Favourites that you soured on...

[cpst]

"Bob Holly is better than Takada"

What's the story behind this one?

[cad]

I used to think that Blue Panther the man among rudos, but the list of really good Blue Panther matches is virtually the same as it was ten, fifteen years ago. The only new additions are matches he's had since then. Everyone else from his era has added to their resumes with old stuff that's popped up on Youtube.

[elliott]

Mitsuharu Misawa and Daniel Bryan. More on that later.

 

So, its later now. I almost don't know which one to start with. I flipped a coin. Bryan goes first.

 

Ok, its still tough. So, here's the deal, I still absolutely love a lot of early indy American Dragon/Danielson. I think the Low Ki matches absolutely hold up as great matches (I haven't rewatched KOI, but I've watched the Super 8, Steamboat Match & Submission match within the last 3 months). I rewatched those on a Low-Ki binge and came away thinking "Yeah, I prefer Low-Ki but I'm not willing to say he's absolutely better than Bryan in this era." Bryan was a lot more polished and while Ki was as well in many ways, I think there's a lot more untapped potential watching young Low-Ki than Young Bryan. Young Bryan was basically already a great worker and you could tell he was going to get even better but you sort of knew what he was going to be (as a worker, not as a star). Young Ki, gosh that dude was just overflowing with potential and he could have done a lot more not just as a star but as a worker. The early Bryan matches with Spanky and Regal I think hold up as well. Stuff like that I really enjoy. The ROH stuff really wore me down though. For every match I liked, I found another 2-3 that I just couldn't get through. I thought the Nigel matches were terrible matches. He's maybe the best example of a wrestler where I like what he does, I like long portions of his matches, but by the end of them I find myself thinking "I hate this and just want it to end." The criticisms that people have lobbed at that mid 00s indy run of going eight to forty minutes too long is a very real thing. Was it ambitious? Absolutely. Impressive? Sure on some level. Was he having MOTYC's every show. FUCK NO. I started to like him again towards the end of the decade when he was popping up in Evolve and getting away from the "Super Indy" style of wrestling and back to a more William Regal combined with BattlArts stylistic feel.

 

I imagine when people look back at his WWE run they're going to talk about how wasted he was for the first few years working guys like Miz or Dolph Ziggler or Ted Dibiase. Uh, here's the thing, that's Bryan at his peak to me. Carrying the Miz in 2010 to a legit very good match based completely around submission work? That is impressive. Getting very good matches out of Ted Dibiase? This dude figured out how to have a compelling 3 way "submissions count anywhere" match with Miz & John Morrison? As the WWE run continued, I think he got worse and worse in some ways. He was still having good-great matches. The Sheamus 2/3 Falls match was a legit great match. The Cena match is my pick for the best match in the history of the company. The HHH match is so far and away HHH's best match its comical. There's a lot of entertaining stuff and he's very consistent. I ranked this dude in the top 30 for my GWE poll almost entirely on the strength of that WWE run. But as I was watching a ton of Modern wrestling post project (Got and watched all of Will's MOTYC sets and poked around the internet for other stuff as well), I realized that Bryan in WWE was an experiment to answer the question of "Would KENTA be good if all of this matches were 10-15 minutes instead of 25-45 minutes?" Because that's what Bryan evolved into. He slowly just became the US version of KENTA only working 1/3 as long. The matches were certainly better than KENTA's nightmarish marathon matches and I think he still had some holy shit level great matches. But by and large I'm less impressed with that WWE run after having to sit through all those KENTA matches.

 

One final note, and I'll kinda use this to bridge over to Misawa...I thought that WM IC Title match where he and Ziggler (I think it was Dolph) were doing the dueling headbutts on top of the ladder that everyone dug at the time was one of the dumbest fucking spots I've ever seen. I care about adaptability in a wrestler, maybe not as much as Matt as evidenced by our Stan Hansen discussions (which Matt is obviously wrong about ), but it is important. It is a big reason Terry Funk & El Satanico are my #1 & #2. Coming back after major, career threatening neck surgery and a shocking history of concussions only to pull out a spot like those dueling headbutts just to pop the crowd is so fucking stupid that I can't even believe it. In general, I think Bryan was a great wrestler, but I'd have him more around 75-80 now instead of top 30.

 

Jumping over to Misawa. That's sort of my biggest criticism of All Japan in general and Misawa specifically. I think the repeated headdropping spots are awful. Again, I get the appeal and I was right there with everyone else. But the more I think about it and the more I watch stuf like Dick Murdoch vs The Nightmare, the deeper down the list MIsawa falls. Jerry Lawler being able to craft compelling matches around hide the chain spots or Terry Funk getting mad because Rick Martel is elbow dropping his cowboy hat are much more impressive than "Ok, you dump me on my head for 25 minutes over and over again and I'll eventually come back and kill you" which I think is is an incredibly lazy and stupid way to build a match and as the years wore on, you could see the effect it was having. Not just on Misawa, but the matches. His top rope splash and facelock submission were once awesome nearfalls that became less and less relevant until they became basically throwaway spots that meant less than Steve Austin flipping guys off or The People's Elbow.

 

Looking at his career more specifically, was Misawa one of the 250 best wrestlers of the 1980s? Tiger Mask II didn't really suck, but its not something I would point to as a generally great part of his career (important yet, match quality wise, eh). Of all the next generation wrestlers in All Japan, Kawada & Kobashi "figured it out" sooner than Misawa and became great wrestlers by 92 (digging further, Jumbo became great quicker than Misawa, Jun did, its hard to say with Taue but I'd lean towards yes as well, only Tenryu took as long/longer to figure it out than MIsawa, but Tenryu proceeded to peak much higher and much longer and was much smarter in the ring than MIsawa). When Misawa finally caught up, in 94/95, the All Japan stuff started to fall apart for me. Really, it starts to fall apart as early as 1993 at points. There is some great stuff later on to be sure I still like. 1/20/97 still somehow, someway works for me where almost every other big All Japan match post 6/3/94 is a chore to get through and leaves me rolling my eyes. Oddly enough if a lot of those matches were chopped down to 18-20 and the first big headrop or the lariat or whatever ends the match, I might think a different way entirely (all that Kawada needed to be in the running for best ever was working New Japan instead of All Japan imo). I might still think those dudes were the best wrestlers. Similar to the Rey/Juv point I made in the other thread, the initial praise about those guys often surrounded the pace they worked and how they would get into the nearfalls "and keep going and going and going" and it was beyond what any heavyweights had done before. Well, the "going and going and going" part is absolutely what causes me to roll my eyes.

