Reactions to the List: 50-26

[soup23]

Had Akiyama at 27 and Taue at 26 on ballot. Awesome.

[InYourCase]

Fucking mainstream Japanese bias moved him up 23 spots from 2006.

I really hope this is just a lame attempt at comedy.

[Matt D]

And on the resume-building front, Casas & Santo are polar opposites since 2006.

I think Casas and Santo are wildly different wrestlers even though, at one point, they may have been very similar foils.

[Childs]

I mean I can *see* an argument for Taue, I just obviously don't agree with it. And I see that argument as being heavily skewed to highlight the things he excelled that. If you do the same in Akiyama's favour it's a no contest.

 

Sure, you could argue Kawada-Taue was the greatest tag ever. And the reasoning for that is that 90s All Japan had the best tag team wrestking ever and they were together for the longest. I don't even think that's a very important point here, as the discussion is about Taue specifically and not Holy Demon Army.

 

I could point to at least three different tag teams with Akiyama in them I thought were legitimately great tag teams where he was often the best performer. I don't really buy Taue being a.better tag team wrestler than Akiyama. Again you would have to ignore consistency and heavily favour peak and even then I'm not so sure I'd agree with it. Taue peaked at a time when better wrestlers than the one Akiyama worked alongside in his prime peaked. And EVEN THEN I'm not convinced. Akiyama is in the tag picture from 1996 onwards. Taue is good from 1990 but achieves greatness in 1995. Taue still has great stuff in 2006-true-but it is more sporadic and can't even begin to compare to what Akiyama was doing at the same time. For Taue the window of good wrestling can be 1990-2006 but in that you have both the question of how good he was before 1995 and how consistent his output was in NOAH. Akiyama's window of good wrestling is 1992-now. He has a small slump around 2008-2009 or so but compared to Taue I'm not sure it's even worth mentioning. You could argue Akiyama was in a top 5 All Japan 90s match as well. I know Akiyama-Kobashi 98 is my #1 and Akiyama-Misawa 2/27 would be a strong contender as well (pre-split counts). I mean you can always make a case for wrestler x over wrestler y but for people that truly dive into the stuff and appreciate them both (hint-I do) I don't think it's close.

I've truly dived into the stuff and appreciate them both, and I had Taue two spots higher. I could see it the other way. Obviously, lots of people had them close. So it just seems like an odd one on which to take an absolutist stance.

[anarchistxx]

William Regal finishing ahead of Akiyama feels really off. Can't even make the longevity/consistency debate since Jun has cemented his claim over the last decade massively and has excelled in different phases of his character.

 

Don't think it is a stretch to say that Akiyama has probably been involved in five times more truly great matches in his career. For a long time the premier Regal match was said to be the Pillman Memorial classic with Benoit, and Akiyama probably has ten better matches than that in the 90s alone. Feel like to make it this high you should be churning out classic matches on a regular basis, and I don't think William Regal has ever done that. Sort of a better version of Finlay, great at stiff, fun television matches with neat little touches.

 

Akiyama was helped by wrestling some amazing talent and getting to go long and epic in the way Regal never got to, but still don't think the placings make sense. Taue seems high as well, he has solo gems but a good proportion of his best stuff is in tags where he is the weakest worker.

[Matt D]

William Regal finishing ahead of Akiyama feels really off. Can't even make the longevity/consistency debate since Jun has cemented his claim over the last decade massively and has excelled in different phases of his character. Don't think it is a stretch Akiyama has probably been involved in five times more truly great matches in his career. For a long time the premier Regal match was said to be the Pillman Memorial classic with Benoit, and Akiyama probably has ten better matches than that in the 90s alone.

 

He was helped by wrestling some amazing talent and getting to go long and epic in the way Regal never got to, but still don't think the placings make sense. Taue seems high as well, his solo work is solid but almost all his best stuff is in tags where he is the weakest worker.

If Akiyama was in those tags instead of Taue, would you think he was the weakest worker? (I know some people wouldn't, but you kind of get the point for why that argument is a little silly, right?)

[anarchistxx]

 

William Regal finishing ahead of Akiyama feels really off. Can't even make the longevity/consistency debate since Jun has cemented his claim over the last decade massively and has excelled in different phases of his character. Don't think it is a stretch Akiyama has probably been involved in five times more truly great matches in his career. For a long time the premier Regal match was said to be the Pillman Memorial classic with Benoit, and Akiyama probably has ten better matches than that in the 90s alone.

 

He was helped by wrestling some amazing talent and getting to go long and epic in the way Regal never got to, but still don't think the placings make sense. Taue seems high as well, his solo work is solid but almost all his best stuff is in tags where he is the weakest worker.

If Akiyama was in those tags instead of Taue, would you think he was the weakest worker? (I know some people wouldn't, but you kind of get the point for why that argument is a little silly, right?)

 

 

Probably, but Akiyama has a far, far stronger case as a solo performer, so that argument is mostly irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, Taue wasn't being carried in those matches and is a fantastic wrestler, but it also helped massively he was working tags with some of the best in history.

[GOTNW]

I think what irks me the most about Akiyama is that he posseses such a wide array of skills and can just do so many different things that Taue just can't. And again....you like Taue better, fine. You like his big match formula, he's in the best matches for you....I get it. What's frusrating to me is that Akiyama really is a Matt D candidate where you have to get the whole picture to fully appreciate it and I almost insany doubt whethet someone's done the legwork. In terms of structuring matches, delivering nuanced performances, carrying lesser talent etc. I think Akiyama is in another level.

