Booker Ratings

[jdw]

Misawa was hotter than Kobashi at the time. 1992-93 were used to give Misawa the TC for the first time, and then after Jumbo went out, to establish Misawa as the Ace and Kawada as his top rival. Considering that was doing great business, jumping Kobashi up to challenge Misawa for the TC in 1992-93 when Misawa-Kawada was first starting is borderline insane.

 

FWIW, he did go over Gordy in 1993 before Gordy overdosed.

[jdw]

Most any other booker would have put him over Hansen in '92 or '93 and made him a legitimate Triple Crown contender not long after. The high point of Kobashi's 1993 from a push as opposed to a workrate standpoint seemed to be being the fourth wheel in his first Budokan main event and being gift-wrapped a pin in the final RWTL match.

 

Kobashi beat Hansen in 1994 and was a challenger for the TC in 1994.

 

So we blow off Misawa-Kawada which sold out Budokan every time in 1992-94, and instead jump Kobashi over Kawada to be Misawa's rival... despite Kobashi never having beaten Kawada ever at that time and Kawada being very hot as Misawa's rival in 1993-94, while Kobashi was perfect as Misawa's new partner.

[soup23]

He challenged for the Triple Crown in September of 1994. That is 2.5 years after the nuclear heat that is seen in the 5/25/92 tag. That is a good bit of patience all for a Triple Crown challenge against a rival making his first defense. What is a point of comparison for someone else that over that had to wait that long for a shot?

[JerryvonKramer]

Want to go over this so El-P doesn't think that my 10 for 90s Vince and 0 for Eric in the new stars category isn't some imagined bias.

 

First, here's an example of a 6:

 

New stars made by Vince in the 80s:

 

Honkytonk Man

Ultimate Warrior

Ravishing Rick Rude

Tito Santana

Jake Roberts

Randy Savage

Big Boss Man

Demolition

Davey Boy Smith

Brutus Beefcake

 

These were guys who were all over and who could be put in drawing positions who primarily made their name in WWF. Note, I've not given him Hogan, Piper, DiBiase, Duggan, Valentine, Hennig, etc. etc. Even though all of those guys drew and made far more money with Vince than they ever did with anyone else.

 

That's a SIX

 

In the 90s, there are many more than that, which is why it's a 10.

 

Here are the new stars made by Bischoff:

 

Goldberg

DDP

 

When you have the best roster of all time, and you have the machinery of Turner behind you, that's a zero.

[Grimmas]

Can you define what you mean by making stars.

 

If you can add Jake Roberts to that list, then guys like Raven, Rey, Eddie, Benoit, Jericho, Malenko, The Giant, Booker T, Scott Steiner all get credit too.

[JerryvonKramer]

Giant is one I forgot about, and you could probably give him that.

 

Raven is clearly a Heyman star.

 

When were the others put in drawing positions by Bischoff? And who among them was as big a star in the 90s as Jake was in the 80s?

 

Wasn't Eric gone by the time Booker T and Scott Steiner got their big pushes? Were they *cough* Russo / Ferrera stars? I can't remember exactly, but I want to say he was gone.

 

Not that we can remotely pretend that Eric Bischoff or Vince Russo made Scott Steiner a star. Since he was clearly already a big star by 1992 at the latest.

 

I'm defining "star" as someone who is over, can be put in main events and drawing positions with name recognition. Someone like Jake is actually a good bubble man as a benchmark.

 

The Hall / Nash example is instructive here. Because when they turned up on WCW TV it *meant* something. People already knew who they were and it was a major deal.

 

Now you could say the same thing about Radicalz, but look back on that and was it really the same? It seemed more like each of those guys turned up with something to prove rather than as big already-established stars.

 

Here is the ever-dependable Wikipedia on the matter:

 

In early 2000, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Perry Saturn and Dean Malenko headed to the World Wrestling Federation (WWF), in a move seen by some as the death knell for WCW, which ceased to exist in a year. At the time of the jump, Benoit, Malenko and Saturn were members of a stable in WCW called The Revolution, whose leader was "The Franchise" Shane Douglas, which further fueled the rumors that Douglas wanted in on the jump.

At the time of their departure to the WWF, Benoit was recognized as the WCW World Heavyweight Champion,[1] having won the vacant title by defeating Sid Vicious at Souled Out. In reality, then WCW head booker Kevin Sullivan decided to give Benoit the title as an attempt to keep him in WCW.

A stable led by Shane Douglas ... Does that smack of big star to you?

[Grimmas]

Jake Roberts was discovered by Bill Watts then.