 

This is about to be one of those "Way harsh, Tai" moments, but to be perfectly blunt, if you completely run out of ideas to pop the crowd and get heat for your matches unless you're getting dropped onto your head over and over for years in every match to the point where you end up getting essentially decapitated in the ring, I can't think of you as anything other than a dumb wrestler and dumber person. He could have been one of the 5 best wrestlers ever. He had the talent but I don't think he had the smarts. I know this paragraph is awful and probably offensive, but I can't look at this guy's matches and think he's a smart wrestler.

 

I did a post GWE "gut reaction" sort of list about a month ago and both guys still made my top 100. Misawa was 77 & Bryan 78. If I did it again, I can't imagine Misawa making my top 100. Bryan almost certainly would still be top 100.

 

So yeah. Sorry. I'm going to go run away and hide now as you all destroy me.

[Matt D]

Elliott's post (strong as always) made me revisit the the Bryan GWE thread. It was really good at times (even if personally, I didn't back my stuff up enough).

[Microstatistics]

 

Mitsuharu Misawa and Daniel Bryan. More on that later.

 

So, its later now. I almost don't know which one to start with. I flipped a coin. Bryan goes first.

 

Ok, its still tough. So, here's the deal, I still absolutely love a lot of early indy American Dragon/Danielson. I think the Low Ki matches absolutely hold up as great matches (I haven't rewatched KOI, but I've watched the Super 8, Steamboat Match & Submission match within the last 3 months). I rewatched those on a Low-Ki binge and came away thinking "Yeah, I prefer Low-Ki but I'm not willing to say he's absolutely better than Bryan in this era." Bryan was a lot more polished and while Ki was as well in many ways, I think there's a lot more untapped potential watching young Low-Ki than Young Bryan. Young Bryan was basically already a great worker and you could tell he was going to get even better but you sort of knew what he was going to be (as a worker, not as a star). Young Ki, gosh that dude was just overflowing with potential and he could have done a lot more not just as a star but as a worker. The early Bryan matches with Spanky and Regal I think hold up as well. Stuff like that I really enjoy. The ROH stuff really wore me down though. For every match I liked, I found another 2-3 that I just couldn't get through. I thought the Nigel matches were terrible matches. He's maybe the best example of a wrestler where I like what he does, I like long portions of his matches, but by the end of them I find myself thinking "I hate this and just want it to end." The criticisms that people have lobbed at that mid 00s indy run of going eight to forty minutes too long is a very real thing. Was it ambitious? Absolutely. Impressive? Sure on some level. Was he having MOTYC's every show. FUCK NO. I started to like him again towards the end of the decade when he was popping up in Evolve and getting away from the "Super Indy" style of wrestling and back to a more William Regal combined with BattlArts stylistic feel.

 

I imagine when people look back at his WWE run they're going to talk about how wasted he was for the first few years working guys like Miz or Dolph Ziggler or Ted Dibiase. Uh, here's the thing, that's Bryan at his peak to me. Carrying the Miz in 2010 to a legit very good match based completely around submission work? That is impressive. Getting very good matches out of Ted Dibiase? This dude figured out how to have a compelling 3 way "submissions count anywhere" match with Miz & John Morrison? As the WWE run continued, I think he got worse and worse in some ways. He was still having good-great matches. The Sheamus 2/3 Falls match was a legit great match. The Cena match is my pick for the best match in the history of the company. The HHH match is so far and away HHH's best match its comical. There's a lot of entertaining stuff and he's very consistent. I ranked this dude in the top 30 for my GWE poll almost entirely on the strength of that WWE run. But as I was watching a ton of Modern wrestling post project (Got and watched all of Will's MOTYC sets and poked around the internet for other stuff as well), I realized that Bryan in WWE was an experiment to answer the question of "Would KENTA be good if all of this matches were 10-15 minutes instead of 25-45 minutes?" Because that's what Bryan evolved into. He slowly just became the US version of KENTA only working 1/3 as long. The matches were certainly better than KENTA's nightmarish marathon matches and I think he still had some holy shit level great matches. But by and large I'm less impressed with that WWE run after having to sit through all those KENTA matches.

 

One final note, and I'll kinda use this to bridge over to Misawa...I thought that WM IC Title match where he and Ziggler (I think it was Dolph) were doing the dueling headbutts on top of the ladder that everyone dug at the time was one of the dumbest fucking spots I've ever seen. I care about adaptability in a wrestler, maybe not as much as Matt as evidenced by our Stan Hansen discussions (which Matt is obviously wrong about ), but it is important. It is a big reason Terry Funk & El Satanico are my #1 & #2. Coming back after major, career threatening neck surgery and a shocking history of concussions only to pull out a spot like those dueling headbutts just to pop the crowd is so fucking stupid that I can't even believe it. In general, I think Bryan was a great wrestler, but I'd have him more around 75-80 now instead of top 30.

 

Jumping over to Misawa. That's sort of my biggest criticism of All Japan in general and Misawa specifically. I think the repeated headdropping spots are awful. Again, I get the appeal and I was right there with everyone else. But the more I think about it and the more I watch stuf like Dick Murdoch vs The Nightmare, the deeper down the list MIsawa falls. Jerry Lawler being able to craft compelling matches around hide the chain spots or Terry Funk getting mad because Rick Martel is elbow dropping his cowboy hat are much more impressive than "Ok, you dump me on my head for 25 minutes over and over again and I'll eventually come back and kill you" which I think is is an incredibly lazy and stupid way to build a match and as the years wore on, you could see the effect it was having. Not just on Misawa, but the matches. His top rope splash and facelock submission were once awesome nearfalls that became less and less relevant until they became basically throwaway spots that meant less than Steve Austin flipping guys off or The People's Elbow.

 

Looking at his career more specifically, was Misawa one of the 250 best wrestlers of the 1980s? Tiger Mask II didn't really suck, but its not something I would point to as a generally great part of his career (important yet, match quality wise, eh). Of all the next generation wrestlers in All Japan, Kawada & Kobashi "figured it out" sooner than Misawa and became great wrestlers by 92 (digging further, Jumbo became great quicker than Misawa, Jun did, its hard to say with Taue but I'd lean towards yes as well, only Tenryu took as long/longer to figure it out than MIsawa, but Tenryu proceeded to peak much higher and much longer and was much smarter in the ring than MIsawa). When Misawa finally caught up, in 94/95, the All Japan stuff started to fall apart for me. Really, it starts to fall apart as early as 1993 at points. There is some great stuff later on to be sure I still like. 1/20/97 still somehow, someway works for me where almost every other big All Japan match post 6/3/94 is a chore to get through and leaves me rolling my eyes. Oddly enough if a lot of those matches were chopped down to 18-20 and the first big headrop or the lariat or whatever ends the match, I might think a different way entirely (all that Kawada needed to be in the running for best ever was working New Japan instead of All Japan imo). I might still think those dudes were the best wrestlers. Similar to the Rey/Juv point I made in the other thread, the initial praise about those guys often surrounded the pace they worked and how they would get into the nearfalls "and keep going and going and going" and it was beyond what any heavyweights had done before. Well, the "going and going and going" part is absolutely what causes me to roll my eyes.

