[2016-11-20-WWE-Survivor Series] Goldberg vs Brock Lesnar

[GOTNW]

This ruled. The atmosphere was great with the crowd being red hot for Goldberg and chanting for him even before the match started, making it feel every bit as special as they'd hyped it up to be. The match was executed pretty much flawlessly-Goldberg shrugging off Lesnar's shove was a magical moment, and the big transition was as picture perfect as it gets. You just can't time Spears any better than Goldberg did here. It's impossibly. Usually you get at least a second or two for a wrestler to get in position and either stand there and eat a move or set up a counter but here Goldberg just took Lesnar down right away and it looked amazing. I don't feel comfortable slapping a star rating on it straight away, but I'm thinking it's probably better than the Lesnar/Orton match. Maybe giving ***1/2 or 7/10 to a minute and a half match with five moves sounds insane to some, but I feel like this absolutely warrants it.

 

edit: after thinking about it more and a rewatch or two I'd say the staying power of it is closer to ***1/4 so that is my grade now.

[Grimmas]

5 stars!! Goldberg chants were going on before the show started. They were going on during Brock's entrance. It was magically being in the building.

 

EDIT: Not really 5 stars, but damn it was awesome. 3.5 sounds right, maybe?

[JKWebb]

This was a cool, unique, and very intriguing moment. Much like a lot of Brock Lesnar lately, it's very hard to compare to anything else. It's different. It has a sort of shoot feel to it. I'm really wanting to see how it all plays out, and I assume that's what they were going for. Goldberg looked amazing for his age. It straight up felt like 1997/1998 as soon as they knocked on his dressing room door. They shocked everyone with this, and there certainly is a buzz. Positive for some, and negative for others. They have people talking. Brock Lesnar sold this so well. His facial expressions were great, and his selling of both spears was just fantastic. Paul Heyman did a great job too for the little amount of time he was on camera. I understand the complaints of people saying they should have saved this win for someone like Nakamura, which would have been perfect for fans like us. But, if you are trying to get some of the older fans to come back, then I guess you can see this as a way to get interest back for them, and maybe have Goldberg lose to someone at Mania and really put them over. I said this in the other thread, but I did see friends of mine that don't follow wrestling anymore posting video from WWE's facebook showing the opening moments of the match. I guess that's why I'm saying - that I want to see how it plays out before I make any judgments on anything.

[KawadaSmile]

It was actually the 2nd best match of the show for me, despite not really liking it being a squash. I was hoping something like Goldberg vs Norton were two bulky dudes beat the shit out of each other for 4 minutes until Goldberg gets the spear + jackhammer.

 

I have to say though, that with the story going to the match and the in-ring performances - facial expressions, overall build - they did a very nice job. For what it was, it was executed very nicely and I commend them for it.

 

Also it does have the benefit of sparking curiosity of what is going to come out of it.

[Jordan]

Loved this. Brock trying to laugh off Goldberg's shove and turning right around into a spear was perfect.

[Mrzfn]

Didn't care for this personally. If they had done this with someone like Jericho or Miz, I'd be fine, but Lesnar? Dude breaks the streak, squashes Cena, makes a joke of any current roster guy he goes up against, but old man Goldberg runs him over with ease. Maybe it works as an in-the-moment pop, but it just feels like bad storytelling to me.

[Microstatistics]

After a quick rewatch (doesn't hurt it's 1.5 minutes long) I realized the storytelling was definitely on point. Brock thinks he can casually dominate Goldberg like he has everyone else but gets shoved to the ground. He is stunned but tries to laugh it off, all cocky, but Goldberg catches him with a spear which ended up being a lethal blow. Another spear and jackhammer and it's over. Lesnar's arrogance got him in trouble and Goldberg was smart enough to get in the major kill shots early and end it. Good match. ***

 

This was kind of like Hashimoto-Ogawa for me where the bizarro world booking momentarily overshadowed the match quality.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

It was awesome. I wouldn't give it a star rating since it really amounts to an angle in the big picture but I fucking loved it. Goldberg is a draw for me.

