Reactions to the List: 50-26

[pol]

I'm more concerned that the way CMLL books Hechicero is going to prevent him making the list in 10 years than that he wasn't nominated this go around

[Dylan Waco]

 

 

 

People pointing to individual examples of a luchador placing over a US favorite to show how 'not mainstream' the list is is getting pretty tedious. For what it's worth I think it's less a matter of "mainstream" and more of both US workers and workers that made their case in the last 10 years over-indexing (thanks Parv).

 

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

 

Heck, of all of the wrestlers yet to be listed, I think there's only 5 (maybe 6) where you can argue their active work since 2006 helps their case. Everybody else has not been active or their work since has almost no bearing (IMO) of their case for GWE.

 

Akiyama, Bryan, Casas, Regal, Rey... Misawa's last run doesn't change him in where he is. Liger, just a little?

 

Yeah, it's a small group.

 

 

I would say including Akiyama in this group is true, but maybe in a different way than the others. For some post-06 Akiyama is huge to his case, but I get the distinct feeling that for many others it's not even on the radar at all. I'm less certain about that with the others.

[anarchistxx]

William Regal finishing so high is somewhat bemusing. I imagine he benefited from a consensus. Remarkably consistent career, Can't imagine anyone going all in for him as their absolute favorite of all time though.

 

Did Katsuhiko Nakajima place yet? I must have missed him, no way he is this high surely.

[Matt D]

I'm more concerned that the way CMLL books Hechicero is going to prevent him making the list in 10 years than that he wasn't nominated this go around

 

He gets the indies at least. I am praying to the wrestling gods that Casas vs Hech from last night drops soon.

[Bierschwale]

I really hate Garza going that low. REALLY hate it.

[pol]

 

To put it another way, I think potentially niche US candidates like Buddy were clearly done less dirty due to being niche than luchadors, women or shoot-style workers. Stompers' post supports this, although obviously that's just one guy. Would be interesting to see if it's true of others too.

 

I think from the available evidence of people who have talked about things publicly we know that a lot of people are just generally down on lucha, Joshi, and shoot-style. WOS is a separate bag, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of people omitting certain folks from the other categories has as much to do with not liking those styles as it does with not watching any of it all because they never got to any of it.

 

 

Again a fair (if depressing) point. As much as I would like people to work to overcome their style biases, I know that it took me hours upon hours of subjecting myself to stuff I wasn't really into until lucha and shoot style finally clicked for me, and it would be unfair to expect others to do the same. Wrestling is supposed to be fun after all, or so they tell us.

 

And I don't want to imply that the only reason someone could possibly not like the stuff is because they don't get it; you can get it just fine and still not like it, although I do think some people are too quick to jump to "this is bad" rather than "I don't understand this".

[JRGoldman]

I'd like to just point out that the guy who is most vocally decrying the list for being mainstream had a list that featured Raven but not any luchador ever.

[Matt D]

I really hate Garza going that low. REALLY hate it.

Maybe if someone other than me voted for him? I even made a case for him too.

 

(I know though. I hate that he went so low. At his best, he's just as charismatic as someone like Eddy).

[jamesie_2015]

Did Katsuhiko Nakajima place yet? I must have missed him, no way he is this high surely.

397.

[Quentin Skinner]

Regal doesn't have a lot of great post-2006 stuff, but the fact that he had 4 remarkable matches (maybe even low end match of the decade contenders) against newer guys in a developmental territory is insanely impressive. I'm not sure how many people actually accounted for his WWECW stuff or his King Of The Ring run.

[Bierschwale]

He's one of my ten or twenty laments on not getting in a ballot. I'm absolutely with you on the idea that he could have been all-world with different circumstances, Matt.

[van_Fair]

While I am not happy that Shawn ended up this high on the list the fact that Cena ranks ahead of him makes me incredibly happy. Also Bobby Eaton ranking higher than Ricky Morton fills the Midnight Express mark in me with joy.

[cad]

I'm more concerned that the way CMLL books Hechicero is going to prevent him making the list in 10 years than that he wasn't nominated this go around

He was nominated. He just got skunked, along with the guys listed with him.

[funkdoc]

 

 

 

Jmare, that's a good point. i guess i shouldn't have said "anonymous", more like "non-PWO regulars".

 

people bring up AJ Styles in the top 40 but i think when people look at this list even a couple years from now, the poor ranking of the women will be far and away the most embarrassing part. Brock in the top 50 will also be up there - guys like Hogan & Dusty are more understandable when you realize not everyone was voting just on in-ring work, but Brock doesn't have anywhere near their track record as a draw.

 

i've been pleasantly surprised with the list aside from those issues, mind you!

 

I doubt that, Joshi is a pretty dead style and its prime is even further in the rear view mirror, I can't imagine there will be some sort of Joshi review, unless its something like LLPW which wasn't beaten to death by guys in the 90.

 

 

you're missing on a couple larger points here:

 

1. WWE taking women's wrestling seriously. if they stick with it, you're going to see more people take an interest in what came before it. it's also going to produce a generation of new female hardcore fans.

