WingedEagle Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Sasha vs Charlotte felt like one of the 5-10 best matches in the history of the company to me on first watch. This felt like a distinct possibility at points throughout the match, but it needed blood and/or a more satisfying finish to cement it. RE: Matt D's comments about Sasha selling the back. I agree that there were instances Sasha could've shown a greater commitment to selling the damage. But from legitimately turning on the waterworks to the point that it looked like she was truly disappointed at having the match called early following the table powerbomb, to the agony she showed at every bump along the way (such as the backbreaker) on the chair and then hammering it home when her back gave out on the attempted Liger Bomb, I thought the back selling absolutely made the match. Along with Charlotte's heel performance and mannerisms, of course. On the table powerbomb itself, I thought the spot looked and sounded brutal the moment it occurred. The impact along with how Sasha slid off thereafter looked devastating. It also absolutely makes a difference it was a woman with her frame taking that bump, much as it would have different mileage if it were Mysterio going through the table as opposed to Big Show. Just changes the dynamic entirely. Need to rewatch the entire thing again this week, but as of now I'm pretty firmly in camp with Parv that this is about as high a ****1/2 as you can go. A more impactful very possibly kicks this up a notch, but still one I"m looking forward to going back to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTLL Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I'd give anything for a wrestler to show up that doesn't give a damn about PC, getting sued or trying to sell more goddamn shirts... but that'll never happen. Pro-wrestling has been changed forever. I'm not sure what being PC has to do with any of that, but sure. I took this as a reference to WWE-PC: putting smiles on faces because it's all for the fans!, keeping it family friendly and smooth around the edges, lots of loud charity work and confused advocacy, etc. Heels who wear pink ribbons and Connor's Cure badges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 The fact that there are people saying the Charlotte/Sasha match wasn't great is ok, but that there are a lot of people saying it was outright BAD is just fucking stupid. Especially when they are saying Seth Rollins and Kevin Owens was WAY better. If only Sasha & Charlotte didn't work a match that conveyed hatred and wanting to legitimately hurt your opponent and did perfectly choreographed no selling sequences like Owens & Rollins maybe it could have gotten a few more snowflakes thrown it's way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 The fact that there are people saying the Charlotte/Sasha match wasn't great is ok, but that there are a lot of people saying it was outright BAD is just fucking stupid. Especially when they are saying Seth Rollins and Kevin Owens was WAY better. If only Sasha & Charlotte didn't work a match that conveyed hatred and wanting to legitimately hurt your opponent and did perfectly choreographed no selling sequences like Owens & Rollins maybe it could have gotten a few more snowflakes thrown it's way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Looking at that list, there seems a distinct lack of Eddie to me. I think a good comparison point for Charlotte / Sasha last night is Eddie Guerrero vs. Brock Lesnar (2/15/04). I had that at ****1/2 but high end for that rating, and I think the match last night is right around there. 4.5 knocking on the door of 4.75. As of right now I have it at 3 3/4 knocking on the door of 4. I had it ****. It's weird cause I felt that it's not the best match of both of their careers but Charlotte had her best performance as a character and this was Sasha's best performance as a true babyface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I also want to put my comments in context. They don't come from a point of whether the match was really good or not (it was). They come mainly from the response of the "top ten WWE ever" talking point. I think the match earned the main event spot and justified the cell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 The fact that there are people saying the Charlotte/Sasha match wasn't great is ok, but that there are a lot of people saying it was outright BAD is just fucking stupid. Especially when they are saying Seth Rollins and Kevin Owens was WAY better. If only Sasha & Charlotte didn't work a match that conveyed hatred and wanting to legitimately hurt your opponent and did perfectly choreographed no selling sequences like Owens & Rollins maybe it could have gotten a few more snowflakes thrown it's way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I had it above Sasha vs. Bayley as a basis of comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I thought the selling from both ladies was pretty spotty. Charlotte being on offense like 30 seconds after going through the chair stuck out to me. It drives me bonkers to see people congratulating the heels post-match all over social media. It's impossible to get real heat anymore because as soon as the match/event is over everyone is all like "QUEEN!" all over dumb ass social media. I'm a bitter, jaded old fan. I hate the crowd doing dueling chants. I hate the heels being funny & getting laughs. I hate the fans knowing it's all a work & these are just "entertainers" & thanking them for being entertaining. I'd give anything for a wrestler to show up that doesn't give a damn about PC, getting sued or trying to sell more goddamn shirts... but that'll never happen. Pro-wrestling has been changed forever. This complaint seems rather misplaced considering that Charlotte is one of the few on the roster who does get genuine heel heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmostNinjaLike Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Looking at that list, there seems a distinct lack of Eddie to me. I think a good comparison point for Charlotte / Sasha last night is Eddie Guerrero vs. Brock Lesnar (2/15/04). I had that at ****1/2 but high end for that rating, and I think the match last night is right around there. 