Reactions to the List: 50-26

[Manatee]

 

Brock may be the worst guy in the 100. I think his first run is probably more overrated than his second at this point.

Harley Race hasn't appeared yet.

 

Grimmas I'd be curious to hear you give your reasons for hating Harley so much. In his thread your points were basically 1) he does lots of moves 2) he doesn't sell 3) one time he did a piledriver on the floor to S.D. Jones. Does that sum it up or is there more?

[Dylan Waco]

Punk was the guy who benefited most to me by head-to-head comparisons. I'm not entirely sure if I could do it again that I'd have him one spot above Valentine, but he'd probably have been my 49 as when I look at him next to those around him he just feels better to me. Long career, with multiple epic feuds in an age where NO ONE had epic feuds, highest of high end matches, got the most out of being a worst athlete than me, et. Wish he'd rated over Bret Hart.

[goc]

I kind of didn't want to rank Punk because of how overboard his biggest fans would always go in praising him but I couldn't leave him off when he had an all time great WWE feud with Jeff Hardy and another really great one with Rey. Then you add the Cena matches on to that and a surprisingly good match with Brock Lesnar. I say surprisingly good because I just didn't think Punk had the offense to be credible against Lesnar but he pulled it off. I thought the same about Ambrose and his weak offense and he didn't pull it off.

[Grimmas]

 

 

Brock may be the worst guy in the 100. I think his first run is probably more overrated than his second at this point.

Harley Race hasn't appeared yet.

 

Grimmas I'd be curious to hear you give your reasons for hating Harley so much. In his thread your points were basically 1) he does lots of moves 2) he doesn't sell 3) one time he did a piledriver on the floor to S.D. Jones. Does that sum it up or is there more?

 

I have never once watched a Harley match and thought Harley was great. Harley does a lot of big moves and throws a lot of offense which doesn't seem to mean much. He just seems like a go who was all action and no substance.

 

I've watched a bunch of his "classics" and I think they are only classics because he wrestles like a wrestler from the 90s/2000s but in the 70s.

 

I just don't see him as great, nor seen any of his matches as great.

[Manatee]

Coming into the project, I was pretty sure I was going to rank Harley Race in my top 100. I had mostly only ever seen him during his WWF run but I loved his bumping and I'm a huge mark for big bumps so I knew he would rank somewhere. Then I started digging into his 70's and 80's and he's a much more serious wrestler in the NWA while still taking big bumps but not the cartoonish type of bumps he was taking in WWF. I watched a good 50+ matches of his for this project and I didn't think a single one of them was bad.

Ric Flair would probably have been my default #1 coming into the project. I still had Flair in my top 5 but the difference between Harley and Flair that made me go with Harley as my #1 was presentation. Coming into a Ric Flair match you know you are about to see a big performance while I think Harley had a more realistic presentation. They are both great but those are the types of little things that make the difference when you are talking about wrestlers of this caliber.

I think a lot of the criticisms of Harley are a bit overblown. Of course Harley sells, I could show you clips from dozens of matches of him doing a tremendous job of selling. I did catch him coming out of a hold and not clutching at his leg or limping or whatever a few times. I would ask anyone who holds this sort of thing against Harley to the point where they left him off their list entirely, did you hold it against Stan Hansen? I saw Stan do it just as much in his matches. People also criticize Harley as just being a bomb thrower. I don't actually see a problem with throwing bombs and it's simply untrue to say that is all he ever did. Harley would work a hold as well as anyone, not just sitting there with a guy in a front face lock but actually working the hold.

All that said, I think 45 is a pretty good spot for him all things considered.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Tully had a great career, but if someone voted for him based solely on the I Quit match, I'd be fine with that.

[Dylan Waco]

Glad Tully is finally off the board. I've never been as high on him as others, but even allowing for my status as an outlier on him, I think it's really bizarre to see him above guys like Valentine and Dundee. I guess he had 6 or 7 years of being really good, and maybe some people would argue he was really great during that entire run, I struggle to see any case for him as a top 50 guy. I find Brock's ranking more ridiculous, but I do understand it in the abstract. I don't really understand Tully this high.

[goc]

The great thing about Tully is that we are getting stuff on NWAClassics that shows that his peak was longer than anyone was really giving him credit for. Most of the existing Southwest footage that was out there wasn't really adding to his case but the footage that has popped up from Houston has shown he was just as good in Texas in the early 80s as he was when he went to Crockett.