[goc]

But WCW gave DA BELT~! to Benoit first so you can't count him.

[JerryvonKramer]

Jake Roberts was discovered by Bill Watts then.

Watts gets credit for JYD, DiBiase, Duggan, Steve Williams, One Man Gang, and Butch Reed, but I don't feel I can give him Jake.

 

 

Here is the ever dependable Jake Roberts himself on the matter:

 

Well, it was quite the experience. I had been working in Mid-South and not really being given a fair shake there. I was told I was number five on the babyface list, yet I was going on last every night. So, that kind of tells you something.

Yes, the feud with Slater and he held the NA title, but you know a masked bloke called The Nightmare also held that. Jake in Watts land seems distinctly Mid-Card-y to me and certainly was nowhere near as over as he was in WWF.

 

But WCW gave DA BELT~! to Benoit first so you can't count him.

Come on.

[goc]

Hey I'm just using your criteria here.

 

You did watch the Jake footage in Mid-South where they loudly chant DDT during his matches right?

[Grimmas]

 

Jake Roberts was discovered by Bill Watts then.

Watts gets credit for JYD, DiBiase, Duggan, Steve Williams, One Man Gang, and Butch Reed, but I don't feel I can give him Jake.

 

 

Here is the ever dependable Jake Roberts himself on the matter:

 

Well, it was quite the experience. I had been working in Mid-South and not really being given a fair shake there. I was told I was number five on the babyface list, yet I was going on last every night. So, that kind of tells you something.

Yes, the feud with Slater and he held the NA title, but you know a masked bloke called The Nightmare also held that. Jake in Watts land seems distinctly Mid-Card-y to me and certainly was nowhere near as over as he was in WWF.

 

But WCW gave DA BELT~! to Benoit first so you can't count him.

Come on.

 

For Jake, your criteria states if someone gets put into main events, they are counted there. Jake counts for Mid South.

 

Benoit got the title and main evented two ppvs vs Sid and vs Bret. How does WCW not get credit for that? How does Vince get credit for that?

[goc]

 

 

Jake Roberts was discovered by Bill Watts then.

Watts gets credit for JYD, DiBiase, Duggan, Steve Williams, One Man Gang, and Butch Reed, but I don't feel I can give him Jake.

 

 

Here is the ever dependable Jake Roberts himself on the matter:

 

Well, it was quite the experience. I had been working in Mid-South and not really being given a fair shake there. I was told I was number five on the babyface list, yet I was going on last every night. So, that kind of tells you something.

Yes, the feud with Slater and he held the NA title, but you know a masked bloke called The Nightmare also held that. Jake in Watts land seems distinctly Mid-Card-y to me and certainly was nowhere near as over as he was in WWF.

 

But WCW gave DA BELT~! to Benoit first so you can't count him.

Come on.

 

For Jake, your criteria states if someone gets put into main events, they are counted there. Jake counts for Mid South.

 

Benoit got the title and main evented two ppvs vs Sid and vs Bret. How does WCW not get credit for that? How does Vince get credit for that?

 

I'm not really sure he was in the main event of much more than 2 PPVs in his whole run in WWE. The only ones I know for sure he was the last match on was WM 20 and the rematch the next month. During his title reign he played 2nd fiddle to the never ending and always awful HHH/HBK feud.

[JerryvonKramer]

Are you two being purposely fucking obtuse? Are you trying to wind me up?

 

Jake wasn't a big star until he jumped to WWF and he blew up some time after 86. You can pinpoint that SNME match with Savage, and he was huge. He wasn't huge in Watts land.

 

Benoit wasn't a big star until he was main evening Wrestlemanias.

 

Stop being such nitpicking childish moronic cunts and use your common sense for fuck's sake.

[goc]

Use your eyes and your fucking ears on that Mid-South footage and tell me Jake "wasn't a big star" because the crowds sure as hell treated him like one. He was also main event in Georgia.

[JerryvonKramer]

There's a difference between a crowd reaction and being a big star.

 

Sting got big crowd reactions in 1988; he wasn't a big star until 1990.

[goc]

You're the one being fucking obtuse here. Rick Martel gets put in main events and made the champion but "doesn't count" for Verne yet Jake who was really just a featured mid-card player for WWF gets counted for Vince? Bullshit.

 

Jake was the top heel in the top feud with Ronnie Garvin in Georgia. On national TV.

[PeteF3]

I'm having trouble quoting now too, but getting back to Kobashi:

 

- I didn't say he should or would be the Ace, or even the Top Contender.

 

- There's no rule in AJPW or otherwise that being "a" contender is the same as being the only contender. This isn't the 1994-95 WWF women's division--Kawada can be the main rival and Kobashi can still be seen as a contender.

 

All Parv and I and Chad, to some degree, are saying is that Kobashi's run to the top was slower than it would have been in almost any other promotion. Even if Choshu was booking the company and held off just as long in putting the TC on him, he'd doubtless have gotten those trademark Choshu upsets over the top dogs earlier.

[PeteF3]

And Sting strikes me as being a MUCH bigger star in '88 than '90. I'm guessing Clash I was the largest TV audience he wrestled in front of until the Nitro era and certainly bigger than anything in 1990. Also, '88 was more about the sky being the limit rather than 1990's sense of "okay, he's the champ, now what?"

 

It wasn't his *peak* as a star, but he was definitely a bigger force earlier on than in his first run at the top.

[JerryvonKramer]

You're the one being fucking obtuse here. Rick Martel gets put in main events and made the champion but "doesn't count" for Verne yet Jake who was really just a featured mid-card player for WWF gets counted for Vince? Bullshit.

 

Jake was the top heel in the top feud with Ronnie Garvin in Georgia. On national TV.

It's possible I've underrated pre-WWF Jake to an extent but I really don't see him as a "star" on par with guys like Ted, Piper, Valentine, and so on -- it's hazy water but if you look at the examples of DiBiase and Piper, say, they are demonstrable stars with signature runs. Jake doesn't feel like that sort of guy to me. And his WWF run seems like a big elevation.

 

If it'll make you happy we can give Martel to Verne. Even if we do, the number of original stars he made was relatively small considering how long he had the promotion.

[JerryvonKramer]

And Sting strikes me as being a MUCH bigger star in '88 than '90. I'm guessing Clash I was the largest TV audience he wrestled in front of until the Nitro era and certainly bigger than anything in 1990. Also, '88 was more about the sky being the limit rather than 1990's sense of "okay, he's the champ, now what?"

 

It wasn't his *peak* as a star, but he was definitely a bigger force earlier on than in his first run at the top.

Actually you know what you're right, it's late and I was thinking about that six-man (in 87?) and forgot all about Clash 1!!!

 

I'd agree he choked in 90; I'd also agree he felt like the bigger star in 88.

 

Just pick another example because Jake wasn't Sting in 88 over in Mid-South but he arguably was in WWF as both heel and face.

[joeg]

Are you two being purposely fucking obtuse? Are you trying to wind me up?

Jake wasn't a big star until he jumped to WWF and he blew up some time after 86. You can pinpoint that SNME match with Savage, and he was huge. He wasn't huge in Watts land.

Benoit wasn't a big star until he was main evening Wrestlemanias.

Stop being such nitpicking childish moronic cunts and use your common sense for fuck's sake.

Agreed that they didn't become big stars until WWE. For Jake I would pinpoint it at the fued with Steamboat in 86 somewhere in there. Correct me if I'm wrong but that was before the Savage match. And for Benoit I'd put it at the tag match where he and Jericho went over HHH and Austin. First match he went over somebody that mattered.

[joeg]

Look at the number of guys who passed through the AWA and were a bigger deal else where. I think the only star Verne Gagne was successful in creating was Verne Gagne

 

I would also like to see where people put Ultimo Dragon as a booker. He started a promotion with only his students , and at a time when New Japan and All Japan were on deaths door managed to draw crowds of 10000 for the big yearly show before he left for the WWE. Regardless of what you think of the in ring style that's impressive.

[SomethingSavage]

Why is Bischoff even being discussed, listed, or ranked? He never booked anything.

 

The nWo, Crow Sting in the rafters, Goldberg's streak, the cruiserweight division, Raven's Flock, and Lex "racks the world" angles all happened under Sullivan - and, maybe to a lesser extent, Taylor.

 

Bischoff signed stars. He didn't book them.

[joeg]

Wasn't it also Sullivan's call to put the title on Benoit when he had 1 foot out the door in a last ditch effort to keep Benoit , Eddie, Douglas , Malenko, and everybody else who was threatening to leave happy? And didn't he push Benoit to cover up an HR complaint

[Johnny Sorrow]

It's fucking hilarious that some of you are getting worked up about Parv's verkackta "scores". "How can you give so and so a FOUR?" Haha. A dude makes up a scoring system and fucking OCD motherfuckers can't help but treat it as something real. 😂

Oh and Jake wasn't a star before WWF cause before that he was a guy nobody had ever heard of unless you lived in the areas that had the TV he was on or read the mags.