Hell in a Cell 2016

[PhilTLL]

This has always been a weird complaint to me. As if people who cheat to win matches don't care about women or children in their lives or something.

It neutralizes the in-character unlikability(?) of heels. Outside of the people directly linked to them, it's not really relevant or effective for a heel to show a lot of goodwill and fondness, excepting Fake Nice heels like Kurt Angle. If anything, some of them should be drawing heat off the corporate sunshine stuff. "Stephanie McMahon made me wear this crap, I'm just here to beat people up," etc. I mean, if you want heels that generate actual antipathy instead of that "pretending to be a bad guy but really Doing It All For The WWE Universe because we're all in this together" feeling.

 

I don't mind that they all do autograph sessions and other real-world stuff together, this isn't 1985, but there's no good wrestling reason to have heels do Good Person Things on screen. We all know it's a work and heels are not devious and despicable in real life. (Except when they are, but that's another story.)

[shakla]

 

This has always been a weird complaint to me. As if people who cheat to win matches don't care about women or children in their lives or something.

Heels are playing characters. Just because you don't wear a pink ribbon pin doesn't mean you are anti-cancer awareness. When more heels than faces wear the pins on-screen, there's a problem. If Nia Jax wants to wear a pin at the airport, that's one thing. But being a monster heel and having it on her outfit walking the ramp is another.

[Coffey]

Rollins Vs. Owens is pretty much everything I hate about pro-wrestling. The animated .gif posted earlier being a good, visual example.

 

Sasha Vs. Charlotte is being ridiculously overrated in this thread but it was a lot better than Rollins/Owens. I have no problem with it going on last whatsoever. I just wanted more.

[cpst]

I'm not really into ranking matches. I don't finish watching a show and wonder if the main event is one of the 10 best matches to ever happen in the promotion. But that main event was way better than any of the other matches on the show. I have no clue how they ever thought Owens/Rollins could have followed that.

[stro]

 

This has always been a weird complaint to me. As if people who cheat to win matches don't care about women or children in their lives or something.

It neutralizes the in-character unlikability(?) of heels. Outside of the people directly linked to them, it's not really relevant or effective for a heel to show a lot of goodwill and fondness, excepting Fake Nice heels like Kurt Angle. If anything, some of them should be drawing heat off the corporate sunshine stuff. "Stephanie McMahon made me wear this crap, I'm just here to beat people up," etc. I mean, if you want heels that generate actual antipathy instead of that "pretending to be a bad guy but really Doing It All For The WWE Universe because we're all in this together" feeling.

 

I don't mind that they all do autograph sessions and other real-world stuff together, this isn't 1985, but there's no good wrestling reason to have heels do Good Person Things on screen. We all know it's a work and heels are not devious and despicable in real life. (Except when they are, but that's another story.)

 

 

 

 

This has always been a weird complaint to me. As if people who cheat to win matches don't care about women or children in their lives or something.

Heels are playing characters. Just because you don't wear a pink ribbon pin doesn't mean you are anti-cancer awareness. When more heels than faces wear the pins on-screen, there's a problem. If Nia Jax wants to wear a pin at the airport, that's one thing. But being a monster heel and having it on her outfit walking the ramp is another.

 

I disagree with these completely. This is not an era where people even have gimmicks, let alone gimmicks where supporting breast cancer awareness or pediatric cancer charities has any impact on their characters as heels. People have sick family members. Nia Jax isn't worried about breast cancer? Kevin Owens explicitly does every thing he does to provide for his family. Supporting a children's charity is out of character for him? This is not like...Papa Shango out there with charity ribbons pinned to his hat.

 

They're all playing characters, but they're not really characters anymore. They're performers and athletes instead of over the top gimmicks. The people with actual characters that aren't "Normal person who is happy to win cleanly" and "Normal person is happy to win by cheating" aren't wearing the pins and ribbons. Which is basically just the Wyatts, Taker, and Brock. And nothing applies to Brock and Taker anyway. It's not 1985 is right. In no way is the wrestlers on the show supporting various charities some character or show breaking thing. It's really pretty bizarre to me that anyone could come to that conclusion. Even wrestling characters have families, and their family members get cancer, too. Even Jason Voorhees loved his mama.