 

This is about to be one of those "Way harsh, Tai" moments, but to be perfectly blunt, if you completely run out of ideas to pop the crowd and get heat for your matches unless you're getting dropped onto your head over and over for years in every match to the point where you end up getting essentially decapitated in the ring, I can't think of you as anything other than a dumb wrestler and dumber person. He could have been one of the 5 best wrestlers ever. He had the talent but I don't think he had the smarts. I know this paragraph is awful and probably offensive, but I can't look at this guy's matches and think he's a smart wrestler.

 

I did a post GWE "gut reaction" sort of list about a month ago and both guys still made my top 100. Misawa was 77 & Bryan 78. If I did it again, I can't imagine Misawa making my top 100. Bryan almost certainly would still be top 100.

 

So yeah. Sorry. I'm going to go run away and hide now as you all destroy me.

 

 

Some really interesting thoughts on Bryan and Misawa

 

After checking out all phases of his career post-GWE, Bryan is someone I regret not putting in my Top 10. He is the best US wrestler ever in my eyes. Early Bryan is great, 2007-2010 hybrid Bryan is fantastic (maybe his peak), his WWE run is superb. Mid-2000's ROH Bryan is terrific but flawed. I agree some matches were waaaaaay too long, had more "excess" than late All Japan and selling could iffy. But the general quality of matches, his versatility and adaptability to different opponents could not be argued. I also agree he could have made some better decisions in the WWE at the end given his health condition but that didn't really affect the quality of his matches so I won't ding him for that

 

For Misawa, I agree his 80s is ok but nothing special. I also agree that until 1993 or so he was the 3rd or 4th best guy of the corners (though still really good). But peak Misawa (let's say lets say late 93 to 1/20/1997) is absolutely undeniable where he was maybe the best wrestler in the world and had an aura like no other. Based on Jvk's BIGLAV Intangibles he would be a slam dunk 10/10. I disagree about the headdropping/excess which didn't really get out of hand until mid-97 and he was still able to craft great matches even with it (IMO) so I had no problem with it. I can definitely see the "he wasn't smart" argument for his post prime. He could be lazy where he would let his opponent brutally destroy him for 80% of the match, then he would make a comeback and win. But he still had that presence and aura and still sold well and could have compelling matches (IMO) even with the over the top headdropping so I wouldn't criticize him as a worker for that, even if that style wasn't particularly prudent health-wise and eventually killed him.

[elliott]

After checking out all phases of his career post-GWE, Bryan is someone I regret not putting in my Top 10. He is the best US wrestler ever in my eyes. Early Bryan is great, 2007-2010 hybrid Bryan is fantastic (maybe his peak), his WWE run is superb. Mid-2000's ROH Bryan is terrific but flawed. I agree some matches were waaaaaay too long, had more "excess" than late All Japan and selling could iffy. But the general quality of matches, his versatility and adaptability to different opponents could not be argued. I also agree he could have made some better decisions in the WWE at the end given his health condition but that didn't really affect the quality of his matches so I won't ding him for that

 

 

I think his peak is probably 2010-the end in my eyes. I think he definitely has some great stuff in between his days as a great young wrestler and his WWE run, but I thought the ROH stuff I watched was really hit or miss. Its a really ambitious run to be sure and impressive in that regard and also in the fact that he always worked his fucking ass off and you've got to respect that. His work ethic, ambition, and such a wide base of knowledge led to a situation where when he nailed it, he fucking nailed it and had some really great matches. But when he missed you're left with something like the Nigel series that I know has its fans but I genuinely hated. And that was long match after long match which is going to irritate me more than a few bad or average 15 minute long matches. I'm willing to lay a large part of the blame on Nigel, but there's other stuff like vs Tyler Black & Davey that I also really didn't like.

 

I do like his WWE run quite a bit. I think he is awesome when he first shows up and making MIz work a match like he's Munenori Sawa. Shit like that is more impressive to me than 40 minutes of Nigel. People should really go back and rewatch those very early Bryan in WWE matches because they're fascinating. I think he generally kills is in WWE. My KENTA Lite criticism isn't a real criticism actually. He's much better than KENTA and generally has terrific chemistry/matches with Sheamus, Henry, Punk, Orton, and really anybody. I think he crafted an all time great hot tag formula. I found him much more consistent in WWE than on the indy's because he was able to figure out a way to fit his wide array of wrestling knowledge into the framework of the WWE house style. When left to his own devices he can sometimes deliver an incredible match and sometimes an utterly soul crushing match.

 

The worst part about the bad matches (like again the whole Nigel series) is that you can see something great hiding underneath all the shit trying to get out. But there's just too much shit. I can't really blame them as people or anything like that. Their fans paying to go to the shows loved it and wanted to see those epic 30 minute matches with a million nearfalls. That doesn't mean I have to like it after the fact

 

My comparison to KENTA is troubling to me because it seems like between basically stealing that guy's entire...literally everything...but when you combine that with his working in the WWE formula, it just seems like he wasn't his own man anymore. Guys like Rey Jr, Eddy, or Benoit, even when they went to WWE and had to adapt their styles to to the framework of the WWE style, they still managed to feel like Rey Jr or Eddy. They stood out. Daniel Bryan, really after a certain point he just felt like KENTA adapting his style to fit the framework of the WWE house style and still managed to feel like KENTA...but was actually Daniel Bryan. Almost like Dick Slater ripping off Terry Funk but the opposite of that entirely because Daniel Bryan figured out how to be KENTA better than KENTA. I thought early on in WWE he really stood out as being this totally unique worker and it was awesome watching him try to hold onto that pseudo BattlArts style he was working and making it work in WWE while trying to figure out what was going to work for him on the big stage. And eventually I guess he's like "eh, fuck it, I'll just do what KENTA does" but you can do that shit in 12 minutes. 37 minutes is another thing entirely. So its a backhanded compliment maybe? Something like that.

 

I don't know what to do with the end of his career in a lot of ways to be honest. . Should he have adapted to work a safer style that would perhaps prolong his career? Yes absolutely. We all know he was an awesome mat worker who could do compelling shit on the mat in a Regal sort of way. Regal's opponent didn't actually have to be all that good a mat worker for him to figure out how to cool interesting shit with him.

