Booker Ratings

[goc]

Please post your score for Eddie Graham so I can shit all over it because he didn't have the foresight to make Hogan a top star straight out of training with Hiro Matsuda.

[El-P]

You weren't the only person to live through the 90s, El-P.

 

Hogan, Savage, and co never vacated those top slots to let Jericho and co be main eventers, which is exactly why they ALL ended up jumping ship.

 

Radicalz, anyone?

 

There's being a star, and then there's being a STAR. Until you are main eventing, you aren't really made.

 

Vince made Jericho a world champ, many times. Same Eddie, same Rey, same Benoit. He also made people like Edge and Foley world champs.

 

Bischoff meanwhile didn't make any of those guys champions and stuck with ... The stars Vince made in the 80s and early 90s for the best part.

 

Eric gets 0 for making new stars all day long. He had the best roster of ALL TIME, all time, no question. He didn't know what to do with it.

 

I see you basically just added "new star" next to "talent spotting" just to justify your point. You're a riot.

 

BTW, what about the fact Vince let Hogan & Savage go because they were "tool old", despite what Jerry Jarrett was telling him, and Bischoff finding a way to make them relevant again in 96/97 and the biggest money machine ever this side to New Japan ? Jericho & Chris Benoit would not do that kind of business, not at this point (well, it's not like they ever did in WWE either, but that's beside the point, Eddie, Rey & Jericho were main event and star material). Any credit for that ?

 

Another thing : should we give credit to Vince for making Diesel & Ramon, whom he basically took from WCW with more or less the same kind of gimmicks (really, look at Vinnie Vegas and the later days Diamond Studd) ? And should we not give credit for Bischoff to make them STARS with the nWo angle (like Vince did with Rey/Eddie/Jericho, on a lesser scale) ? Or does that work only in one way (Vince = God = 10 / Bischoff = Evil = 0) ?

 

Goldy ? Still 0 ?

 

Lex Luger flopping in WWF and being a star again in WCW ?

 

Raven being the most over upper mid-carder in WCW at one point / not doing shit in WWF ?

 

DDP ? Bischoff not getting credit for DDP ?? REALLY ????

[goc]

You weren't the only person to live through the 90s, El-P.

 

Hogan, Savage, and co never vacated those top slots to let Jericho and co be main eventers, which is exactly why they ALL ended up jumping ship.

 

Radicalz, anyone?

 

There's being a star, and then there's being a STAR. Until you are main eventing, you aren't really made.

 

Vince made Jericho a world champ, many times. Same Eddie, same Rey, same Benoit. He also made people like Edge and Foley world champs.

 

Bischoff meanwhile didn't make any of those guys champions and stuck with ... The stars Vince made in the 80s and early 90s for the best part.

 

Eric gets 0 for making new stars all day long. He had the best roster of ALL TIME, all time, no question. He didn't know what to do with it.

You're double talking like crazy in this thread. Or did you forget that you just discounted Rick Martel being "made a star" by Verne, despite Verne making him the champion, because he was already a known quantity?

[NintendoLogic]

Verne turned Hogan babyface at the end of 1981. Hogan's first title shot against Bockwinkel came in February of 1982. Rocky III came out in May of 1982. So Verne pushing Hogan as a top babyface predates Rocky. Yes, Verne brought him in as a heel. But he saw the reactions he was getting and, quelle horreur, let the crowd dictate to him. Not to mention the fact that he got Hogan over by booking him the exact same way he had booked the Crusher in previous decades. This idea that Verne had nothing to do with Hogan becoming a star is completely ludicrous. Come on now.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

You weren't the only person to live through the 90s, El-P.

 

Hogan, Savage, and co never vacated those top slots to let Jericho and co be main eventers, which is exactly why they ALL ended up jumping ship.

 

Radicalz, anyone?

 

There's being a star, and then there's being a STAR. Until you are main eventing, you aren't really made.

 

Vince made Jericho a world champ, many times. Same Eddie, same Rey, same Benoit. He also made people like Edge and Foley world champs.

