombs, Gotch Style Piledrivers etc. and that's all without the huge weight differences we get in pro wrestling matches. And comparing shoot style matches from twenty five years ago to real fights in 2016 is just stupid.

Bob Sapp vs Minotauro Nogueira would be one of the best wrestling matches ever.

[GOTNW]

That's an oversimplification if I've ever seen one. Internal consistency of pro wrestling is extremely questionable, even within specific styles in a specific time and changes drastically depending on time, location, promotion etc. I mean you've gone on record stating you don't really love wrestling outside of the US so I see it more as an issue of you being willing to accept non "The Thing vs The Hulk" takes on pro wrestling than an issue in styles that do that themselves.

[Bierschwale]

 

 

I think Owen was in some ways the best Hart brother, but I can't think of a better example of the difference between the terms "best" and "greatest" than in comparing Owen and Bret.

If Owen had Bret's drive and mind, he'd be #1 on my list... or at least would have a shot.

 

 

Spot on, both of you.

 

 

If it was "Most Talented Ever" and you had to point to their careers to show it, Owen's top 10. I think that that's a steady point that people make. He wasn't an underachiever, but he could seem like one because of WWF constraints/a seeming non-career away from WWF & NJ. His match with Danny Boy Collins is a good example of him not seeming like an underachiever, I think.

[pol]

Acting like shoot style is the only pro wrestling that attempted to convince its viewers it was real seems disingenuous.

 

To take the opposite tack, I'm pretty sure most shoot style fans knew it was a work anyway.

[El-P]

To take the opposite tack, I'm pretty sure most shoot style fans knew it was a work anyway.

 

You mean those goofy-ass Fujiwara headbutts weren't looking real enough ?

[Death From Above]

Never stopped UWF-i from hyping themselves as "real pro wrestling". I wish Tabe's website from eons past with the old VHS art was around.

[Goodear]

That's an oversimplification if I've ever seen one. Internal consistency of pro wrestling is extremely questionable, even within specific styles in a specific time and changes drastically depending on time, location, promotion etc. I mean you've gone on record stating you don't really love wrestling outside of the US so I see it more as an issue of you being willing to accept non "The Thing vs The Hulk" takes on pro wrestling than an issue in styles that do that themselves.

 

Someone actually listened to me! I'm excited! This is not sarcasm. I'm honestly excited.

 

Sure it could be my problem, I can only attempt to articulate what that problem is because I'm working on speaking up more. I'm not just going "Mexicans! BLECH!" when I try to watch lucha because that seems exceptionally short sited and OMG so racist. I'm trying to tell you what my issues are and why they exist. I'm not trying to tell you that you should stop liking it. There are obviously people who love shoot stuff since they seem to think their guys are getting underrated, I just figured I would throw in from the other side of "I didn't rank him" since the conversation was somewhat one sided.

[Goodear]

Is it telling that all of Dundee's recommended matches are against Lawler?

[InYourCase]

Bob Sapp vs Minotauro Nogueira would be one of the best wrestling matches ever.

I've never agreed more with something or someone on PWO.

[Grimmas]

Is it telling that all of Dundee's recommended matches are against Lawler?

It's not.. I'm just lazy. Dundee has plenty of other great stuff.

[JKWebb]

Bill Dundee... My highest to drop thus far! What a great and consistent TV performer. Some of the greatest matches of all-time vs Lawler. He was great as a face, heel, and tag wrestler. He was such a fun promo, and even though he was a very small guy, you never really noticed that because he brought the big fight. He packed a sweet punch too. He always stands out wherever he pops up. Bill Dundee was truly a great wrestler.

[Goodear]

Lazy Canadian out drinking maple syrup and apologizing to people.

[goc]

Dundee has a lot of good stuff outside of the Lawler matches, even if those are clearly the best matches of his career. The scaffold match with Koko is awesome and he had some really great tag matches. The partner he is most associated with is Lawler but he and Dutch Mantell had some really good matches with The Fantastics that are on the DVDVR set and NWAClassics.

[GOTNW]

 

Sure it could be my problem, I can only attempt to articulate what that problem is because I'm working on speaking up more. I'm not just going "Mexicans! BLECH!" when I try to watch lucha because that seems exceptionally short sited and OMG so racist. I'm trying to tell you what my issues are and why they exist. I'm not trying to tell you that you should stop liking it. There are obviously people who love shoot stuff since they seem to think their guys are getting underrated, I just figured I would throw in from the other side of "I didn't rank him" since the conversation was somewhat one sided.

And that's ok. Maybe knowing the context and the natural development of the style that lead to its final form would change your views on it. I don't think it would, but maybe you'd be able to phrase your disgruntlement with it better. But then again you probably wouldn't care for the style's predecessors as well.

[Grimmas]

Yeah, all I did was pick the top three ranked matches off the Memphis set.

If you folks spent the time to fill out the google forum all the way (including recs) then I wouldn't have to do that extra work. So, in essence, it's you all that are lazy!!