 

But the unknown question is when it was too late for Bryan in terms of changing his style for his long term benefit? Given that it was literally right after Mania XXX which was his crowning night in the business, you have to assume he needed to change his style up not just after coming back from surgeries, but way before that. Presuming he was reluctant to change up his style because he was having his greatest professional success, I totally understand that and hindsight is 20/20 and we all have different perspectives. It sucks that his career ended when it did because I think we were yet to see the best he was capable of.

 

Daniel Bryan retired at 34.

Flair turned 34 in 1983

Terry Funk turned 34 in 1978

Hansen turned 34 in 1983

 

That's the top 3 in GWE. Bryan retired at an age when most wrestlers are just starting to have their peak. I don't think we actually got to see his peak. I mean we did based on his actual career we can point to it and say "This is his peak." But I think if Bryan didn't get hurt, we were about to see the best run of his career. All time great match against Cena at SummerSlam, series with Orton which was full of terrific matches and "Fuck you" finishes, that Bray Wyatt match that was so good there's not another Bray singles match in the same universe, all building to the zenith that was the HHH match. The Kane match was shockingly good. And then poof. Gone. The Reigns match was fucking awesome when he came back but there he is the next month doing the dumbest spot ever and he's then gone. I mean, Cena match, Orton series, Bray match, HHH match, Reigns match were insanely great. He was about to have his real peak.

 

None of that last part is to denigrate him as a worker. I just want to make that clear. Its just to say it sucks what happened. Now officially every internet wrestling fan has made a sad about Daniel Bryan retiring post.

 

If I had to explain my feelings on Bryan Danielson the professional wrestler in one catchy, easy to remember phrase it would be: I think Bryan Danielson was a great wrestler but I liked him more as KENTA in WWE than as Bryan Danielson on the indies.

 

Dear god, no, I'm moving on to Misawa...

 

For Misawa, I agree his 80s is ok but nothing special. I also agree that until 1993 or so he was the 3rd or 4th best guy of the corners (though still really good). But peak Misawa (let's say lets say late 93 to 1/20/1997) is absolutely undeniable where he was maybe the best wrestler in the world and had an aura like no other. Based on Jvk's BIGLAV Intangibles he would be a slam dunk 10/10. I disagree about the headdropping/excess which didn't really get out of hand until mid-97 and he was still able to craft great matches even with it (IMO) so I had no problem with it. I can definitely see the "he wasn't smart" argument for his post prime. He could be lazy where he would let his opponent brutally destroy him for 80% of the match, then he would make a comeback and win. But he still had that presence and aura and still sold well and could have compelling matches (IMO) even with the over the top headdropping so I wouldn't criticize him as a worker for that, even if that style wasn't particularly prudent health-wise and eventually killed him.

 

 

I deny it! All of it! Invoking Biglav and bringing that back into my life only makes it worse! (these are jokes...just to be clear)

 

Its kinda funny that we agree he was the 3 or 4th best pillar through 93, because thinking more about it, there's more Misawa singles matches I like from 92/93 than post 95. I dig the first MIsawa vs Kawada match. There's a champion carnival match from 3/7/93 between the two that I'd never seen before I watched it for GWE when I was watching All Japan stuff and I loved it. Everyone says they didn't match up well, but I enjoyed his 92 match with Hansen. I like the Jumbo matches too. The further away he gets from playing underdog against Hansen & Jumbo and "The Man" against Kobashi & Kawada, the less I like the matches and a lot of that has to do with his (and Kobashi's, and Baba, and other factors) pushing the style in a direction that I tended to not like. That's a general rule but not a 100% rule. And honestly the very peak best stuff where they were really starting to dip their toes into the stuff I didn't like but were still holding on to the prior shit I did like a little more, that's when they had the best stuff. Something like 6/3/94? Absolutely one of the best matches ever. Misawa vs Williams from I think September 94 (the TC CHange) is great. I love the two famous Taue matches from 95 and the Carny match against Kawada where he breaks his face was actually probably great because he broke his face. But Misawa vs Kawada as a single falls apart after 94. I cannot explain how I have a weird problem with All Japan being too big and ridiculous and still like 1/20/97 but I love that shit to this day. I can't do Misawa vs Kobashi after that. Or any Misawa vs Akiyama match. I'm struggling to think of a single Misawa match after 1/97 that I really like, and I feel like there's at least one with Takayama but I honestly can't think of another. There are a number of tag matches of his I like actually even going into his NOAH days. But I'm struggling to think of big singles matches I've enjoyed on any level. Its not just MIsawa. Its Kobashi and Kawada too. Less so Taue because I can point to a few more things I like with Taue. It was really funny when I saw Dylan saying WWE did "Self Conscious Epics" because I thought that exact same thing rewatching that stuff I just wasn't really ready to talk about it because I was taken aback by the fact that these matches I always thought were great were suddenly matches I was rolling my eyes at all these ridiculous spots. I kinda feel like I get what OJ talks about when he says he's finished with a wrestler. He always referenced Bret or Hokuto and now I get it. I don't really want to watch Misawa vs Kawada against because every time I do I like it a little less and the wrestlers annoy me a little more and I'd rather like more wrestlers than less and if that means not watching their matches in order to still like them, so be it.

 

I think most people would say late 93-1/97 is a fair, if not conservative description of is peak. I think I'd agree with that. Maybe pushing it into early 94, but lets say late late 93...That's not a very long peak is it? 3 1/2 years? I mean. That's pretty good. Daniel Bryan might have just had a decade plus as the best in the world. Ric Flair's 80s? I don't think that Misawa was the best in the world from late 93-1/97. I've said several times I think Tamura was the best wrestler in the world from 94-99, and there are several others I'd rank above MIsawa during this time period. Anyway, my point just objectively, is that 3 1/2 years isn't all that long

 

I agree with you about Misawa having a great presence and I'd agree that he'd be 10/10 in that wack system. Shit, I think I argued with Parv for it. But Hashimoto and Tenryu were just as compelling chopping each other to death as Misawa/Kobashi were dropping each other on their heads, you know, if not more so.

[JerryvonKramer]

Age comparison point on Bryan is interesting.

 

Having watched all that AJ stuff pretty recently, the head-dropping complaint seems a little overplayed to me as a criticism especially prior to 1997, and I see it brought up against Misawa more than I do Kawada, even though Kawada is as guilty of it as anyone else -- and is often the guy taking the sickest spots. Why do people think the head dropping is a charge brought against Misawa more than Kawada? Is it because of the way he died?