[Matt D]

Tully's looked really good in Houston this week so far. (goc in before me)

[JKWebb]

I'm not sure if I would still be watching wrestling if it weren't for CM Punk. At a very busy time in my life, he had me tuning in. I saw him, with one promo, bring two or three of my friends back into getting into the business... They had dropped off for years, but we're totally invested in him. They still watch now. Just one of those guys you believed everything he said. Great on the mic, great in the ring, a storyteller, a character... He totally belongs in the top 50 for me, and I would've loved to have seen him higher.

[pol]

All this talk about how much impact the footage explosion did or didn't have seems odd to me, when the biggest factor at play seems to be the decision to push for a higher quantity of votes rather than a base of voters that mostly participated in the process. Whether that was a good idea or not is a total value judgement, but I think it's pretty clear that it influenced the results heavily. You have to remember that the footage explosion means less and less the further away you get from this little circle.

[El-P]

Yeah, Tully… Not sure he warranted that #65 slot from me, really.

[Danish Dynamite]

I don't understand this conservative list complaint. What, do you want a Dragon Gate guy in the top 10? Weren't people voting for the GWE, not to make the most unpredictable list possible?

 

Totally agree with this! I like the fun lists with names I'd never even consider for a top 500. But what awards do we win by the final list being the most unpredictable or surprising list? Who are we trying to be cool for? That's part of why I love the reveal of all the rankings all the way down to the guys scoring 1 point. That's where we can debate and discover the guys of whom we only have three handheld matches from a barn in Tijuana. I love that they are being brought up and fought for. I love Will's podcasts with guys with the more surprising ballots. Totally! ... But with all the debate, talk, viewing of tons of wrestling, podcasts etc. etc. that comes with this board and thus the GWE vote, I'd almost find it a little bit of a waste of time if we couldn't to a certain extent predict most of the names in the top 100.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

CM Punk.....one of the few wrestlers who piqued my interest enough to actually watch Raw now and then. That in itself makes him worthy of the top 50.

 

Ditto. Loved the character. So I had him at #36, since I really loved some matches I've seen. Whereas he's too high or too low is something I'll only know once I'll have to revisit his career as a whole. One of the 00's guy that had *it*.

 

 

Totally agree :-) ... I'm definetely not an easy sell on post 2000-WWE... John Cena impresses me. Other than that it's almost only the strong indy guys like Punk and Bryan who've made me watch. And like you, I love the Punk character, I have him at #35, and I have no clear idea of whether or not he'll go up or drop down the list for me when we're a few years down the line, revisit his stuff and have more perspective.

[Parties]

110 ballots for Brock and 109 for Tully are the best argument yet for "Tons of voters/lurkers either didn't read the nomination threads or didn't find their arguments convincing".

[Danish Dynamite]

All this talk about how much impact the footage explosion did or didn't have seems odd to me, when the biggest factor at play seems to be the decision to push for a higher quantity of votes rather than a base of voters that mostly participated in the process. Whether that was a good idea or not is a total value judgement, but I think it's pretty clear that it influenced the results heavily. You have to remember that the footage explosion means less and less the further away you get from this little circle.

 

Completely valid point. On one hand you can always steer a vote closer to your own taste by eliminating people you know value different things. On the other hand this isn't about democracy, but about finding out what people who've actually taken some serious time to watch tons of footage and debate it would rank. But what should have made people qualified to vote then? Membership of the board? A minimum of 1000 posts (which neither you nor I have yet)? X number of match reviews written? I'm not asking to be snarky, I really am not decided myself. But my gut reaction from listening to the podcasts on people's top 100 tells me that a list compiled only by the hosts of those shows acutally wouldn't be that much different from what we end up having. A little, sure. But actually not radically. Sure, Shawn might be a little lower (but definetely still among the final 100). Angle would be nowhere near the 100 I think. And joshi in particular would be better represented (but possibly not as much as we think). I get people's reactions to the final list, I really do. But honestly, it's much, much more "serious" than I feared it would be, when the vote was opened up to everyone. I have a friend who strongly considered voting. I said, great, do it. Then I explained the amount of time we had all spent on it, and what footage I had seen to feel I could vote. He got a blank stare and said that he'd probably have 0 Japanese guys, 0 women, 0 lucha (except the Rey's and Eddie's he knows from WCW and WWE), 0 WoS, and too few guys from the territories. He's a 100% North American, big promotions 1985-2016 guy. I said "the board" welcomes all voters... He didn't vote...