[fxnj]

Taue over Akiyama actually seems to be a minority opinion among people who ranked them both since Akiyama had a higher average vote. I'd be more interested in hearing what the fuck those 7 people who ranked Taue but not Akiyama were thinking.

[Bierschwale]

William Regal finishing ahead of Akiyama feels really off. Can't even make the longevity/consistency debate since Jun has cemented his claim over the last decade massively and has excelled in different phases of his character.

 

We've talked about how Jun's second run AJPW stuff might not benefit him at all with most voters. Compare that to Regal, whose best match of the '90s is ABOUT as good as Akiyama's best singles match of the '90s and had gone completely dark for years (SuperBrawl IV). I'd have Akiyama over Regal but there's solid reasoning for the inverse. Jun would have been my nonexistent #13-#16 and Regal my #22-#25.

[GOTNW]

A point I broughr up earlier is that Akiyama has plenty of great tag matches with not so strong coworkers. I don't buy it for a second Taue could have the matches Akiyama did working with Omori/Miyahara/Shiozaki, Suwama/Doering/Shiozaki, Shiozaki/Omori/Manabu Soya etc.

[Jimmy Redman]

Taue had a great match with Marufuji. Let's not pretend he couldn't make his own chicken salad.

[Matt D]

I've liked all the Akiyama I've watched. I just thought that particular argument wasn't super strong. Other arguments are stronger.

[GOTNW]

Taue had a great match with Marufuji. Let's not pretend he couldn't make his own chicken salad.

I don't care how much shit I have to eat for this Marufuji was really good in 2006. He had neat matches vs. Akiyama, Kobashi, KENTA and Misawa in that year as well and had had pimped stuff for years by that point. Not convinced Taue was better than Akitoshi Saito at working against Marufuji.

[pol]

A point I broughr up earlier is that Akiyama has plenty of great tag matches with not so strong coworkers. I don't buy it for a second Taue could have the matches Akiyama did working with Omori/Miyahara/Shiozaki, Suwama/Doering/Shiozaki, Shiozaki/Omori/Manabu Soya etc.

 

You can watch pretty much any random ass tag with Akiyama and it will be good almost regardless of the other people in it (maybe not if those other people are 2016 Dory or Fuchi). Like, just from the past month I can throw out Akiyama/Gurukun Mask vs. Ultimo Dragon/Yohei Nakajima (3/21/16) and Zeus/SUSHI/Yohei Nakajima vs. Akiyama/Ultimo Dragon/Yuma Aoyagi (4/22/16)

[andrew79]

I had Taue at fourteen, Akiyama at fifteen, and switched them several times before submitting my ballot so I'm not going to strongly argue that Taue's the better.

 

I gave him the nod because of the 95 CC final and TC matches. They're two of my favourite matches of all time and I don't believe Akiyama has a match at their level.

[GOTNW]

 

Taue had a great match with Marufuji. Let's not pretend he couldn't make his own chicken salad.

I don't care how much shit I have to eat for this Marufuji was really good in 2006. He had neat matches vs. Akiyama, Kobashi, KENTA and Misawa in that year as well and had had pimped stuff for years by that point. Not convinced Taue was better than Akitoshi Saito at working against Marufuji.

Akiyama also had like three other really good matches vs. Marufuji as well fwiw

[GOTNW]

I remember Taue-Nagata being used as an example of a carry job. That seems pretty harsh in hindsight, even if it was largely Taue inserting Nagata into his big match formula. Still that a guy like Nagata is the caliber of talent Taue was given that much credit for having a great match against is telling. Of course Akiyama did well against Nagata as well, producing three strong singles matches.

[JRGoldman]

There are at least 2 #2 votes for Casas.

 

I think Casas also has at least 3 #1 votes.

[RyanClingman]

I'm incredibly surprised that Ultimo Dragon hasn't ranked yet. I expected him to drop significantly this time around.

[Beast]

I'm incredibly surprised that Ultimo Dragon hasn't ranked yet. I expected him to drop significantly this time around.

 

He did, 169.

[Quentin Skinner]

I know Sam from WDKW said he had Casas at number 1

[Superstar Sleeze]

BRET AND AUSTIN FINISHED OVER TAUE & AKIYAMA!?!?!? What the fuck!

I love Stone Cold! He is hilarious. Besides Wargames and maybe maybe SuperBrawl II point me to these all time Stunning Steve matches! He is a committed midcard heel that's it. I say this as someone who loves the Bash at the Beach 94 match that everyone shits on. The rest of his 94 is boooooorrrrring. That's it. Dustin Havoc '91 very good. Hollywood Blonds very good. These are very good years with someone who understood basic psychology executed. Look no one takes basic psychology for granted because hell not a lot of wrestlers can do that. But that's NOT top 25 material.

 

People pretend his 96 something great. It is better than expected Savio Vega matches, a decent match with Mero then does shit until the Bret match. 2/3s of his 97 is awesome and 2001 is great. I had him at 50 and some of that was sentimental because of the podcast. How the fuck does someone with two years of greatness get in top 25??? That's absurd!

[WingedEagle]

Sentimental votes for favorites before people were dissecting things 24/7 online? Who knows. Austin would likely laugh at coming in this high and maybe even tell people they need to watch more wrestling. Podcast gold!

 

Always wondered how people would view Bret's career absent Montreal. What if he just went to Turner without that incredible goodwill?

[Superstar Sleeze]

Exactly, there is no way Austin thinks he is in top 25 wrestlers of all time. I almost want to send him an email to read out loud on his show just so he can say just what WingedEagle said "You all need to watch more wrestling".