 

I think peak AJPW from 90-97 is particularly marked by its layered psychology, where that comes from exactly we've been discussing, but I wouldn't want us to lapse into "there are head drops therefore this shit is stupid" territory, when I'm not sure how many matches in history build on each other as that series does. I just think we should remember why they have their reputation, and I don't think it's because of the head drops. The highly touted matches are mostly masterpieces of psychology, and building to a finish. The big huge landmark moments like the Tiger Drivers or the first time Taue gets a pin, or whatever, stay with you.

 

The most egregious head dropping I've seen probably comes in Steve Williams matches of the period.

 

Elliott's perspective always interesting, and I'd be really interested to hear from Chad on this as someone who voted Misawa #1 and Tamara in his top 10.

[soup23]

 

 

For Misawa, I agree his 80s is ok but nothing special. I also agree that until 1993 or so he was the 3rd or 4th best guy of the corners (though still really good). But peak Misawa (let's say lets say late 93 to 1/20/1997) is absolutely undeniable where he was maybe the best wrestler in the world and had an aura like no other. Based on Jvk's BIGLAV Intangibles he would be a slam dunk 10/10. I disagree about the headdropping/excess which didn't really get out of hand until mid-97 and he was still able to craft great matches even with it (IMO) so I had no problem with it. I can definitely see the "he wasn't smart" argument for his post prime. He could be lazy where he would let his opponent brutally destroy him for 80% of the match, then he would make a comeback and win. But he still had that presence and aura and still sold well and could have compelling matches (IMO) even with the over the top headdropping so I wouldn't criticize him as a worker for that, even if that style wasn't particularly prudent health-wise and eventually killed him.

 

 

I deny it! All of it! Invoking Biglav and bringing that back into my life only makes it worse! (these are jokes...just to be clear)

 

Its kinda funny that we agree he was the 3 or 4th best pillar through 93, because thinking more about it, there's more Misawa singles matches I like from 92/93 than post 95. I dig the first MIsawa vs Kawada match. There's a champion carnival match from 3/7/93 between the two that I'd never seen before I watched it for GWE when I was watching All Japan stuff and I loved it. Everyone says they didn't match up well, but I enjoyed his 92 match with Hansen. I like the Jumbo matches too. The further away he gets from playing underdog against Hansen & Jumbo and "The Man" against Kobashi & Kawada, the less I like the matches and a lot of that has to do with his (and Kobashi's, and Baba, and other factors) pushing the style in a direction that I tended to not like. That's a general rule but not a 100% rule. And honestly the very peak best stuff where they were really starting to dip their toes into the stuff I didn't like but were still holding on to the prior shit I did like a little more, that's when they had the best stuff. Something like 6/3/94? Absolutely one of the best matches ever. Misawa vs Williams from I think September 94 (the TC CHange) is great. I love the two famous Taue matches from 95 and the Carny match against Kawada where he breaks his face was actually probably great because he broke his face. But Misawa vs Kawada as a single falls apart after 94. I cannot explain how I have a weird problem with All Japan being too big and ridiculous and still like 1/20/97 but I love that shit to this day. I can't do Misawa vs Kobashi after that. Or any Misawa vs Akiyama match. I'm struggling to think of a single Misawa match after 1/97 that I really like, and I feel like there's at least one with Takayama but I honestly can't think of another. There are a number of tag matches of his I like actually even going into his NOAH days. But I'm struggling to think of big singles matches I've enjoyed on any level. Its not just MIsawa. Its Kobashi and Kawada too. Less so Taue because I can point to a few more things I like with Taue. It was really funny when I saw Dylan saying WWE did "Self Conscious Epics" because I thought that exact same thing rewatching that stuff I just wasn't really ready to talk about it because I was taken aback by the fact that these matches I always thought were great were suddenly matches I was rolling my eyes at all these ridiculous spots. I kinda feel like I get what OJ talks about when he says he's finished with a wrestler. He always referenced Bret or Hokuto and now I get it. I don't really want to watch Misawa vs Kawada against because every time I do I like it a little less and the wrestlers annoy me a little more and I'd rather like more wrestlers than less and if that means not watching their matches in order to still like them, so be it.

 

I think most people would say late 93-1/97 is a fair, if not conservative description of is peak. I think I'd agree with that. Maybe pushing it into early 94, but lets say late late 93...That's not a very long peak is it? 3 1/2 years? I mean. That's pretty good. Daniel Bryan might have just had a decade plus as the best in the world. Ric Flair's 80s? I don't think that Misawa was the best in the world from late 93-1/97. I've said several times I think Tamura was the best wrestler in the world from 94-99, and there are several others I'd rank above MIsawa during this time period. Anyway, my point just objectively, is that 3 1/2 years isn't all that long

 

I agree with you about Misawa having a great presence and I'd agree that he'd be 10/10 in that wack system. Shit, I think I argued with Parv for it. But Hashimoto and Tenryu were just as compelling chopping each other to death as Misawa/Kobashi were dropping each other on their heads, you know, if not more so.

 

 

 

All of this is mostly a point of comparison. I do think "working smart" is something that needs to be fleshed out more. What exactly does it mean? Is it from a drawing standpoint, a sustainability, a adaptation to a style that favors longevity?

 

Even with all of those, you hear names like Lawler, Funk, Bockwinkel, Hansen, Tenryu as the pillars of longevity. I am purposely excluding lucha workers here because I actually think they personify a longevity that can be both artistically and financially successful.

 

In regards to the others we have Lawler. Lawler has had numerous great matches in the 25 years since 1990, but I would say his level of great matches is comparable to Misawa from 2000-2009 for me just on quantity. Beyond that, I don't think any performance or match reaches the apex of something like 2/27/00 vs. Akiyama or 3/1/03 vs. Kobashi. Lawler in the past 20 years has been great at either having fun shtick matches or parachuting in and giving great performances in big spots. I would throw up 1/4/09 as a comp for Misawa doing that very late in his career. Here he is in a New Japan dome show semi-main and he easily has the most presence and charisma in the match. As far as the comparison of a *** Lawler popcorn match invoking hiding the chain or other gimmicks vs. a run to the mill strong style tag match with Saito/Go Shiozaki/etc., it is easily to find one more entertaining at the stage where most of us here are at as wrestling fans, but they are marginally equal from a financial standpoint. On the health issues, head drops no doubt cost Misawa his life but I get real weary in playing doctor and crediting or discrediting workers based off of that. Lawler had a heart attack on air for instance. Funk is someone who even more it seems weird to praise him for working "smarter" later in his career when he was working garbage style matches and where one errant weapon shot could do as much fatal damage as the head drop style Misawa turned to. Hansen had a sustainable bull dozier style where he looked like a monster in the ring for nearly 20 years. However, stiffness played a huge role in that and him stiffing guys with clotheslines where he was walllopping the air and hoping for the best doesn't seem like the smartest working style either. Bockwinkel is an exceptional worker in 1986 and 1987 right up to the point of his retirement. He was smart and articulate inside the ring. Unfortunately, the promotion he was in was crumbling in much faster and worse fashion than NOAH ever did when Misawa was alive. I make all of these defenses as a Misawa apologist but also as someone that is rapidly coming to the conclusion that not many workers were "smart" in the twilight of their career. It is very rare for someone to have artistic success as a performer this late in the run without regressing to a dumbed down approach. It is even rarer if that results in financial success at the box office. Writing all of these has given me more credence that something like what AJ Styles is accomplishing now is really astounding as he is checking both of those boxes.

