Reactions to the List: 25-11

[Eegah]

The more I watched the more I enjoyed Taue for sure. In the 90s first seeing it I was drawn instantly to Kawada and Kobashi, theyd flip flop as my two favorites of the four. I always respected Misawa and could see the greatness but found myself always rooting for Kawada's side. For Kobashi he endeared me with how well he got his ass kicked. Over the years the rankings of who I thought was best and also how they stacked in my personal favorite rankings changed. If I added Akiyama itd be even more fluid but I do feel more comfortable because of the narrative and how attached at the hip they all were for a long stretch to compare them as a foursome.

 

Current day Taue is my second favorite and I had him ranked fourth of the four. I had him ranked 25 on my list. So of the elite of the elite, he is in the rare air for me. Give him a chance and watch some more, Im sure you will find ways to appreciate and value him more.

[Exposer]

There needs to be a brainwash machine created so Stacey can begin to love lucha brawls.

 

Great post though. My rankings of Lawler & Liger are pretty low compared to a lot of people's rankings of them. I might contribute to both not making the top 10 or 15. That has everything to do with not seeing enough rather than not liking them. I don't rank on reputation.

 

I guess my point is some may have ranked some folks lower because they hadn't seen enough. I did that with several names.

[WingedEagle]

Yeah there are plenty of wrestlers or styles I haven't ranked because of a lack of exposure (shoot style, some lucha) versus others that just really didn't rank super highly for me (Savage, Lawler, other lucha). Which is probably the case for everyone. Most of us have some blind spots, some more than others. Will fill them in eventually. Or manage to avoid divorce

[The Man in Blak]

The great satan Bret Hart is still alive. The worst mistake I've ever made was including him when Bob Holly was nominated

You should probably hit that chinlock soon or else you won't have anything left for the Hart Foundation when the tag list gets revealed next month.

[Dylan Waco]

Generally speaking I haven't gotten much worked up about the overall list results. Sure I've bitched about Bret, but most of that is in good fun, even if I do think he's absurdly overrated. That said the Casas drop does sting and I wanted to say something about why.

 

As one of the co-organizers of this (Steven has done all the real work, but we did develop the basic concept together), I have had more of a vested interest in the process than most. The desire to be inclusive was something I was always all in on, in part because I wanted the GWE to be about getting people to watch more stuff, but also because to me the same old perspectives don't really cut it for a project that is grandiose by design. My hope was that this project would be about exchanging ideas and thoughts about matches, promotions, styles, wrestlers, et. and that the end result would be a scenario where we all got to watch a bunch of new cool shit, but also where the cream would rise to the top in the end.

 

It is absolutely true that the final list is not something everyone will be happy with, but it is something that I generally wanted to be representative. Very early on in the results process I started to realize that no luchador would finish in the top ten and I had come to terms with that. My hope was that one would make the top 15. None did. None even made the top twenty. I see that as a major failure.

 

Some feel the same way about the Euro scene, or shootstyle, or Joshi. I don't, even though at this point in my fandom I would probably rather watch two of those three things more than lucha. I have multiple reasons for this some of which speak to my own criteria biases, some of which have to do with business model issues, and some of which have to do with the process itself (namely the fact that no one was advocating anyone from those groups as a number one contender). But the biggest reason is that it just feels wrong to me to see a style that has produced so much volume fail to get a single candidate into the top fifteen. Inevitable or not it comes across as a rejection of history to me, and I can't escape it.

 

I understand some will read that as whining, or bitterness, or elitism. It really isn't intended to be any of those things. That said I would be being dishonest if I said that it didn't bother me that no luchador could even make the top twenty.

 

It's very likely that I wouldn't care at all if I was just a participant. But as someone who pushed and promoted this from day one, and helped set up most of the process, I have a weird sense of ownership about the project as a whole that I want to be proud of. No luchador in the top fifth is something that really makes me wish my name wasn't associated with it beyond just my list. I have no clue if that is a good thing, bad thing, or an egotistical thing. I'm just thinking out loud.

 

Jimmy Redman's journey is great, but Jimmy Redman's journey got nine luchadors on her ballot. Nearly a third of voters didn't include them at all. I don't even feel like I'm part of the same universe as those fans, and I say that knowing full well that some of them may be people I like personally and deeply respect.

 

A project about favorites would have been boring as fuck to me, but it would have been less alienating if nothing else.

[Dylan Waco]

 

The great satan Bret Hart is still alive. The worst mistake I've ever made was including him when Bob Holly was nominated

You should probably hit that chinlock soon or else you won't have anything left for the Hart Foundation when the tag list gets revealed next month.

 

 

God, I may not even be around by then.

[Parties]

Too early for another Kamala break?

[bestintheworld3589]

People shown from my ballot yesterday

Barry Windham (51)

William Regal (29)

Arn Anderson (22)

Steve Austin (21)

Randy Savage (9)

 

 

This leaves 13 ppl on my list with my top 8 still to be shown.

[Badlittlekitten]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please create variations of the list based on # of posts made.

 

Not going to happen.

Yea number of posts is a silly metric but a list of people who were only active in the discussions threads would be an interesting list.

I've been a member at this board since the get-go, pretty much. I visit this board every single day, some times multiple times a day...and I'm pretty sure I read practically every nomination thread, or at least most of them. But I work a 4 day week of 12 hour shifts in my job, and it's not a job where I can get online much, if at all. I just don't have the time to get into prolonged discussions online on a regular basis. Sure I get days off, but I always have so much crammed in that I have to do when I'm not at work.

 

But there were people for this project who made my ballot, or who got ranked higher (or in rare cases lower) based solely on discussions I read here. I did not actively "participate" in these threads aside from listening to the discussion and checking out recommendations. Are we back to the idea that my ballot might not have counted for as much because I didn't have time to discuss each nominee at length? Because after that it will be straight into the idea that my ballot shouldn't count because I don't like Joshi, or Lucha is not my favorite style...and next thing you know, you've got four guys left voting.

 

There are a couple of guys on my ballot that I was upset to see place so low, in a couple of cases they didn't even break the Top 100. I wasn't happy, but I got it. I knew being a fan of FMW/ECW and not Joshi or Memphis was going to put my ballot at odds with other ballots. I'd like to think if challenged, I could defend my ballot. And now I really want to learn more about some of these guys, like the World of Sport guys, or Casas for example.

 

But the way some people taking this so seriously that they are bitching about so many results, or that some people don't deserve to be on the list, or saying they aren't going to continue to follow the list, or they want to see the ballots broken down into different categories based on different criteria...kind of sucks all the fun out of this project.

Christ, nobody asked for your life story mate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was such a relief to come across a Japanese main eventer that made use of facial expressions, had genuine intensity, didn't stick rigidly to 'stoic'.

 

Um...what?

GWE equivalent of Vince taking wrestling from smoke-filled venues to what it is today.

My thought process was:

 

"How could anybody have ever seen even a handful of Japanese Main Events and not seen a match with Kobashi?"

 

Unless Kobashi is still too stoic with not enough intensity and facial expressions. That is one of the main knocks against him.

I did my homework, pal. Kobashi's always been an outlier. Good luck getting any range beyond Tenryu's 'mildly disgruntled' face, Inoki's 'I've a big chin' face and Choshu's 'half a grin away from down syndrome' face.

[Jimmy Redman]

You guys really need to quit it with the charm.

 

On the list, Savage was the final guy to drop who I didn't rank, so I'm all gravy from here. Bret is the only remaining guy from the bottom half of my ballot yet to die.

[pol]

Still confused about how encouraging people to vote that didn't participate in the process is justified by "it's about the journey". You'd think it would be the opposite if anything.

[Jimmy Redman]

Still confused about how encouraging people to vote that didn't participate in the process is justified by "it's about the journey". You'd think it would be the opposite if anything.

 

The point is that everyone's own journey is valid, whether it was spent posting in the threads, or just lurking around here, or from watching wrestling on their own and hearing about the project at the last minute.

 

And the point is that your own journey should be more important to you than worrying about anyone else's and reasons why they're not qualified to vote on an internet poll about wrestlers.

[Dylan Waco]

Still confused about how encouraging people to vote that didn't participate in the process is justified by "it's about the journey". You'd think it would be the opposite if anything.

 

I'm still confused about what this is referencing. I actually deliberately avoided spamming my Twitter feed with calls for votes for this specific reason. The encouragement on the board was done as a response to a deluge of PM's from people who were involved in the process suggesting that they felt "out grouped" because of the behavior of certain other people. Obviously I'm not going to name names, but some of the people in PM's were very much a part of the process.

[Jimmy Redman]

So I told my mother that Undertaker only came in at #84 and she totally agrees with you guys: the list is bullshit.

[pol]

Whether it's a real phenomenon is worth discussing, but kind of tangential to my point, I think. Which is that I see people expressing frustration with e.g. lucha underrepresentation, assuming this is a product of the number of votes from people who didn't participate fully, and being told in response "it's about the journey!" when they're already specifically talking about (the lack of participation in) the journey.

 

"What you're complaining about isn't a real thing that actually happened" is a far more valid response.

[Shrike02]

So I told my mother that Undertaker only came in at #84 and she totally agrees with you guys: the list is bullshit.

 

I would like this but apparently I am not allowed to by the site. Likes per day by me is, somehow, zero.

[Jimmy Redman]

The site doesn't use Likes. But I appreciate that.

[The Thread Killer]

Hashimoto (along with Satanico) is my favourite discovery coming out of this project. It was such a relief to come across a Japanese main eventer that made use of facial expressions, had genuine intensity, didn't stick rigidly to 'stoic'. At #15 he's my second highest Jap male.

Good luck getting any range beyond Tenryu's 'mildly disgruntled' face, Inoki's 'I've a big chin' face and Choshu's 'half a grin away from down syndrome' face.

So...social skills are not your thing, huh?

[The Thread Killer]

Too early for another Kamala break?

It's always a good time for Kamala.

 

Andre vs. Kamala, in a cage, from Toronto, complete with top rope action from Andre! This is why Kamala made my list (as #100.)

[overbooked]

I would love to see an alternative list ordered by average vote. That way those wrestlers who are pretty much consensus picks still get valued, but so do those more niche wrestlers who were really touted by those who considered them. It wouldn't be the perfect system, as there isn't one, but it might put an interesting spin on the process without getting into awkward establishment versus newbies stuff.

[Jimmy Redman]

Someone has already been doing that, check the forum.

[overbooked]

Someone has already been doing that, check the forum.

 

Oh. Stupid me. Ignore me then.

[overbooked]

 

Someone has already been doing that, check the forum.

 

Oh. Stupid me. Ignore me then.

 

 

And perhaps even more stupidly, I can't find the thread. I was suggesting ordering the list by the "Average vote" mentioned under each entry on the main list. And I don't understand how an "Average vote" list could be created until the main list is complete.

 

Thanks.

[Jimmy Redman]

Well it will be updated when the list finishes I'm sure, but I'm sure there's a guy who ranked the guys so far based on highest average vote. I think it was of the guys above the top 100.

 

My point was that don't worry, someone is onto it.

[conker8]

Yesterday, I lost two of my top ten : Negro Casas (4) and Shinya Hashimoto (7).

 

With an average of 19 and the high number of top 10 votes, people need to see him. And Santo too.