 

Bischoff meanwhile didn't make any of those guys champions and stuck with ... The stars Vince made in the 80s and early 90s for the best part.

 

Eric gets 0 for making new stars all day long. He had the best roster of ALL TIME, all time, no question. He didn't know what to do with it.

I see you basically just added "new star" next to talent spotting just to justify your point. You're a riot.

 

The category has been "Talent spotting / New stars" since I made the thread 5 hours ago.

 

BTW, what about the fact Vince let Hogan & Savage go because they were "tool old", despite what Jerry Jarrett was telling him, and Bischoff finding a way to make them relevant again in 96/97 and the biggest money machine ever this side to New Japan?

Fucking hell, is this 1999? Are we in a WWF vs. WCW time warp debate?

 

It was a double-edged sword wasn't it. Rely on the big old stars, but then realise when their demands are so high that you've basically hamstrung yourself from ever making new stars.

 

Bischoff is one of the worst managers of talent the business has ever seen, and WCW tanking was the result.

 

I feel like R.D. Reynolds here.

 

Another thing : should we give credit to Vince for making Diesel & Ramon, whom he basically took from WCW with more or less the same kind of gimmicks (really, look at Vinnie Vegas and the later days Diamond Studd) ? And should we not give credit for Bischoff to make them STARS with the nWo angle (like Vince did with Rey/Eddie/Jericho, on a lesser scale) ? Or does that work only in one way (Vince = God = 10 / Bischoff = Evil = 0) ?

You have just legit compared the WCW Diamond Studd run to the WWF Razor Ramon run.

 

I'm worried thatif you get any more rope we won't be seeing you again.

[JerryvonKramer]

You're double talking like crazy in this thread. Or did you forget that you just discounted Rick Martel being "made a star" by Verne, despite Verne making him the champion, because he was already a known quantity?

It's was a different time. Martel had mainevented in other places before. He'd worked on top against Bock in Hawaii. He'd mainevented in Portland against Rose. He'd main evented and held titles in New Zealand, and in Canada.

 

You just can't compare a mid-90s ECW stint with any of that. Martel was already a star in 85, in a way that some of these other guys weren't.

 

I'll give Verne credit for making him champ at a difficult time. I don't think doing so made him any bigger of a star.

 

It's not like the difference between Jericho in 1997 and Jericho in 2002.

[goc]

 

You're double talking like crazy in this thread. Or did you forget that you just discounted Rick Martel being "made a star" by Verne, despite Verne making him the champion, because he was already a known quantity?

It's was a different time. Martel had mainevented in other places before. He'd worked on top against Bock in Hawaii. He'd mainevented in Portland against Rose. He'd main evented and held titles in New Zealand, and in Canada.

 

You just can't compare a mid-90s ECW stint with any of that. Martel was already a star in 85, in a way that some of these other guys weren't.

 

I'll give Verne credit for making him champ at a difficult time. I don't think doing so made him any bigger of a star.

 

It's not like the difference between Jericho in 1997 and Jericho in 2002.

 

Ok now "I refuse to give Verne Gagne any credit for anything" double talk your way out of NintendoLogic blowing up your Thunderlips timeline.

 

Verne turned Hogan babyface at the end of 1981. Hogan's first title shot against Bockwinkel came in February of 1982. Rocky III came out in May of 1982. So Verne pushing Hogan as a top babyface predates Rocky. Yes, Verne brought him in as a heel. But he saw the reactions he was getting and, quelle horreur, let the crowd dictate to him. Not to mention the fact that he got Hogan over by booking him the exact same way he had booked the Crusher in previous decades. This idea that Verne had nothing to do with Hogan becoming a star is completely ludicrous. Come on now.

[Sean Liska]

I would rank Jerry Jarrett highly in all of these categories. Anyone think there is somewhere he falls short?