 

Misawa's work post 1997 is subjective like workrate is but he was involved in my 1998 MOTY vs. Kobashi, the 3/1/03 Misawa/Kobashi match is probably my favorite match of the 2000's, and the Akiyama 2000 match has a big chance as a MOTY as any match in 2000 for me when I start plowing through that year. Misawa's 2000-2009 is as good as any second decade that Funk or Lawler produced IMO which nets me in the minority I would assume. Hence, why I had Misawa as #1 and Lawler/Funk hovering around the top 10. The estimation that anything post 6/3/94 is excess is out there but I still see it as a rising escalation that hindered matches in 1997 when AJ really dropped off in quality as the best promotion in the world. From there it is hit/miss with certain matches even into NOAH's glory days and nothing ever matches 1992-1996 AJ as far as consistency but I was still able to see psychological rises in the escalation in matches vs. Kobashi in 10/98 and 3/03. Misawa was able to really provide a changing of the guard to Kobashi that he stuck to until Kobashi contracted cancer and Marufuji/KENTA weren't ready, Misawa could do great slugfests with Takayama and Morishima, Misawa looked like a great, stoic legend in the Tenryu tags as well as the 1/4/09 Dome match (no doubting the Tenryu singles is a blemish), and he also was helpful in their with the younger generation like Akiyama in 2000-2001, Maru/KENTA in 2004, making Shiozaki his protege in 2009, etc.

[Matt D]

 

All of this is mostly a point of comparison. I do think "working smart" is something that needs to be fleshed out more. What exactly does it mean? Is it from a drawing standpoint, a sustainability, a adaptation to a style that favors longevity?

 

 

Here's my more or less final GWE thought on "working smart" (That was from the "What did you learn from GWE thread" there's a lot in the anti-workrate thread too from myself and others.

 

 

Sorry Steven. Its not about logic to me. Logic is a tool. Selling is a tool. Spots are tools. Physical ability is a tool. Blood is a tool. Stiffness is a tool. Jim Cornette at ringside is a tool.

 

Working smart is using the tools on the table efficiently and effectively to maximize the potential meaning of everything that happens in the ring.

 

I would add "in order to achieve a specific purpose" at the end of that sentence (or "in order to create a greater whole" works as well, or hey, "in order to achieve a specific purpose and to best build to a greater whole"), but that's something I'm still working out and I can see if other people care about that less.

 

And if anyone wants to get more clarification, ask me in 2017. I'm good for now.

[NintendoLogic]

It all makes sense now. If you don't like big All Japan matches post-6/3/94, that would explain how you could think that All Japan was falling apart in 1998 and 1999. On the other hand, rich man's KENTA is the perfect encapsulation of Danielson's WWE career.

[elliott]

It all makes sense now. If you don't like big All Japan matches post-6/3/94, that would explain how you could think that All Japan was falling apart in 1998 and 1999. On the other hand, rich man's KENTA is the perfect encapsulation of Danielson's WWE career.

 

To be fair as I said above, I still think the 1/20/97 match is a classic. I also feel the same about the 96 tag league. I've avoided 6/9/95 like the plague because of how much I disliked the 4 corners tags other than 12/3/93.

 

I'm abnormally tired so I'll make a more ridiculous post probably tomorrow, but to quickly address Parv, yes I probably hit on the headdropping too much but its really part of the bigger problem which is excess. What they're doing combined with how long they're doing it too each other.

 

My 2 favorite 90s All Japan matches are Hansen vs Kobashi 7/93 and Kobashi & Kikuchi vs Can Ams 5/92.

[Microstatistics]

 

 

I agree with you about Misawa having a great presence and I'd agree that he'd be 10/10 in that wack system. Shit, I think I argued with Parv for it. But Hashimoto and Tenryu were just as compelling chopping each other to death as Misawa/Kobashi were dropping each other on their heads, you know, if not more so.

 

 

No argument there at all.

 

 

 

I cannot explain how I have a weird problem with All Japan being too big and ridiculous and still like 1/20/97 but I love that shit to this day. I can't do Misawa vs Kobashi after that. Or any Misawa vs Akiyama match.

 

 

Not sure if you've seen it but I would recommend the 2/2000 Misawa vs. Akiyama. A lot of people consider it a MOTDC and it's worked like it would have been in 91-93 rather than 94-99.

 

 

Btw, the age comparison for Bryan is really interesting (and sad)

[Loss]

I would say Jim Cornette, and not just for his sometimes questionable podcast stuff. When I watched SMW on the yearbooks, especially in 1995, it amazed me how he would take punches from active wrestlers and not bump or sell it like he'd been shot. Check out the Bodies-Gangstas brawl that spills into the street for a glaring example. I always felt like managers should oversell and he didn't, at least not in that case. I also thought he often interjected himself in feuds that didn't need him, like Snow/Unabomb vs Rock N Rolls.

 

As a wrestling mind, I still have a great deal of respect for him, but I've come to see him the same way I see Bill Watts -- an old doctor who is still better than anyone at diagnosing, but can't treat the disease because the medicine field has passed him by.

[Loss]

Re: the Lawler mention earlier in the thread, I'll make a contentious statement that I believe pretty strongly: most of his matches as a heel suck because he maintains no credibility at all. Like, not even demonstrating the ability to execute a wrestling move. The great performances are definitely there from time to time, but I find his heel instincts to be terrible and counterproductive most of the time, both in the ring and as a promo. In interviews, he often takes the HHH approach of focusing on his opponent's real perceived weaknesses, but can sort of get away with it because his wit is far superior to HHH. But they really approach heel promos the same way. Luckily, he has spent most of his career as a babyface, where he's one of the greatest ever. I wouldn't say I've "soured" on Lawler, but I don't consider him a great babyface and a great heel like I did for a long time.

[joeg]

Low Ki- small guys working stiff as fuck to seem like badasses doesn't seem as novel an idea as it did 15 years.

 

Everybody in Toryumon/Dragon Gate.- I still love the promotion's booking, but the in ring style is just so flippy.