4.5 knocking on the door of 4.75. As of right now I have it at 3 3/4 knocking on the door of 4. I had it ****. It's weird cause I felt that it's not the best match of both of their careers but Charlotte had her best performance as a character and this was Sasha's best performance as a true babyface. I would agree with that. I still don't buy into Sasha as a face, but she definitely made some headway with me last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 The fact that there are people saying the Charlotte/Sasha match wasn't great is ok, but that there are a lot of people saying it was outright BAD is just fucking stupid. Especially when they are saying Seth Rollins and Kevin Owens was WAY better. If only Sasha & Charlotte didn't work a match that conveyed hatred and wanting to legitimately hurt your opponent and did perfectly choreographed no selling sequences like Owens & Rollins maybe it could have gotten a few more snowflakes thrown it's way. When I saw the power bomb through the two tables spot, it got my attention but it didn't last long. I can't remember anything from the Universal Title HIAC other than that spot and Jericho coming in. Reigns and Rusev are not my favorites but I dug the match they had cause they brought it too each other and tried to set tone for the show. Sasha is one of my favorites so I was gonna watch regardless but her and Charlotte brought me back feelings wise to when I saw the Foley HIAC matches live on PPV and thinking "what's happening next." I think Matt D is on the money in terms of watching a horror flick with these two. With Rollins vs Owens (cause the HIAC with Ambrose was like this too), it's an action movie where you expect the big explosions in very predictable ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I had it above Sasha vs. Bayley as a basis of comparison. Very much agree with that. On Goc's point -- if a majority of fans who pay for and watch the programming preferred Owens/Rollins they should absolutely run with it. I'd find that hard to believe, but far be it from me to suggest they cater to anything but the largest possible segment of the audience. If that feud and its developments post-HIAC move ratings and crowds go crazy for it then perhaps they hit something. Haven't seen anything since they crowned Owens or throughout this feud suggesting that's the case though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 LAW saying Sasha was originally supposed to go over but finish was changed earlier in the day. New something was up with those strange betting odds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I had it above Sasha vs. Bayley as a basis of comparison. Very much agree with that. On Goc's point -- if a majority of fans who pay for and watch the programming preferred Owens/Rollins they should absolutely run with it. I'd find that hard to believe, but far be it from me to suggest they cater to anything but the largest possible segment of the audience. If that feud and its developments post-HIAC move ratings and crowds go crazy for it then perhaps they hit something. Haven't seen anything since they crowned Owens or throughout this feud suggesting that's the case though. It's a match that has Seth Rollins & Kevin Owens in it. The denizens of wrestlingforum and the worst of wrestling twitter will rate it highly no matter what they do even if the entire match is a 15 minute extended sequence of that gif. So I don't put a lot of stock into it except to say "there sure are a lot of stupid wrestling fans these days" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravJ1979 Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Sasha/Charlotte HITC was great. Thought so during and after the match. Best match of the night. HITC done correctly. if it had blood it've been 5 stars. People who hated the finish are clueless IWC/Twitter fans who chant, "This is Awesome" after a power bomb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Agreed that the hate of the finish is way overblown. If you'd have had some 5 minute finishing stretch of trading nearfalls then people would have popped at the end when the finish was supposed to suck the air out of the building and make people upset that Sasha lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codysseus Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I thought the women's title match was great. Charlotte's greatest performance by a long shot and Sasha's best babyface performance by just as much. Sasha's bumping, selling, and sense of urgency were just top notch. Great wrasslin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I wasn't feeling the PPV at all at first. It was me, not the show. Stil, I turned it off and did something else for a while. I went back to it before bed and cherry-picked what I actually wanted to see. Rusev/Reigns: Watched this live and didn't think much of it. Cruiserweight match: It sucked. Kendrick winning was a surprise, but he was arguably the MVP of the CWC, so I'm all for it. Owens/Rollins: Goofy as shit but exactly what I expected and fun for what it was. The women: Great match and worthy of the main event spot, even if the finish was deflating and a head-scratcher. I didn't care about anything else on the show. Maybe I missed "great rasslin'," but if I don't give a fuck about the characters, storylines, and matches, why bother? It doesn't sound like I missed anything important anyway. Do I love Bayley, Cesaro, and Enzo/Cass? Sure. But I can do without seeing them in meaningless matches, feuds, and situations that amount to nothing and don't mean anything 24 hours later. I think I'm going to be watching all future live events this way (except for