 

2. feminism is eventually going to become a real factor in our circle, like it's already doing with basically every other nerd fandom. there will be re-evaluations of the joshi style and the circumstances that developed it, and there will be more people refusing to rank sexual predators on principle. knowing how wrestling is, it'll probably be like 5 years from now...but it *will* happen eventually.

 

 

1. May be true. I hope it's true, even though I sort of hate the top-down model of "join the power structure to beat the power structure!" of change that such a thing implies.

 

2. Is already happening, but it's had little effect on how people think or talk about the Joshi of the past up until this point. To be perfectly frank the rape pornish elements of something like Chiggy v. Dump is something that isn't likely to play with many feminist either, and that's something that shouldn't be undersold. Someone like Kudo is rated even by many of the predominantly male critics of the Joshi style, but the last time I tried to watch a Kudo death match in the presence of a self-identified feminist woman it was met with total disgust, and a long discussion about what the existence of such a match said about women in wrestling and male wrestling fans (note that this was maybe two months ago).

 

I understand what you are saying, but your point seems heavily dependent on the idea that feminism is a monolith and that feminism is a sort of "static" position that is fully fleshed out, rather than a constantly evolving egalitarian impulse that adjusts to situational realities.

 

A far more interesting thing to think about is whether or not feminism (or perhaps more accurately feminists) will shape or influence the depiction and characterization of wrestling talent (male and female) in the years ahead in significant ways. Thinking along these lines I actually think it is far more likely that current female performers on all scales and in all locations (Hojo, Asuka, Bayley, Banks, Lovelace, Athena, et) will receive measurable support in 2026, than it is that many of the old Joshi performers will have their profiles resurrected. I say this in part because I think Joshi may be subject to feminist critique in certain cases (see Kudo, Chiggy/Dump, et.) and partially because social movements tend to exalt those who are presumed to have emerged from within them at the expense of those who are seen as predecessors of sorts who may not have been ideal representatives for one reason or another.

 

 

this is really good stuff, i just dashed out that post real quickly because i'm at work. =P

 

may be able to give some more nuanced thoughts tonight. for now i'll just say that i'm thinking of what you could call "Silicon Valley Feminism", the sort you see most often on Twitter and such. that's what really appears to be catching on with younger generations.

[El Boricua]

 

 

 

People pointing to individual examples of a luchador placing over a US favorite to show how 'not mainstream' the list is is getting pretty tedious. For what it's worth I think it's less a matter of "mainstream" and more of both US workers and workers that made their case in the last 10 years over-indexing (thanks Parv).

 

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

 

Heck, of all of the wrestlers yet to be listed, I think there's only 5 (maybe 6) where you can argue their active work since 2006 helps their case. Everybody else has not been active or their work since has almost no bearing (IMO) of their case for GWE.

 

Akiyama, Bryan, Casas, Regal, Rey... Misawa's last run doesn't change him in where he is. Liger, just a little?

 

Yeah, it's a small group.

 

 

Those are the exact 5 I was thinking of, with Liger being the maybe.

[bestintheworld3589]

Hey I just wanted to let everyone know that in addition to Woof's master list I'm currently working on putting the entire list in alphabetical order, this way if someone wants to know where a certain person ranked they can find it somewhat easier by just going to that person's letter.

[JRGoldman]

I know we had previously talked about other lists that may be interesting to look at, and I would love to see two:

 

- A list ranked purely by number of ballots (which I think will give a more concise picture of representation)

- What the top 100 would look like with just everyone's top 10s. Like the GWE: Sight & Sound edition. I think that would be sort of a cool thing.

[cowboy hats]

 

 

He usually delivers in his big matches

 

Big Match John!!

[MikeF]

Eaton and Morton wrestled on WCW Main Event on 8/4/91.

[Cox]

Eaton and Morton wrestled on WCW Main Event on 8/4/91.

And apparently it even made the 1991 Yearbook, which is consider buying just to see this match if I wasn't getting married in 2 months:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/18652-richard-morton-vs-bobby-eaton-wcw-main-event-080491/

[JDerbyshire]

I know we had previously talked about other lists that may be interesting to look at, and I would love to see two:

 

- A list ranked purely by number of ballots (which I think will give a more concise picture of representation)

- What the top 100 would look like with just everyone's top 10s. Like the GWE: Sight & Sound edition. I think that would be sort of a cool thing.

 

Based on 100-28th with a slapdash system of:

 

5pts for 1st

3pts for 2nd

2pts for 3rd

1pt for top 10

 

the current top 10 would be:

 

1 - Shawn Michaels - 41pts

2 - El Hijo del Santo - 33pts

3 - El Satanico - 29pts

4 - Yoshiaki Fujiwara - 25pts

5 - Buddy Rose - 17pts

6 - Volk Han - 16pts

= - Chris Benoit - 16pts

8 - Harley Race - 13pts

9 - Curt Hennig - 11pts

10 - Dynamite Kid - 10pts

= - Kiyoshi Tamura - 10pts

= - John Cena - 10pts

[stunning_grover]

34. Chris Benoit

I have him at #56. Don't care much for his WWE work though.