 

Tommy Dreamer- I loved Dreamer back when I was 14. Now I can't think of one thing I really like about him. I guess I loved seeing him wrestle in person because there was a point in every match where you may have to run so you don't get trampled by the wrestlers brawling through the crowd.

 

Sabu- same as Dreamer.

 

Misawa- I've had a hard time watching Misawa matches for 7 years now without feeling some twinge of guilt or remorse. Jesus died for our sins, Misawa died just for our entertainment.

[Microstatistics]

Re: the Lawler mention earlier in the thread, I'll make a contentious statement that I believe pretty strongly: most of his matches as a heel suck because he maintains no credibility at all. Like, not even demonstrating the ability to execute a wrestling move. The great performances are definitely there from time to time, but I find his heel instincts to be terrible and counterproductive most of the time, both in the ring and as a promo. In interviews, he often takes the HHH approach of focusing on his opponent's real perceived weaknesses, but can sort of get away with it because his wit is far superior to HHH. But they really approach heel promos the same way. Luckily, he has spent most of his career as a babyface, where he's one of the greatest ever. I wouldn't say I've "soured" on Lawler, but I don't consider him a great babyface and a great heel like I did for a long time.

 

I agree with this 100%. I simply don't see the greatness behind hide-the-chain and things like that. It's fun sure but doesn't really make for good matches. The real meat of his career is his babyface run.

[JaymeFuture]

I want to thank everybody for the contributions, we got to read many of them on the show, which is now available at the following link:

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/5f2atq/SCG_Radio_101_-_The_Bloom_Is_Off_The_Rose.mp3

Join us as we discuss Favourites That You Soured On! Taking your nominations, we discuss individuals that were once thought of in high regard, but for whatever reason have fallen from grace in the eyes of you, the loyal listeners, and us around the oaken table. Names such as Mick Foley, Matt Hardy, Jim Ross, Dean Ambrose, Brock Lesnar, The Rock, Sting, Jake Roberts, Rob Van Dam, Seth Rollins, Ric Flair and Zack Ryder all get discussed, as well as many others to boot. A very fun show this week, check it out and let us know what you think!

[elliott]

Sorry for the delay in response, its been a hell of a couple of weeks. Responding to Parv

 

Age comparison point on Bryan is interesting.

 

I look at the mid 30s as the sweet spot for a wrestling prime. As important as athleticism is in wrestling, brains are important as well. When you're in your mid-late 20s, you're at your peak as an athlete. Your body has filled out and you've had time to grow into it and you're years away from falling apart. In your mid-late 40s your body as fallen apart/is falling apart but you have so much experience and know all the tricks of the trade, great wrestlers are able to overcome their decline in athleticism.

 

Mid 30s is that sweet spot where your body hasn't started to completely fall apart so you're still close to your peak as an athlete but you also have a decade of experience by that point as well so your brain is there as well.

 

Of course, in a couple of years when I reach my mid 30s officially, I'll probably start saying late 30s and early 40s is when you peak

 

That's what hurts about Bryan. Great as he was, I think we were only just getting there. It feels like a full career because we watched it unfold from the start and have probably the majority of his matches on tape. You can't say that about many people before Bryan's era so our perspective on him is all screwed up.

 

 

Having watched all that AJ stuff pretty recently, the head-dropping complaint seems a little overplayed to me as a criticism especially prior to 1997, and I see it brought up against Misawa more than I do Kawada, even though Kawada is as guilty of it as anyone else -- and is often the guy taking the sickest spots.

 

Wait...Kawada is often the guy taking the sickest spots? I definitely wouldn't agree with that especially if you continue forward from 1997. I'd say Misawa took the nastiest shit, then Kobashi then Kawada and then Taue.

 

But anyway, as I said last week, I probably hit the headdropping too hard but it is a real criticism and I'll get there. But I wanted to address my point about excess being the real problem.

 

Its just that. I think excess is the real problem. For how hard they were hitting each other, the moves they were doing, how they'd choose to sell at times along the way, I think they did way too much and went way too long A lot of this is preference sure and I wouldn't argue that Misawa was bad at what he was trying to do. He was great at it. But I don't think what he was trying to do was a particularly smart way to work so there is going to be bias in seeping through in general.

 

 

Why do people think the head dropping is a charge brought against Misawa more than Kawada? Is it because of the way he died?

 

This is tough to talk about because it is so taboo and you don't want to be disrespectful. But yeah, I think how he died probably plays a role in it. Its kind of hard not to knowing what we know. But people were talking about cringe worthy headdrops before NOAH ever formed with Misawa. I think he tends to get the criticism more than Kawada because Misawa (& Kobashi to be fair), as the ace was more influential in pushing the All Japan style towards the way he (and Kobashi, the more popular wrestler) wanted to work. I think this manifested itself in the split and you saw the direction All Japan went with a more toned down on head dropping & even heavier on ultra stiffness while NOAH continued more in the tradition of crazy neck breaky spots and also added the ramp to throw each other off of.

 

I think peak AJPW from 90-97 is particularly marked by its layered psychology, where that comes from exactly we've been discussing, but I wouldn't want us to lapse into "there are head drops therefore this shit is stupid" territory, when I'm not sure how many matches in history build on each other as that series does. I just think we should remember why they have their reputation, and I don't think it's because of the head drops. The highly touted matches are mostly masterpieces of psychology, and building to a finish. The big huge landmark moments like the Tiger Drivers or the first time Taue gets a pin, or whatever, stay with you.

 

How much of it is the booking though? Misawa beat Kawada every time they wrestled so of course we're going to remember the three times out of 250 that Kawada beat him, right? In All Japan wins & losses mean more than any other promotion as much because of the strict adherence to hierarchy and patience in the booking as in the matches.

 

I think the psychology in All Japan tends to be a little overrated. I remember 15+ years ago wanting to figure out all of the little nuances and similarities between Misawa/Kawada 6/3/94 and Jumbo/Tenryu from 6/5/89 because the narrative surrounding All Japan's deep psychology with every move mattering and every match playing off each other and those two especially playing off each other. I asked on tOA "So what are all the similarities beyond Jumbo's protege vs Tenryu's protege, Triple Crown, Powerbombs. And the answer from jdw & friends was "that's basically it." Oh. well that's not all that mindblowing. There is great psychology sure. But I don't really think its on some level beyond everything else in wrestling that it makes up for all the other issues I have with the style which I'll talk about now.