[Childs]

Caught up with the show a day late and man, the women's match was terrific. They achieved a ragged, violent feel that the vast majority of men on the roster could stand to learn from. And they did a bunch of creative stuff without resorting to stupid stunts. I wasn't a huge fan of the fight off the stretcher, because it didn't quite feel earned and misplaced some of the initial energy. But they more than made up for it. I can also see the argument that the finish felt abrupt. The live crowd obviously wasn't ready for it. But I'll take that over 10 minutes of 2.9 counts any day of the week. I went in assuming Elliott's praise for the match must be fucking nuts. As it turns out, he wasn't far off. Anybody who thought that was a lesser match than the Owens-Rollins crapfest is not a wrestling critic I need to listen to.

[jushin muta liger]

What happened to PTBN Reaction show for this?

[Matt D]

My only problem with the finish is that I literally forgot that Sasha had problems with her back by the point it happened because it was such a non factor for the few minutes before (even the side slam on the chair felt far more like just a gimmicky counter than something specifically hurting the back too). She hadn't really struggled to hit any offense for most of the match. I don't remember if Charlotte specifically used it for cut offs either. The match wasn't really structured with a lot of heat and cut offs once it got going. You see some of the great matches that have a moment of a worked body part leading towards a finish and it's usually built better within the match (with transitions and cut offs centered around it and more of a sense of having to fight through it by the babyface), not just as a flashpoint in the beginning and then again at the end with a small bit of focused offense within.

 

By that last sequence, I was far more focused on whether Charlotte was going to moonsault through the table or not. I thought that the pinfall, when it came and abrupt as it was, felt totally earned BECAUSE the table didn't break and she tried twice and it was so brutal looking. It surprised me because we're so conditioned to the way ending sequences are supposed to feel. It was more a sense of "Oh, ok. Ok. I'm ok with that." when it ended as opposed to something more emotional. But again, I was okay with it.

 

I do have more to say about the intensity of the match tomorrow though.

[Childs]

I thought Charlotte did a good job of continually returning to the back. And Sasha did a good job of working as if she was damaged. Her offense came in bursts and I never got the sense she was just racing around with abandon. When she did the three suplexes, for example, she seemed to pay for the expenditure of energy. I don't know, nothing she did yanked me out of the narrative.

[Matt D]

The three amigos, especially, kind of bugged me, because I didn't notice what you did at all. In fact it was the opposite. One of the announcers said "With her hurt back, I don't see how she's doing this!" which is a way of covering, but not as ideal as her doing more to overtly sell it (she should have probably at least missed the frog splash because she was delayed by the cost of what she just did).

 

I'll admit that was just notional. I'd have to watch again to really be sure. And it wouldn't have been an issue to me to any great degree if it wasn't so pivotal to the finish.

[goc]

Sasha collapsing during her Liger Bomb attempt was essentially what led into the finishing stretch so not sure how you could forget her injured back.

[Matt D]

Yeah, goc. That's the moment I remembered. I included that in the "Finish." Up until the collapse I had forgotten (or maybe moved on). Maybe that's more on me. I'll rewatch at some point, but that is the sort of thing I look for, and at some point in the match, I moved on and stopped looking for it and was looking for other things.

[Fando]

there was no "finishing stretch." From the moment she collapsed during the liger bomb to the pinfall cover was like 30 seconds. And a minute before that she was still doing a tilt a whirl into an attempted Banks Statement. After she had her back dropped on a open chair. 15 minutes after she was going to be stretchered out of the arena. Yeah, it wasn't super choreographed like Owens-Rollins but it was still a 2k17 match come to life. So I wouldn't blame anyone for "moving on" from that during the match. It was one of those things they were doing their best to highlight on commentary but it didn't often match with what they were trying to do in the ring. Still disagree with Sasha basically jumping up on and rolling down the table at the end looking "so brutal."

[BrianB]

After replying in the Meltzer thread, I wonder how people's assessment's of the Last Battle of Atlanta correlates to their assessment of the women's HIAC match. I've watched it twice in 2 days now, I'd still go ***3/4 to **** range though. I'm not as high on the match as others. It might work better as stand alone viewing. Some my rating just might be clouded by my own ticks and the show as a whole. Personally, the show last night was too long, and while Reigns/Rusev was the worst offender, all post-spots of both girls selling so WWE could show the replay undermined the blood brawl dynamic a little for me. They made sense for Sasha, after the initial angle pre-match, but kind of less so for Charlotte, imo. And after seeing so many shocked faces to kickouts earlier in the show, I'm sure a few of the false finishes in this match bugged me a little. I didn't have a big issue with the finish though. Booking that as the finish? Yeah, that didn't make much sense to me, but after a long brutal match, two throws onto the table and then a natural selection I bought as the final straw that was just too much for Sasha, especially since her back finally gave out to lead into that sequence.

 

I'm glad they brought more of a violent, rough style to their match though. Personally, I think that's sorely missing on most of the main roster matches, and it helped them stand out.

[BrianB]

I thought Charlotte did a good job of continually returning to the back. And Sasha did a good job of working as if she was damaged. Her offense came in bursts and I never got the sense she was just racing around with abandon. When she did the three suplexes, for example, she seemed to pay for the expenditure of energy. I don't know, nothing she did yanked me out of the narrative.

 

I'd commend this as well. If you want to nit pick, maybe the 3 suplexes hope/comeback spot could have come earlier in the match rather than closer to the end. But Sasha did a strong job to where most of her offense did not rely on back strength. Charlotte just kept focusing her attack, and eventually it paid off.

[Matt D]

Let me try to talk this bit out. I only watched four real matches Sunday night into Monday morning. I saw the Kendrick one while it happened, more or less, and caught the women the next morning. The two others I saw? the Korchenko squash on NWAonDemand and the Blade Runners one. I figured someone should check them out just in case there was anything noteworthy in them. For the Blade Runners match, at least, it likely never aired and this is the first time anyone's seen it in 30 years. I have some doubts that more than fifty people in the world have even seen it now. It's not exactly a huge pull.

 

The match ended with one of the two ways a Blade Runners win ends. Either they hit the bearhug/running (no jump) clothesline Hart Attack combo or Rock/Warrior does a press slam and then Sting comes in with a big splash. In this case, it was the latter. Rock would, at times, do a press slam where he bumps the person like someone tossing Flair off the top rope, forward. Other times, he'd drop the guy like he'd do later in his career. In both cases, he usually needed to rely on the tights to get the guy up and it was bad when he didn't. We saw him, at the height of his career, dangerously drop Heenan time after time, for instance.

 

Rock absolutely could not get his opponent up here. He made it about halfway and then just crumpled him, dropped him, and he landed in the most awkward, horrible way possible. It was nasty and gnarly and in that moment, actually helped the mystique of the Blade Runners, because it made it seem like they just killed this poor bastard and that they kayfabe had no regard for human life. His inability to hit his move successfully added to the moment instead of hurting it, but it probably did so at the cost of the the jobber's health, not because of any sort of skill or precision, but instead because of the lack of such.

 

That's what drove a lot of the women's title match. I mentioned that it had a mood before, that it felt more like a horror movie. Some of that was the intensity and Charlotte's heeling. Some of it was the innate concern that they were going to try to do something to warrant the main event spot. Most of it, however, was in their execution. People have mentioned sloppiness as a positive but I see sloppiness as a certain disregard or inexperience or lack of timing. That wasn't what this was. The match was made through them attempting things that they couldn't hit over and over again and there being obvious negative consequences to the attempt. It was made by being more real than it should have been and the Faces of Death impulses that seeing this, again and again, were sent down your spine; the way you might watch some sort of backyard trainwreck with lighttubes. There was the tope into the cage. There was the apron bump that went all sorts of wrong. There were the table spots. There was a willing disregard for safety so long as the the match worked. It wasn't built into the match, necessarily. Those spots were planned out to be mostly safe ones, but there was no veering off course when something didn't work out. It was total commitment and total immersion.

 

The most memorable thing about the match wasn't them climbing the cage and the announcer table powerbomb. It wasn't the pop when Sasha got up. It wasn't the early Bank Statement attempt. It wasn't even that tope or apron spot. It was the two table throws in the end. Why? Because they didn't work and because Charlotte didn't for a moment show any sign of caring. She was completely immersed into her character. When Sasha didn't go through the first time, she lawn-darted her even more severely the second time. Unlike the case with Rock and the jobber, Sasha almost certainly wanted her to do exactly that, and it created one of the most striking moments we've had in a Cell in a decade.

 

So they get a ton of credit for keeping together in the midst of all the failed attempts at execution, of working that into the match by never forgetting the characters they were portraying, by never interrupting the purity of the match with audibles or disingenuous repeats of spots. But from a comparative sense, I wonder if it doesn't raise some red flags that, in a business which is supposed to be about the illusion of danger and harm, they were able to craft a match with so distinct a mood primarily out of grisly, far too real, athletic failures.

[JerryvonKramer]

On a slightly different note, back in January I said this about the New Day and various fans got upset, what do people feel now?

 

In years to come fans will look back on those guys like we look back on Men on a Mission.

[stro]

On a slightly different note, back in January I said this about the New Day and various fans got upset, what do people feel now?

 

In years to come fans will look back on those guys like we look back on Men on a Mission.

 

Beyond both being black and wearing bright colors, I have no idea where you'd get that comparison. There are no similarities in work style, ability, promo style, characters, or popularity. Fans will look back on New Day as a shining beacon of what letting guys be themselves can do in an era where everything is scripted and timed to the second. There has not been a more consistently quality act in WWE in the past year and a half. They're the only group that goes out there and are trusted to be themselves and say whatever the fuck they want. 9/10 times, it works perfectly.

 

New Day going from 3 guys struggling to getting paired up as bizarre black preacher...things?...., to cutting loose and being themselves, becoming one of if not the most over group in the company and being the biggest merch movers at WM weekend, all on the basis of them getting over for being themselves, is nothing short of amazing. Particularly in the era they're a part of.

[Fando]

Let me try to talk this bit out. I only watched four real matches Sunday night into Monday morning. I saw the Kendrick one while it happened, more or less, and caught the women the next morning. The two others I saw? the Korchenko squash on NWAonDemand and the Blade Runners one. I figured someone should check them out just in case there was anything noteworthy in them. For the Blade Runners match, at least, it likely never aired and this is the first time anyone's seen it in 30 years. I have some doubts that more than fifty people in the world have even seen it now. It's not exactly a huge pull.

 

The match ended with one of the two ways a Blade Runners win ends. Either they hit the bearhug/running (no jump) clothesline Hart Attack combo or Rock/Warrior does a press slam and then Sting comes in with a big splash. In this case, it was the latter. Rock would, at times, do a press slam where he bumps the person like someone tossing Flair off the top rope, forward. Other times, he'd drop the guy like he'd do later in his career. In both cases, he usually needed to rely on the tights to get the guy up and it was bad when he didn't. We saw him, at the height of his career, dangerously drop Heenan time after time, for instance.

 

Rock absolutely could not get his opponent up here. He made it about halfway and then just crumpled him, dropped him, and he landed in the most awkward, horrible way possible. It was nasty and gnarly and in that moment, actually helped the mystique of the Blade Runners, because it made it seem like they just killed this poor bastard and that they kayfabe had no regard for human life. His inability to hit his move successfully added to the moment instead of hurting it, but it probably did so at the cost of the the jobber's health, not because of any sort of skill or precision, but instead because of the lack of such.

 

That's what drove a lot of the women's title match. I mentioned that it had a mood before, that it felt more like a horror movie. Some of that was the intensity and Charlotte's heeling. Some of it was the innate concern that they were going to try to do something to warrant the main event spot. Most of it, however, was in their execution. People have mentioned sloppiness as a positive but I see sloppiness as a certain disregard or inexperience or lack of timing. That wasn't what this was. The match was made through them attempting things that they couldn't hit over and over again and there being obvious negative consequences to the attempt. It was made by being more real than it should have been and the Faces of Death impulses that seeing this, again and again, were sent down your spine; the way you might watch some sort of backyard trainwreck with lighttubes. There was the tope into the cage. There was the apron bump that went all sorts of wrong. There were the table spots. There was a willing disregard for safety so long as the the match worked. It wasn't built into the match, necessarily. Those spots were planned out to be mostly safe ones, but there was no veering off course when something didn't work out. It was total commitment and total immersion.

 

The most memorable thing about the match wasn't them climbing the cage and the announcer table powerbomb. It wasn't the pop when Sasha got up. It wasn't the early Bank Statement attempt. It wasn't even that tope or apron spot. It was the two table throws in the end. Why? Because they didn't work and because Charlotte didn't for a moment show any sign of caring. She was completely immersed into her character. When Sasha didn't go through the first time, she lawn-darted her even more severely the second time. Unlike the case with Rock and the jobber, Sasha almost certainly wanted her to do exactly that, and it created one of the most striking moments we've had in a Cell in a decade.

 

So they get a ton of credit for keeping together in the midst of all the failed attempts at execution, of working that into the match by never forgetting the characters they were portraying, by never interrupting the purity of the match with audibles or disingenuous repeats of spots. But from a comparative sense, I wonder if it doesn't raise some red flags that, in a business which is supposed to be about the illusion of danger and harm, they were able to craft a match with so distinct a mood primarily out of grisly, far too real, athletic failures.

 

this is really over-intellectualizing what actually happened. There was no lawn darting

 

 

As a spectacle it felt flat, the table made no sound, there barely appeared to be any impact because Sasha is so light and basically rolled up the table and back down. This is something we've seen a hundred times in brawls. Most recently during Styles-Reigns matches where AJ got tossed all over the arena.

[Childs]

I agree that it fell flat as a spectacle, certainly in the arena. But I thought those two throws into the table looked violent as hell and fit with the tone of the match. I like that the table didn't break, because that's such a fucking cliche at this point.

[Fando]

It can't be both though, it either looked and sounded violent or it didn't. It's wrestling, it needs to come off big in front of the crowd. I like the idea of it, but after rewatching it it just looks goofy and no way I could say the ending would not have been as good if Sasha did explode through the table followed by Natural Selection. Just because something is cliche doesn't mean it can't still be effective if placed and executed right during the match. And there were already cliches all over this match with the announce table and stretcher stuff. Might be nitpicking if I point out they also did the same RESPECT ME / I'M BETTER THAN YOU bit they do in every match that always ends with Sasha punching Charlotte in the face.

[WingedEagle]

On a slightly different note, back in January I said this about the New Day and various fans got upset, what do people feel now?

 

In years to come fans will look back on those guys like we look back on Men on a Mission.

 

 

Haven't been a fan for the duration of their babyface run. Just not my humor. It seems like they sold a lot of tshirts and perhaps cereal boxes. Good for them if so, but the entire routine is not funny or entertaining.

 

I agree that it fell flat as a spectacle, certainly in the arena. But I thought those two throws into the table looked violent as hell and fit with the tone of the match. I like that the table didn't break, because that's such a fucking cliche at this point.

 

This is exactly the point. It works because its not what we're accustomed to and expect so throwing variance into what's become a routine spot makes it special.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

On a slightly different note, back in January I said this about the New Day and various fans got upset, what do people feel now?

 

In years to come fans will look back on those guys like we look back on Men on a Mission.

 

Haven't been a fan for the duration of their babyface run. Just not my humor. It seems like they sold a lot of tshirts and perhaps cereal boxes. Good for them if so, but the entire routine is not funny or entertaining.

 

I've usually watched their segments through my fingers cringing, but then DX always had that effect on me too. Strokes and folks I guess.

[Childs]

It can't be both though, it either looked and sounded violent or it didn't. It's wrestling, it needs to come off big in front of the crowd. I like the idea of it, but after rewatching it it just looks goofy and no way I could say the ending would not have been as good if Sasha did explode through the table followed by Natural Selection. Just because something is cliche doesn't mean it can't still be effective if placed and executed right during the match. And there were already cliches all over this match with the announce table and stretcher stuff. Might be nitpicking if I point out they also did the same RESPECT ME / I'M BETTER THAN YOU bit they do in every match that always ends with Sasha punching Charlotte in the face.

It looked and sounded violent to me, watching on TV. But it did not click as a big spectacle spot for the live crowd. So it worked on one level but not on another. Those concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

 

And yes, the match would have worked just fine, maybe better for a lot of people, if Sasha had gone through the table. Cliche absolutely can and often does work. But what I liked so much about this match is that a lot of it didn't fall into typical WWE spectacle shit (as I said in my first post, didn't love the stretcher stuff) and the table not breaking fit with that. It was a happy accident.

[Matt D]

I guess part of my question is this: Does it affect your rating of a match if so much of it is full of obvious happy (horrible) accidents?