NXT, which is short enough and good enough to watch live all the way through). I can't believe how much more enjoyable it was this way. Slogging through a bloated 3-4 hour PPV is an exercise in torturous masochism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Agreed that the hate of the finish is way overblown. If you'd have had some 5 minute finishing stretch of trading nearfalls then people would have popped at the end when the finish was supposed to suck the air out of the building and make people upset that Sasha lost. The thing to me about the finish is that it was a combination of WWE's bizarre hard on for beating people in their hometown and WCW's habit of ruining good matches with shit finishes to make sure the crowd goes home deflated. I mean, it wasn't even that the crowd was upset that Sasha lost, it was more confusion and "what the fuck was that", which I can't believe was the desired reaction. It's hard to not get all armchair psychologist on why this company seems to enjoy never giving the fans what they want. I get that you can't do it every time, but you can't *not* do it every time either or you end up with what they have now where heels are the top babyfaces since the actual babyfaces are losers who never win when it counts (except Roman, but everyone hates him). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I thought the women's match was pretty good but then I also got distracted by the godawful chat I was watching it with that had people whining about everything not looking clean or exact and making corny Botchamania jokes. So I might like it more on a rewatch. Considering Charlotte threw Sasha around on a table right before hitting her alternate finisher I didn't really see how it was deflating. I just think people got caught off guard by Charlotte winning. I can't believe how much I used to like Rollins when he was in the Shield. But the tag format and his whole gimmick just being a dick and making fun of opponent's taunts and moves probably hid a lot of his bad habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stro Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I'd give anything for a wrestler to show up that doesn't give a damn about PC, getting sued or trying to sell more goddamn shirts... but that'll never happen. Pro-wrestling has been changed forever. I'm not sure what being PC has to do with any of that, but sure. I took this as a reference to WWE-PC: putting smiles on faces because it's all for the fans!, keeping it family friendly and smooth around the edges, lots of loud charity work and confused advocacy, etc. Heels who wear pink ribbons and Connor's Cure badges. This has always been a weird complaint to me. As if people who cheat to win matches don't care about women or children in their lives or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Top 10 seems a bit like hyberbole, I'm not sure it would touch these: Sgt. Slaughter vs. Pat Patterson (5/4/81) Sgt. Slaughter vs. Iron Sheik (6/1/84) Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (3/20/94) Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin (3/23/97) John Cena vs. Justin Bradshaw Layfield (5/22/05) John Cena vs. Umaga (01/28/07) John Cena vs Brock Lesnar (4/29/12) Roman Reigns vs. Brock Lesnar (3/29/15) Bob Backlund vs. Ken Patera (5/19/80) Bob Backlund vs. Greg Valentine (11/23/81) Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage (3/29/87) Brock Lesnar vs. The Undertaker (10/20/02) Randy Orton vs. Mick Foley (4/18/04) Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns vs. Dean Ambrose (2/21/16) You'd probably stick one of the Tito / Greg matches in there too and if you held a gun to my head probably also HBK / Razor from Mania X. I'd have it above Ted / Savage MSG though, which made my top 100 matches for the WTBBP special when we did it. Would also have it above Flair / Savage from Mania 8. My immediate immediate thoughts that I said to Matt & Stacey the moment the match ended and I closed the window were: "1. I love 2016 for making that possible but I hate 2016 for making blood in that match not possible. 2. That was the best WWE match since what Slaughter vs Sheik? Ever? Its in the conversation. 3. Can a brother get a motherfucking Sasha Banks comp already?" I'm not sure its better than something like Sheik vs Slaughter or Bret vs Austin or Cena vs Daniel Bryan, but I think it belongs in that conversation. Of course, I need to watch this like 50 more times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 If Bret dropped the ring bell and Austin never bled and the crowd lost interest even before the stupid finish, and maybe if Austin did a drop kick after the sharpshooter like Sasha did the twisting triple suplex when her back was supposed to be fucked, then it would be in the conversation. I liked the match but wonder when the enthusiasm for the main will cool off because it's interesting reading all this hate for Rollins-Owens when Charlotte and Sasha had similarly over-planned table spots that couldn't even be executed. And I can almost see goc's point that the finish did exactly what it set out to do but with the last few matches these two have had, the first thing I thought when Sasha's back "gave out" was that she botched the spot. Then the mess with the tables made it more comedic with Sasha rolling off like a doll and then just getting pinned. I don't know if that was inexperience or trying to protect Sasha somehow by not actually slamming her into the table to finally break it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I liked the match but wonder when the enthusiasm for the main will cool off Yeah, less than 24 hours is WAY TOO LONG to be excited about the first women's main event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fando Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Hooray for them. But saying top 10 in history is fucking nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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