 

If I had to break down how I feel about All Japan in a much briefer summary I'd say something like "I think they work hard and are full of great ideas and moments but the great ideas and moments are overwhelmed by all the stuff they do." For example, I used to always love Kawada's dead legs sell where he sells getting knocked out unconscious. There are times where it works and is totally fucking awesome and adds to the match/moment. But there are times where I fucking hate it and it just halts all the momentum of the match and more often than not he's up hitting a powerbomb or jumping kick not long after even though most people who get knocked unconscious are unlikely to be lifting 250lb men up in the air. Its a really cool spot and it absolutely works at times but other times if you think about it for more than "awesome kawada knockout sell" it actually seems kinda stupid even within the framework of stupid fake wrestling

 

I think the delayed selling stuff is absolutely terrible and honestly, more than the headdrops its the delayed selling that I really hate. Misawa hits Kobashi with a german suplex, Kobashi pops up hits Misawa with a lariat, Misawa pops up & hits Kobashi with an elbow and then both guys sell for 30 seconds. I hate that and it permeated the style and is maybe the biggest influence it had on wrestling.

 

I think All Japan devalued mat work. I think they were smart on some level to do so because the pillars weren't very good at mat wrestling. But, you know, I like mat work. The devaluing of submissions made even less sense when guys continued to apply and treat their submissions like they still mattered when they hadn't beaten anybody in years and the fans were long past caring about them. I think they devalued almost everything they did. I think there are ways to build feuds and maintain rivalries beyond "Last time it took 2 Tiger Drivers to win, this time it took 2 Tiger Drivers & a Tiger Suplex 85. Next time it will take 3 Tiger Drivers & a Tiger Suplex 85 and a Running Elbow." Sure they're building from match to match. But is it the end all be all? Not really.

 

I hate that they always did the crappy outside the ring brawling that never really led to anything of consequence. Selfishly, as someone who loves brawling, I don't think they did brawls well (ignoring stuff against Hansen and Kawada vs Taue matches). Wild out of control brawls like Fabs vs Moondogs or Invader I vs Al Perez or Jerry Lawler vs Terry Funk or Satanico vs El Dandy, Stan Hansen's whole career is literally my favorite broad general style of wrestling. If there was a "brawling, mat work, high flying, whatever" poll, I'd vote for brawling 100x out of 100 and it wouldn't take longer than 1/10th of a second to decide. So 90s All Japan is going to suffer that way. In addition to devaluing mat work which is like my 2nd favorite style. So when I watch All Japan, I understand why people think its great and I used to be right there. But now I just see bloated title match after bloated title match and I just want to go watch Abdullah stab a guy in the face after a certain point. I used to be in the screaming internet nerd crowd that 90s All Japan was the highest of the high end. I always thought Tamura was kinda right there with them, but gave the All Japan dudes more credit for working more matches than Tamura, something I care way less about now. Now, 90s All Japan is the period of the company I'm least likely to watch.

 

This is going to seem really crazy since I'm a lucha guy, but I think a lot of the sequences are badly choreographed. Lucha tumbling mat work sequences are to shitty ballet as Misawa Kawada Strike Reversal Exchanges are to F-Level Action Movie Hand to Hand Combat sequences.

 

This isn't at all to say that I think these guys are terrible workers. I just have problems with the style which in turn leads to the workers. I chose to pick on Misawa because he was the Ace, he finished highest in GWE. Misawa & Kobashi irritate me more as the decade wears on than Kawada & Taue. Though those two, especially Kawada, have their flaws. Kobashi has the advantage of still be in two of my favorite matches ever (w/ Kikuchi vs Can Ams & vs Hansen 7/93) that are still desert island matches for me. No matter how I feel about the style and Kobashi, I can watch those 2 matches anytime. So I went after Misawa as the favorite I've soured on when really its all of it.

 

I couldn't rank any of them ahead of:

1. Tamura

2. Tenryu

3. Fujiwara

4. Hasimoto

5. Fujinami

6. Liger

7. Jumbo

8. Choshu

9. Baba

10. Etc and really the etc would just piss people off

 

All that said, they're undeniably great at what they're trying to accomplish, it just isn't for me and I don't think its a particularly smart way to work.

 

[Microstatistics]

re: Elliott

 

Would you consider Taue the smartest of the four then?. Because he was the least guilty of the flaws you mentioned and was able to make small things feel big.

[elliott]

Yes I would say thats fair, but I also think Taue is guilty of a lot of those things. Perhaps not to the extent of others, but I'm not willing to say "Misawa & Kobashi did delayed selling and i didn't like it but Taue didn't or if he did it was ok because he did other things I liked more." I do like Taue the most. I like Misawa vs Taue after more than Misawa vs Kawada after 94 or Misawa vs Kobashi or Misawa vs Akiyama. I prefer Taue vs Kawada to Kawada vs Kobashi or Misawa vs Kawada post 94. But Taue was also part of matches I don't like doing things I didn't like. So he's not faultless. But generally yeah, I like Taue the most. I like the NOAH stuff I've seen with him the most too.

[JerryvonKramer]

I enjoyed reading that. I'm not gonna argue cos we all have styles we like and dislike more than other styles for whatever reasons, and some of mine are well known.

 

There are a few things I agree with broadly. Thinking back on AJ Excite series, I definitely made the point that they were not good at matwork more than once, and as a result I think those guys are much better working 30 minutes than an hour. Most forty minute matches feel like they could lose ten or fifteen to be tighter.

 

Also the point on brawling seems fair to me, and I do hate to bring up the spectre of BIGLAV, but you'll recall these guys scored poorly in the "A" rating because it seems to me that they only really worked one style well.

 

That said, and this is a separate point, would you also broadly agree that we probably shouldn't criticise styles for not being like our favourite styles and that it's only fair to judge things within their own contexts? That's to say: while it's a fair point that four pillars weren't great at matwork or brawling (within what they did), it's not fair to downgrade them because they aren't style X which one might like better.

[stro]

Ultimo Dragon is probably at the top of my list. Loved him as a kid, now realize he was one of the sloppiest dudes. Like, bordering on Super Calo level sloppy. In Japan and WCW. You're lucky to find a match on WCW TV, in SWS, or NJ where he doesn't have at least one huge botch on stuff he would do regularly. And even worse, if one of his opponents would botch, he'd get pissy and stiff the fuck out of them, usually kicking them full force in the head.

 

 

 

 

In general, I've really soured on AJ in the 90s and find it so much less interesting and enjoyable than 70s and 80s AJ. That structure got so old by like...1994.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd like to know your views on Jumbo sometime stro, for me he's one of the true GOATs.

[stro]

I'd like to know your views on Jumbo sometime stro, for me he's one of the true GOATs.

 

Jumbo is undoubtedly in the top 10 all time worldwide. Probably top 5 and up.

[goc]

If you're gonna post gifs of Ultimo Dragon botches you can't leave this one out: