Your "Mount Rushmore" of All-Arounders

[JaymeFuture]

So for this weeks podcast, we're looking to debate a theoretical "Mt. Rushmore", based on being the best all-around performers ever, the most complete packages, of all time, and we'd like to get some feedback on the topic.

Typically a Mt. Rushmore discussion centres around fame and prominence, but if you applied the same idea to pure talent, and those who were great in every area of the field (whether it be in-ring work, promos, presence, effectiveness, etc), who would you put on your Mt. Rushmore of "All-arounders", and why?

As always, we'll be reading the best contributions on the show and crediting you accordingly. So which four guys do you think stood out as being the best, most flawless and well-rounded performers above the rest?

 

EDIT - Our show debating the Mount Rushmore of All-Arounders, featuring many of your contributions, is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/yff6gp/SCG_Radio_100_-_The_Wrestling_Mount_Rushmore_of_All_Arounders.mp3

[gordi]

The one guy I think should be carved into almost everyone's mountainside is Terry Funk. Can work as a good guy or bad guy, can dominate or work from underneath, can work a classical technical style or a distinctly non-classical very violent style, can cut a great promo, can be "the guy" can work singles or tags at the very highest level, makes everyone else look great...

 

...Lyger and Eddie come close in the "can do it all" department.

 

and he's nowhere near as well known, but Asian Coger/Kuuga can work as a top face or heel, is great in tags or singles, can get sympathy or cn just beat people down, can work garbage, high-flying, brawling, technical, comedy...

[InYourCase]

Liger, CIMA, Danielson, and Fujinami.

 

All have worked as top heels and babyfaces (I'll give Fujinami heel credit for his WAR run). I think all three check off the box for singles/tags/trios work. All have worked with great longevity, and I'm higher on Fujinami's 90s work than probably anyone, so they all check off being great young and old workers. Three of them don't speak English, so I'll ignore promo work. They all have such a great presence. CIMA, by all accounts, is one of the most engaging wrestlers to watch in-person.

 

Of course, they're all great workers. Liger, Danielson, and Fujinami finished in my Top 20 for GWE and CIMA finished at 37. Some of the bests to ever step in the ring.

[Quentin Skinner]

Eddie Guerrero is the standout for something like this. Great slimy heel and could turn in to a sympathetic babyface on a dime. Could be a fantastic bully like in the Rey feuds and a top tier FIP facing JBL. Great tag worker. Great in mid card title matches. Great when they pushed him to the top of the card and I always thought Eddie was a very believable promo. I'd also throw in a Christian, Danielson, and maybe Hero for that last spot.

[JerryvonKramer]

Flair: Great heel, great face, GOAT worker, GOAT promo, exceptional charisma, worked as babyface ace and heel champion.

 

Terry Funk: Great heel, great face, GOAT worker, GOAT promo, exceptional charisma, worked as babyface ace and heel champion.

 

Eddie: Great heel, great face, very very great worker, exceptional charisma.

 

Fourth spot is harder. But I have to throw my boy Ted into the mix:

 

DiBiase: All-time great heel both in Mid-South and WWF, as a babyface involved in some all-time great angles (vs. Patterson in 79, best friend of JYD, vs. Freedbirds in GCW, vs. Flair / Murdoch in Mid-South, very very good worker, great charisma, exceptional "worker of skits", worked as heel champion. Sort of guy who is a B+ across the board in virtually every category.

 

However, I think he's probably trumped by:

 

Savage: Great heel, great face, tremendous worker, distinctive and entertaining promo, exceptional charisma

 

 

-------------

 

So I think my final Rushmore would be:

Ric Flair - Terry Funk - Randy Savage - Eddie Guerrero

 

That looks "right" to me.

[Loss]

I guess there are two ways to define an all-around type, and both have been used in this thread if you look at Case's post and JvK's post. It's an old conversation of course, but I still struggle with being fair to wrestlers from Japan and Mexico whose promos we can't understand. It means they can never be the greatest all-around performers unless we understand what they are saying, which seems discriminatory to me. At the same time, if we don't factor in promos, we are excluding something hugely significant in American wrestling. So what's the best way? Do you look at wrestlers who are versatile in the ring or do you look at wrestlers who can work and talk? Neither way seems fair, and so I get paralyzed.