[JerryvonKramer]

Verne turned Hogan babyface at the end of 1981. Hogan's first title shot against Bockwinkel came in February of 1982. Rocky III came out in May of 1982. So Verne pushing Hogan as a top babyface predates Rocky. Yes, Verne brought him in as a heel. But he saw the reactions he was getting and, quelle horreur, let the crowd dictate to him. Not to mention the fact that he got Hogan over by booking him the exact same way he had booked the Crusher in previous decades. This idea that Verne had nothing to do with Hogan becoming a star is completely ludicrous. Come on now.

Well, see, I watched the footage from 1980 and it was a HUGE talking point, then, on camera, that Hogan was going off to make Rocky. So it was known about THEN. And Hogan was playing up to it THEN. And Kal Rudman was losing his shit over it THEN.

 

And Rocky was already big because it was the third film. If you watch that footage, Vince -- who is on commentary don't forget -- clearly has a virtual boner. Clearly. He was generally pretty calm on commentary back then, but Hogan perks him up in a very real way.

 

So if there was buzz around Hogan in 1980, even when he was a heel, in boring old Vince Sr land, then it's not much of a jump to say that WHEREVER he landed up post-Rocky he was going to blow up. It was just on the wall.

 

In fact, I seem to remember that the very reason he left WWF in the first place was because Vince Sr, being as anti-celebrity as he was, didn't want him to do it.

 

----------

 

It is good though, because no one in this thread can take the line that Verne made Hogan without ALSO giving Vince credit for making Austin.

 

So if you want we can bump Verne up to 2/10 in that category. But then we have to give Vince some credit for Austin. Horses for courses.

[goc]

 

Verne turned Hogan babyface at the end of 1981. Hogan's first title shot against Bockwinkel came in February of 1982. Rocky III came out in May of 1982. So Verne pushing Hogan as a top babyface predates Rocky. Yes, Verne brought him in as a heel. But he saw the reactions he was getting and, quelle horreur, let the crowd dictate to him. Not to mention the fact that he got Hogan over by booking him the exact same way he had booked the Crusher in previous decades. This idea that Verne had nothing to do with Hogan becoming a star is completely ludicrous. Come on now.

Well, see, I watched the footage from 1980 and it was a HUGE talking point, then, on camera, that Hogan was going off to make Rocky. So it was known about THEN. And Hogan was playing up to it THEN. And Kal Rudman was losing his shit over it THEN.

 

And Rocky was already big because it was the third film. If you watch that footage, Vince -- who is on commentary don't forget -- clearly has a virtual boner. Clearly. He was generally pretty calm on commentary back then, but Hogan perks him up in a very real way.

 

So if there was buzz around Hogan in 1980, even when he was a heel, in boring old Vince Sr land, then it's not much of a jump to say that WHEREVER he landed up post-Rocky he was going to blow up. It was just on the wall.

 

In fact, I seem to remember that the very reason he left WWF in the first place was because Vince Sr, being as anti-celebrity as he was, didn't want him to do it.

 

----------

 

It is good though, because no one in this thread can take the line that Verne made Hogan without ALSO giving Vince credit for making Austin.

 

So if you want we can bump Verne up to 2/10 in that category. But then we have to give Vince some credit for Austin. Horses for course.

 

What does any of that stuff about Vince & Kal Rudman talking up his role on WWF commentary have to do with him already being the top babyface in AWA almost 6 months before the movie came out? It IS kind of a big jump to say it was on the wall that he was going to blow up after Rocky came out when he ALREADY HAD DONE SO before the movie was released.

[Ricky Jackson]

Going back to Verne and expanding to California, he made a move in the late 60s to try and secure LA, he even ran shows at the Great Western Forum, but LaBelle rejoined the NWA and ran loaded shows in opposition. Then in the early 80s, Verne moved into SF after Shire folded, but didn't find much success I believe

[El-P]

You have just legit compared the WCW Diamond Studd run to the WWF Razor Ramon run.

 

Not the run. But the gimmick. Save for the accent, it was basically the same.