[fxnj]

I don't see how anyone who put serious work into this project could see these results as anything but a massive disappointment. 2 years of discussion and watching shitloads from all over the world and it's pretty much a generic mainstream US list with a few token obscure guys and big name puro guys. I'd argue it's actually it's actually a step back from the the 2006 since the small victories in BattlArts and WOS guys ranking is pretty much negated by US guys getting rated way too high and women nearly getting shut out.

[Grimmas]

I don't see how anyone who put serious work into this project could see these results as anything but a massive disappointment. 2 years of discussion and watching shitloads from all over the world and it's pretty much a generic mainstream US list with a few token obscure guys and big name puro guys. I'd argue it's actually it's actually a step back from the the 2006 since the small victories in BattlArts and WOS guys ranking is pretty much negated by US guys getting rated way too high and women nearly getting shut out.

Completely disagreed. No way the average fan votes this high for Valentine, Garvin, Martel, Buddy Rose, El Dandy, etc.. How is Lawler still alive?

 

Tamura made top 100. Come on... just because Brock made the list or some shit. I participated a ton and had Brock and Punk on my list too.

[The Thread Killer]

 

I have to say that all women competitors being exalted by #49 is pretty disappointing. I am not trying to make this into a social justice list but that does seem striking to me.

You are right, it is striking, and probably not quite right.

 

I personally didn't help by not voting for any women. I decided early in the process that I couldn't because I'm just not familiar enough with the style. I have tried watching Joshi several times, and although I've been impressed by the work, I've always found watching women beating each other in that manner a bit unsettling. For that reason I've just never stuck with it.

 

I wonder how many people feel the same way as me, that they recognised that some women 'should' be on their list just didn't feel they had enough knowledge of the genre to rate them fairly.

 

 

I agree with this sentiment. I had no women on my ballot. I have tried to watch Joshi several times over the years, and I have never really cared for it, honestly. In my case, it's not that I find it unsettling that it's women beating on each other, but for whatever reason it just doesn't draw me in, or connect with me. I can watch it and recognize the skill of the participants, but I have just never had any desire to follow Joshi or put any effort into watching a significant amount of it. I couldn't put any of the big names from that style on my list when I really don't have the knowledge of it, or the desire to learn more.

 

Some people feel that way about FMW and garbage wrestling, some people don't like shoot style or lucha. I just never much cared for Joshi. I did put a lot of thought and research into my list, I read all the nomination threads for people whom I had seen and sought out footage for some of those whom I had not, or for those who I had not decided where to place...but I still don't have any women on my list.

 

Then again, I didn't vote for Brock Lesnar, CM Punk, or even Tully Blanchard, either. So it's not like any of the people on the list today made it from my ballot at the expense of a woman that I could have voted for instead. I had Finlay but lower, and Harley Race but much higher.

[Danish Dynamite]

 

I don't see how anyone who put serious work into this project could see these results as anything but a massive disappointment. 2 years of discussion and watching shitloads from all over the world and it's pretty much a generic mainstream US list with a few token obscure guys and big name puro guys. I'd argue it's actually it's actually a step back from the the 2006 since the small victories in BattlArts and WOS guys ranking is pretty much negated by US guys getting rated way too high and women nearly getting shut out.

Completely disagreed. No way the average fan votes this high for Valentine, Garvin, Martel, Buddy Rose, El Dandy, etc.. How is Lawler still alive?

 

Tamura made top 100. Come on... just because Brock made the list or some shit. I participated a ton and had Brock and Punk on my list too.

 

 

100% agree with Steven on this. I feel like I've really put serious work into this. But that hasn't made me come around on shoot. Just watching more BattlArts doesn't mean I'm going to like it more. Actually the ton of extra stuff from the US territories have made me rank stuff like Memphis, Mid-South, JCP etc. higher than I would two years ago. WoS certainly got on the map for me. The only thing I don't feel like I gave enough time to was joshi, so I only ended up with two women on my list. I'll say that two years of very intense watching as you say a shitload from all over the world has improved my liking of much, but also confirmed to me that my favorite styles are still North American, followed by the much praised Japanese eras and then lucha. I don't get the argument that the point of this project was to find out that what we've always loved was actually shit and that a whole new world of much better stuff revealed itself and we could all agree that this was "the best ever". I remember more than one saying at the outset that two years of watching one new style probably wouldn't be enough time for that to overtake what we've already spent 10, 15, 20 or more years watching as "all time great", but it might get it on the list. I'd rather say that if you have found something these last two years, that wasn't high on your radar before, and all of a sudden that produces a wrestler who's now your GWE, then it doesn't say as much about your viewing the last two years, but more about your lack of viewing previously...