[JerryvonKramer]

In this case the OP did specifically mention: "whether it be in-ring work, promos, presence, effectiveness, etc", so I took that as disqualifying Japanese workers. Even though Terry Funk's "babyface ace" run takes place in AJPW.

 

As an aside, I don't think the big hitters from Japan are necessarily great "all rounders" in any case. Kawada did Kawada, Misawa did Misawa, Jumbo did Jumbo etc., I don't see a huge amount of "all rounderness" in that. If you recall BIGLAV they all suffered quite badly in the "A" category, and that's partly because they don't have proper heels in Japan. Even "grumpy Jumbo" isn't *really* a heel.

[InYourCase]

I guess there are two ways to define an all-around type, and both have been used in this thread if you look at Case's post and JvK's post. It's an old conversation of course, but I still struggle with being fair to wrestlers from Japan and Mexico whose promos we can't understand. It means they can never be the greatest all-around performers unless we understand what they are saying, which seems discriminatory to me. At the same time, if we don't factor in promos, we are excluding something hugely significant in American wrestling. So what's the best way? Do you look at wrestlers who are versatile in the ring or do you look at wrestlers who can work and talk? Neither way seems fair, and so I get paralyzed.

I looked at it as wrestlers who are versatile in the ring. That's my natural inclination. When I discuss wrestling, I think about what's going on in the ring and how I want to be entertained.

 

I noticed the promo part of the prompt. I could've said Funk/Flair/Eddie/Danielson - those guys all work. Again, my mind just drifted towards great Japanese wrestlers and they all have such an amazing presence. I can't imagine someone like Liger is a bad promo. I know from people that speak Japanese and follow Dragon Gate religiously that CIMA is considered to be an excellent promo. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I watch almost all Dragon Gate promos and I never have any idea what they're saying (until I read the translations), but they are all engaging speakers. El Lindaman, CIMA, Shingo, Naruki Doi - they have a cadence and a presence that is unmatched by most American wrestlers.

 

I don't disagree with Parv. Maybe the Ted part, but hey, I don't get Ted.

[JerryvonKramer]

As an aside, do you see Danielson as a Flair / Funk / Eddie level promo? Do you think he had that level of charisma, star presence etc? How does he compare to Savage for that? Or how about just compared to Shawn?

 

Just interested, no particular strong feelings on it.

[Loss]

In this case the OP did specifically mention: "whether it be in-ring work, promos, presence, effectiveness, etc", so I took that as disqualifying Japanese workers. Even though Terry Funk's "babyface ace" run takes place in AJPW.

 

As an aside, I don't think the big hitters from Japan are necessarily great "all rounders" in any case. Kawada did Kawada, Misawa did Misawa, Jumbo did Jumbo etc., I don't see a huge amount of "all rounderness" in that. If you recall BIGLAV they all suffered quite badly in the "A" category, and that's partly because they don't have proper heels in Japan. Even "grumpy Jumbo" isn't *really* a heel.

 

Jushin Liger is a great babyface and heel, was a great young wrestler and is a great veteran, has worked great with and without a mask, could fly, could work the mat, could have great matches with heavyweights and juniors, could do great bloodbath brawls and great technical matches and could work great singles and tags. He has great charisma and personality, and he's also a tremendous technical wrestler. In terms of an all around package, there are few better. But if promos are a requirement, full stop, then Liger can never be placed there by English-speaking fans, nor could anyone else whose promos aren't in English. And that's the part that doesn't sit right with me -- it seems discriminatory.

[Matt D]

Negro Casas would have been my easy choice and that's without being able to hear him do promos. He has such a connection with the crowd, is so emotive and conscious of managing their behavior while in the ring, or in post-match antics, or even in his entrance, that I think it's a no-brainer. I kind of like Atlantis for this too.

 

I'd toss Mark Henry up there too actually. It's to be provocative to some degree, but it's also pretty much true. I have an easier time going with him than someone like Rey Mysterio.

[InYourCase]

As an aside, do you see Danielson as a Flair / Funk / Eddie level promo? Do you think he had that level of charisma, star presence etc? How does he compare to Savage for that? Or how about just compared to Shawn?

 

Just interested, no particular strong feelings on it.

In terms of star presence and charisma, I think he laps someone like Shawn. Savage is closer, but I also come from an era in which someone like Danielson, who presents himself as a more legitimate threat than someone like Savage resonates with me more than Savage's off-the-walls aspect or Shawn's...whatever. At his best, say a 2007 ROH show in the Hammerstein Ballroom, no one comes like a bigger star than Danielson. The Final Countdown, the streamers, the entrance, the intensity - that is professional wrestling how I like it. He is the man. I don't think he came across like a star the same way Cena does or Punk did during his WWE run, but he tried to present himself in a way that stayed true to himself, while also trying to morph into the WWE mold. He was goofy at times, but I can't put that on him.

 

Savage is a much better promo than him, but I'll take Danielson as a talker over someone like Michaels. I think Danielson at his best in WWE, when he was incorporating "Yes!" stuff but it wasn't smothering him, he was outstanding. He's a convincing talker. He's not a traditional wrestling promo guy and I like that. He has to ramble, he has to make himself laugh, but when he hits the lines he needs to it, no one in modern wrestling comes across as a more convincing character.

[Grimmas]

Negro Casas

Jushin Liger

Terry Funk

Daniel Bryan

 

all four were the best at working multiple styles as heels or faces. No matter what setting they were put in, they excelled.

[JerryvonKramer]

When Liam and the boys come to discuss Flair on the actual show, I want to draw their attention to four key moments when he was a babyface:

 

- Starrcade 83 in the angle vs. Race.

- feud against Terry Funk in 1989

- Starrcade 93 in the angle vs. Vader.

- 1998 in the promo on Eric Biscoff.

 

I'm pointing to them because I think it's easy to think of Ric as a career heel and forget about how great he was when he was put in major babyface roles. He has the real emotion and I think his ability to connect as a babyface is built on that genuine emotion. There aren't too many guys that have had it.

[InYourCase]

When Liam and the boys come to discuss Flair on the actual show, I want to draw their attention to four key moments when he was a babyface:

 

- Starrcade 83 in the angle vs. Race.

- feud against Terry Funk in 1989

- Starrcade 93 in the angle vs. Vader.

- 1998 in the promo on Eric Biscoff.

 

I'm pointing to them because I think it's easy to think of Ric as a career heel and forget about how great he was when he was put in major babyface roles. He has the real emotion and I think his ability to connect as a babyface is built on that genuine emotion. There aren't too many guys that have had it.

Hot take but I prefer Flair as a bayface. Him working underneath vs. Vader are my personal favorite Flair performances

[gordi]

they don't have proper heels in Japan.

Good Lord. SUWA! Kuuga, Kaientai, Aja Kong, L.C.O., Dump Matsumoto, Bull Nakano, Heisei Ishingun, Ishingun Gundan, Abdullah the Butcher, Big Boss MA-G-MA, Devil Masami, Minoru Suzuki, Jado and Gedo, Toru Yano, G.B.H., Shin Kokusai Gundan, Blood Generation, Bullet Club, RO&D, CHAOS, Fred Blassie...

 

Really... NONE of them have ever been "proper heels?" I guess if indies don't count, or Joshi, or classic puroresu, or current puroresu... I guess if you just count peak AJPW and ignore Fuchi...

 

No... that statement is just indefensible.

 

Hopefully you were joking.

[El-P]

Ah, the idea that there are no legit heels in Japan is hilarious. LCO beatdowns make the Horsemen look like pussies (to use a very 80's vernacular, pardon me people).

 

As for the Rushmore of "can do it all on all front", here we go :

 

_Terry Funk

 

_Jushin Liger

 

_Akira Hokuto

 

_Barry Windham

 

All pretty much clear as cristal.

[gordi]

Windham is a good choice. So effective in so many roles.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

they don't have proper heels in Japan.