 

But of course, you're ignoring my point. How is Bischoff making Diesel, the biggest failure as WWF champ ever, and Razor Ramon, WWF upper midcarder when WWF wasn't drawing shit, into true STAR drawing shitloads of money different from what Vince did with Rey/Eddie/Jericho/Benoit (except those really didn't draw shitloads of money in WWE) ?

 

Still waiting for you to make sense and stop the double talk.

[JerryvonKramer]

Going back to Verne and expanding to California, he made a move in the late 60s to try and secure LA, he even ran shows at the Great Western Forum, but LaBelle rejoined the NWA and ran loaded shows in opposition. Then in the early 80s, Verne moved into SF after Shire folded, but didn't find much success I believe

Pretty interesting. So he did have *some* foresight, and he did try, but failed anyway.

 

goc, what does this do to your thesis sir?

[goc]

 

Going back to Verne and expanding to California, he made a move in the late 60s to try and secure LA, he even ran shows at the Great Western Forum, but LaBelle rejoined the NWA and ran loaded shows in opposition. Then in the early 80s, Verne moved into SF after Shire folded, but didn't find much success I believe

Pretty interesting. So he did have *some* foresight, and he did try, but failed anyway.

 

goc, what does this do to your thesis sir?

 

My thesis that you're ignoring the fact that Verne was better at making stars than the score of 1 that you gave him because he made the biggest star of the 80s? That you're double talking like crazy in this thread to give credit to Vince McMahon and no one else? It doesn't do anything to it.

 

No one ever succeeded running opposition to NWA backed loaded shows. As far as the 80s, that just shows that moving his base to California wouldn't have been a good idea because wrestling wasn't doing well there at the time.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

You have just legit compared the WCW Diamond Studd run to the WWF Razor Ramon run.

Not the run. But the gimmick. Save for the accent, it was basically the same.

 

But of course, you're ignoring my point. How is Bischoff making Diesel, the biggest failure as WWF champ ever, and Razor Ramon, WWF upper midcarder when WWF wasn't drawing shit, into true STAR drawing shitloads of money different from what Vince did with Rey/Eddie/Jericho/Benoit (except those really didn't draw shitloads of money in WWE) ?

 

Still waiting for you to make sense and stop the double talk.

 

Hall and Nash were much bigger stars in 94-6 than Jericho, Benoit or Eddie in 96-9 in terms of name recognition to the average fan and in terms of card positioning.

 

Ramon was an upper mid-carder but being IC title holder in WWF in the mid-90s was a bigger deal than being a cruiserweight or at US champ level.

 

If you list the number of guys in front of Ramon in 94-5 and the number of guys in front of WCW Jericho, it's not even comparable. I can't be botheredd to spell it out, because it's self-evident. You can't realistically compare Razor vs. Shawn feud to Jericho vs. Dean (as an example).

 

While, we're at it, Vince takes Jericho and makes him a star.

 

Eric takes Bret and ... oh. Come on, he didn't know his arse from his elbow.

 

We're talking about the greatest wrestling promoter of all time, ALL TIME, no question in terms of making money and stars, and Eric Bischoff, little more than a shooting star in the long history of the sport, who ... fucking tanked a promotion with the greatest roster we'll ever ever see.

[El-P]

If you list the number of guys in front of Ramon in 94-5 and the number of guys in front of WCW Jericho, it's not even comparable. I can't be botheredd to spell it out, because it's self-evident. You can't realistically compare Razor vs. Shawn feud to Jericho vs. Dean (as an example).

 

Yeah, sure. WWF drew a lot more people, ratings and money in 94-95 than WCW did in 96-97. That's factual. That red hot Razor vs Jarrett feud in 95 under Diesel vs Sid was much more substantial than Benoit vs Sullivan under the nWo in 96. Eddie vs Rey at Havoc 97 is nothing in term of hot undercard match next to Razor vs I.R.S. in 94. Self-evident indeed.

 

.....

 

for fuck's sake.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

If you list the number of guys in front of Ramon in 94-5 and the number of guys in front of WCW Jericho, it's not even comparable. I can't be botheredd to spell it out, because it's self-evident. You can't realistically compare Razor vs. Shawn feud to Jericho vs. Dean (as an example).

Yeah, sure. WWF drew a lot more people, ratings and money in 94-95 than WCW did in 96-97. That's factual. That red hot Razor vs Jarrett feud in 95 under Diesel vs Sid was much more substantial than Benoit vs Sullivan under the nWo in 96. Eddie vs Rey at Havoc 97 is nothing in term of hot undercard match next to Razor vs I.R.S. in 94. Self-evident indeed.

 

.....

 

for fuck's sake.

 

If you're going down that road, Rick Martel meant more as the model than he did drawing flies for Verne.

 

And pretty much any WWF midcarder in the 80s was "made a star" by Vince, not by the territory who booked them originally.

[Iron Anderson]

I find it odd that George Scott (JCP days) hasn't been mentioned once.

[funkdoc]

no way in hell does Baba deserve a 9 for making new stars.

 

probably the main reason he's not a GOAT booker/promoter is that he was far too slow to push native wrestlers, which killed AJPW's chances of recruiting new talent after the lightning-in-a-bottle that was the Pillars. even Misawa likely would have had to wait years longer for his time had Tenryu not left, to say nothing of the others.

 

consider: Kikuchi didn't beat Fuchi for the junior title until freaking *1996*. that was pretty typical of how Baba handled natives; considering how gaijin monsters typically got the rocket strapped to them, that had to be frustrating for an awful lot of people. i remember jdw arguing that late-90s AJPW should have been pursuing guys like Masato Tanaka to build a future, but do you really believe he'd rather do 5+ years of undercard jobs than become an instant hot act in the indies & ECW to build his name value for NJPW?

 

i think Baba tends to get a pass on this because of when he died, as the fallout with his wife meant we didn't get to see the long-term effects of all this. but i would absolutely factor it in!

[GOTNW]

 

It's Baba faced with Kenta Kobashi in 1992-3 and saying to both him and the crowd, "no kid, you have to wait your turn. And I'm going to make you wait".

Where's JDW when you need him.

[Microstatistics]

 

Vince Jr. (00s-present)

 

Mastery over crowd: 0

Innovation: 3

Angles: 4

Quality of Cards: 9

Finances: 10

Talent spotting / New stars: 7

 

 

 

 

 

Surprised you gave it 9 considering how much you don't like the modern WWE main event style.

[jdw]

 

It's Baba faced with Kenta Kobashi in 1992-3 and saying to both him and the crowd, "no kid, you have to wait your turn. And I'm going to make you wait".

 

 

[jdw]

 

 

It's Baba faced with Kenta Kobashi in 1992-3 and saying to both him and the crowd, "no kid, you have to wait your turn. And I'm going to make you wait".

Where's JDW when you need him.

 

 

Didn't even know this nonsensical thread existed until someone pointed it out to me in PM.

[JerryvonKramer]

Care to elaborate or are you just going to be an abusive twat as usual?

 

Kobashi was monumentally over in that timeframe and some bookers, it seems to me, would have accelerated to the Misawa feud to capitalise on the hotness rather than slow burn through the set stages of Baba's traditional plan of gradual elevation.

 

Going over Gordy, winning CC, beating Hansen after several attempts, and so on is a slow burn elevation in Baba's own time. He didn't put the title on him till 96.

 

So what exactly about this makes me a special kind of stupid?

[PeteF3]

Speaking only has some nobody who's watched all of 1991 and '92 AJ television and too many hours of Yearbooks, I have to side with Parv on the Kobashi issue unless there's something I'm missing. Most any other booker would have put him over Hansen in '92 or '93 and made him a legitimate Triple Crown contender not long after. The high point of Kobashi's 1993 from a push as opposed to a workrate standpoint seemed to be being the fourth wheel in his first Budokan main event and being gift-wrapped a pin in the final RWTL match.