33. Ricky Morton

I have him at #52. I probably should have had him in my top 50.

32. Dustin Rhodes

He's in my top 150. I enjoy his early '90s work in WCW and his first run as Goldust in WWF in late '95/early '96 was very good.

31. Shawn Michaels

I have him at #87. I have placed him significantly lower than I did in 2006 and ironically he finished higher in the overall rankings this time.

30. John Cena

Didn't rank him.

29. El Hijo del Santo

I have him at #42. He's great and he participated in great matches, but there are seven Mexican wrestlers I ranked higher.

28. Bobby Eaton

He's my #45. It's great to see he got on 128 ballots. While nobody apparently feels he's a top 10 worker, most seem to agree he's a top 50 worker and that got him a nice well-deserved placement on the overall list.

5 days to go...

75 wrestlers that are in my top 100 have appeared in the final results so far...

25 wrestlers of my top 100 haven't appeared in the final results yet... (that means 2 of the 27 wrestlers still to come are not on my list)

My list [overall ranking in brackets]

...

#8 Masa Fuchi [#111] (high vote: #8)

#9 Sangre Chicana [#95] (high vote: #9)

#10 Bull Nakano [#61]

#11 Dick Murdoch [#53]

#12 Dick Togo [#71] (high vote: #12)

#13 Satanico [#37]

#14 Chigusa Nagayo [#110]

#15 Fuerza Guerrera [#155] (high vote: #15)

#16 Giant Baba [#63]

...

#18 Manami Toyota [#89]

...

#23 Buddy Rose [#36]

#24 Dynamite Kid [#78]

#25 Harley Race [#45]

#26 Rick Martel [#43]

#27 L.A. Park [#96]

#28 Mr. Gannosuke [#277] (high vote: #28)

...

#30 Akira Hokuto [#52]

#31 Mayumi Ozaki [#133]

#32 Greg Valentine [#54]

#33 El Dandy [#35]

...

#36 Jaguar Yokota [#114]

#37 Aja Kong [#49]

#38 Yoshiaki Fujiwara [#40]

#39 Owen Hart [#58]

...

#41 La Fiera [#164]

#42 El Hijo del Santo [#29]

#43 Ted DiBiase [#42]

..

#45 Bobby Eaton [#28]

...

#48 El Samurai [#212] (high vote: #48)

#49 Kyoko Inoue [#217]

#50 Curt Hennig [#55]

#51 Sgt. Slaughter [#64]

#52 Ricky Morton [#33]

#53 Tsuyoshi Kikuchi [#148]

#54 Atlantis [#74]

#55 Great Sasuke [#116]

#56 Chris Benoit [#34]

#57 Yumi Ikeshita [#384]

...

#59 Brian Pillman [#72]

#60 TAKA Michinoku [#180]

...

#62 Shinobu Kandori [#146]

#63 Shinjiro Ohtani [#65]

#64 Steve Williams [#82]

#65 Dynamite Kansai [#125]

#66 Dan Kroffat [#254]

#67 Tully Blanchard [#44]

...

#69 Perro Aguayo [#140]

#70 Tito Santana [#80]

#71 Bison Kimura [#420]

#72 Devil Masami [#135]

#73 Cuty Suzuki [#385]

#74 Kerry Von Erich [#98]

#75 Dennis Condrey [#199]

#76 Pirata Morgan [#117]

#77 Super Astro [#283]

#78 Leo Burke [#296]

#79 Jinsei Shinzaki [#400]

#80 Hulk Hogan [#75]

...

#82 Masato Tanaka [#175]

#83 Javier Cruz [#502] (high vote/only vote: #83)

#84 Mick Foley [#38]

#85 Psicosis [#183]

...

#87 Shawn Michaels [#31]

#88 Marty Jannetty [#272]

#89 Espectrito [#370]

#90 Masa Saito [#160]

#91 Sabu [#149]

#92 Scott Steiner [#162]

#93 Jacques Rougeau [#339]

#94 Andre the Giant [#51]

#95 Atsushi Onita [#89]

#96 Carlos Colon [#103]

#97 Roddy Piper [#83]

#98 Stan Lane [#260]

#99 Big Boss Man [#171]

#100 Ron Starr [#403]

[elliott]

I know we had previously talked about other lists that may be interesting to look at, and I would love to see two:

 

- A list ranked purely by number of ballots (which I think will give a more concise picture of representation)

- What the top 100 would look like with just everyone's top 10s. Like the GWE: Sight & Sound edition. I think that would be sort of a cool thing.

 

Agree with those.

 

I'd also like to see a list where just the average rank is used.

[Dylan Waco]

Bret had 1/3 the career of Akiyama at best, but he did have cool sunglasses

[Childs]

Bret had 1/3 the career of Akiyama at best, but he did have cool sunglasses

 

Savage too, even though he was way cooler than Bret.