 

EDIT: But hey, don't listen to me. I'm one of the most boring of the conservative voters I guess. I have everyone except Benoit of the remaining 43 guys. None of my top 25 have fallen yet. And those revealed today, the 50-44, were all placed between 35 and 57 on my ballot... And I'm definetely not disappointed with the list, so I guess to you I didn't put serious work into this project ;-)

[DR Ackermann]

While I agree that the footage explosion may mean less to the average fan than the impact it has had on people who are more interested in exploring the past I can't agree that is has had little impact on the results of this poll. The placement of guys like Satanico, Santana, Dandy, Valentine, Fujiwara and a bunch of others relative to how they were viewed 10 years ago disproves that notion.

[Danish Dynamite]

While I agree that the footage explosion may mean less to the average fan than the impact it has had on people who are more interested in exploring the past I can't agree that is has had little impact on the results of this poll. The placement of guys like Satanico, Santana, Dandy, Valentine, Fujiwara and a bunch of others relative to how they were viewed 10 years ago disproves that notion.

 

Agree

[Danish Dynamite]

Also, I know I might get shit kicked at me for this, but is it, in anyway, possible, that supporters of a particular niche style of wrestling thought that by showing a ton of footage of their favorite stuff and debating it, others would be convinced to love it as much. And then it just turns out that it is still a niche thing for those few, and that increasing the number of voters and the amount of footage, makes for a higher number of individual fans of said niche, but not necessarily a higher percentage? I don't even have a particular niche in mind for this argument, and I don't even know if it holds water. It's just a thought that came to me. And I get why that would feel disappointing to the guys who just really want to show something they love to others and have them get the same enjoyment.

[goodhelmet]

People really need to stop looking at this list as a be all end all on the debates we are having. The results aren't disappointing if you stop looking at the ranks as "Who is better". Dick Murdoch ended up as 53. I ranked him 11. DEAN ranked him 3. Nobody on earth is going to be able to prove to Dean Rasmussen that 50 other wrestlers are really better than Dick Murdoch. However, people who value Deans opinion are going to seek out more Murdoch or Ray Gonzalez or LA Park. So Jim Breaks didn't crack the Top 50? So What??? People a couple of years from now will find this list, look at Breaks in the Top 100, see all the glowing praise, and seek him out. The list isn't the end of a journey. It's the beginning.

[Jimmy Redman]

I find the constant moaning from people about how the list is too conservative or mainstream or whatever the fuck to be "disappointing".

 

First of all, the attitude that if you voted for certain mainstream US guys you must not have participated as much or thought too hard about your ballot or watched lucha or even "read the threads" is such arrogant, elitist fucking bullshit. Countless people participated thoroughly and still voted for, say, Brock. I did. Others have already put their hands up, and I'm sure more could as well. No, we clearly weren't swayed by any of the arguments against him. No, that doesn't make us bad or mindless voters.

 

Secondly, what did you expect? Like someone else said, we're voting for the greatest ever. We weren't voting for the wackiest, most non-conservative greatest ever. For a list like this, of course the usual suspects are going to be at the top. Especially with how many ballots came in; you get 150 people voting and no shit that relatively niche styles such as WoS, joshi, shootstyle are not going to be seen or voted on as much as mainstream US promotions.

 

During this project it has been said over and over again, and apparently still needs to be repeated: the process is more important than the final results. The results are just a bunch of numbers tallied up, of course it's going to be all over the place.

 

Y'all need to calm the fuck down with the disappointment shit. Don't be sad that Aja was only 49. Be happy that she made the Top 100. Be happy that she made 83 ballots, and that some of those people might not have known her from Adam when this project started, but have discovered her and liked her enough to rank her. Be happy about the discussion we got to have on her. Same with everyone else.

 

Just fucking enjoy it man. It's supposed to be a fun thing, not the end of the world.