Good Lord. SUWA! Kuuga, Kaientai, Aja Kong, L.C.O., Dump Matsumoto, Bull Nakano, Heisei Ishingun, Ishingun Gundan, Abdullah the Butcher, Big Boss MA-G-MA, Devil Masami, Minoru Suzuki, Jado and Gedo, Toru Yano, G.B.H., Shin Kokusai Gundan, Blood Generation, Bullet Club, RO&D, CHAOS, Fred Blassie...

 

Really... NONE of them have ever been "proper heels?" I guess if indies don't count, or Joshi, or classic puroresu, or current puroresu... I guess if you just count peak AJPW and ignore Fuchi...

 

No... that statement is just indefensible.

 

Hopefully you were joking.

 

Guys like Abby and Sheik, yes, proper heels. I was thinking more about the native AJPW guys (i.e. who might legitimately make a Rushmore).

 

Ishin Gundan is an interesting test case. Was Riki Choshu a heel? Was Tenryu a heel? Were Kawada and Taue heels? Was Jumbo a heel in 91-2? I guess the heart of the answer to the question lies in that. To me they don't seem like "proper heels", they always have sections of the crowd cheering them, they don't obviously rule break like someone like The Sheik would, even if Jumbo / Fuchi might resort to using a chair once in a while. It would be great to have a Japanese speaker talk about how it was put over on commentary. I don't get hero / villain from any of that stuff, more "clash of ideologies". If someone wants to argue those are all "heel" runs, I could see that. But they don't feel like heels in the conventional sense.

[gordi]

So, you weren't joking. Yikes.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't doubt that any of the people you listed are heels and proper ones. They obviously have had proper heels in Japan and the statement needed some qualification.

 

But look at the specific questions I asked. If you think it's a no brainer that all those were heel runs, I can see that, it's cool. I don't see them as being obviously villainous in the way that, say, Sheik and Abby were in the 70s. Was Choshu a villain? I don't really think so.

[El-P]

You obviously don't see the wink in japanese pro-wrestling I guess.

BTW, Ric Flair was also cheered whether he was a heel or a face after a while.

 

Atsushi Onita : greatest babyface ever switched to a guy his own audience couldn't stand.

[JerryvonKramer]

If anyone who can speak Japanese reads this, I'd love to know the answer to the bolded:

 

Ishin Gundan is an interesting test case. Was Riki Choshu a heel? Was Tenryu a heel? Were Kawada and Taue heels? Was Jumbo a heel in 91-2? I guess the heart of the answer to the question lies in that. To me they don't seem like "proper heels", they always have sections of the crowd cheering them, they don't obviously rule break like someone like The Sheik would, even if Jumbo / Fuchi might resort to using a chair once in a while. It would be great to have a Japanese speaker talk about how it was put over on commentary. I don't get hero / villain from any of that stuff, more "clash of ideologies". If someone wants to argue those are all "heel" runs, I could see that. But they don't feel like heels in the conventional sense.

[JKWebb]

1. Savage - Unique - Charisma - Promos/wrestling/and look - popularity and ability to get over with anyone watching (including people that don't follow wrestling closely)

2. Flair - Best all Around

3. Funk - The Journeyman - excelled at top levels everywhere

4. since it's my Rushmore, I'll put who I want - Nick Bockwinkel - Maybe the smartest wrestler I've ever seen, and best all around worker ever in the ring - he could do anything - plus he was a good with promos and had great charisma as well

 

I do think it would Arn Anderson would look really cool etched in stone with those big glasses on.

[Cap]

Ohh God... this has already hurt my brain. I sort of informally demarcated a lot of the Lucha guys and japanese guys who would be on this list if it were framed differently. I just think that without speaking the language I can't get the nuance I'd want for a top 4 with regard to the character articulation here.

 

Ric Flair: Resume speaks for itself, truly elite as both a heel and a face, top tier in ring and on the mic.

Terry Funk: Maybe the most pro wrestling wrestler ever. A pure entertainer that could do anything he wanted in the ring

Eddie Guerrero: I don't think anyone touches Eddie at his absolute best (though it was too rare). He could be the most lovable face or the most despicable heel. Wonderful balance.

Bryan Danielson: Exceptionally underrated heel/tweener work, especially as ROH champion, where he really helped got a lot of guys over. In ring there are few better and his baby face run to Mania was all time stuff.