[NotJayTabb]

Always been a Goldberg fan, so this was great to watch. What I loved is the timing of the spears. No Lesnar having to wait around for a few seconds, watching Goldberg spear him like a chump - the second he was in place, he was getting speared again. That little bit of execution made the whole deal work so well

[Superstar Sleeze]

Brock Lesnar is the greatest the freak athlete and artistic genius of our generation. His wrestling IQ is amazing. He just gets pro wrestling on a level that so few do. Brock Lesnar is the best seller on the roster. We have seen that against Cena, HHH, Roman and the Undertaker. This may have been his most masterful performance yet. Brock Lesnar MADE this match. Brock Lesnar MADE Goldberg look like a million bucks. The entire magnificent story of this match is told through Brock and his ability to convey intensity leading to cockiness leading to oh shit I am in trouble leading to out cold. A pro wrestling masterpiece.

 

My biggest regret of GWE now is not putting Brock Lesnar in my Top Ten. What an amazing pro wrestler!

[GOTNW]

Brock is definitely a very good bumper and even quite good at selling but his understanding of it doesn't go beyond the surface level, and for the type of role they've casted him for it's a grave fault. There's a world of difference between being able to sell in the moment and sell the opponent and yourself to the crowd while winning (sometimes dominantly) like 90s Jumbo or Hashimoto could do. That's not something Lesnar is capable of and why a simple match structure like this plays much better to his strengths. If all you need is a minute of quality direct "I'm hurt from a move I was just hit with" selling to think someone is a top ten talent ever....

[Superstar Sleeze]

How can you say he does not have a strong grasp of pro wrestling when so many "great" wrestlers blow off selling or are so afraid to look weak. Brock is so secure with himself as a badass that he can go out there bump and sell for any opponent and this dates back to 2002. The selflessness is a direct result of understanding the logic of pro wrestling. Every fan I know in real life which is five say Brock matches feel different, they feel like events, spectacles. That's Brock knowing how to be a monster and how to credibly vulnerable. Basically he is a better, more authentic Vader. If I had Vader at 16, I should have Brock higher.

[GOTNW]

 

How can you say he does not have a strong grasp of pro wrestling

I didn't say that. I said his understanding of selling doesn't go beyond the surface level. Specifically, selling in a way that makes makes matches great. Brock Lesnar very much understand pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is about conning people into worshipping you and getting paid and he is very successful at both.

 

so many "great" wrestlers blow off selling or are so afraid to look weak

I'll make a MIS thread about selling and limbwork soon to talk more about this. Who are the great wrestlers? Why are you bringing them up? Are they wrestlers you know I think are great? What does that have to do with anything?

 

Brock is so secure with himself as a badass

 

he can go out there bump and sell for any opponent and this dates back to 2002.

Bumping and selling is kinda what pro wrestlers of all sizes do for a job. But Lesnar doesn't really work that way anymore. At least not longer than a minute

 

The selflessness is a direct result of understanding the logic of pro wrestling.

 

That's Brock knowing how to be a monster and how to credibly vulnerable.

This just isn't true. It isn't based in reality. It's not how post-return Brock Lesnar works his matches efficiently. There's one exception, and that's it. I'm not claiming that he doesn't have the potential or even knowledge to work that way, but he just doesn't.

 

vs Cena 2012 ER-Lesnar kills him the entire match, Cena hits two moves and wins

three matches vs Triple H-this may be Lesnar playing vulnerable monster but the matches weren't acclaimed and killed his heat and aura

vs Punk Summerslam 2013-great match, the one exception of Lesnar being as great as you're claiming he is.

vs Big Show Royal Rumble 2014-what even was this match? Lesnar got hit by a move, sold it for a bit, then came, then hit a bunch of chairshots and went over in two minutes?

vs Undertaker Wrestlemania-a mess

vs Cena Summerslam 2014-the infamous squash

vs Cena rematch-another dominant Lesnar performance, with Cena getting a little more in but having to basically spam every big move he has to put Lesnar in danger, only for Lesnar to no sell it all after the match

vs Reigns Wrestlemania 2015-again, Reigns has to spam every big move he has just like Cena did to put Lesnar in any sort of danger and it still doesn't work

 

then you have the matches versus young talent for whom it was argued just hanging with Lesnar would elevate them. you know........Ambrose, Rollins, Harper, Rusev. didn't happen.

 

Orton match was more Lesnar being super dominant and only selling for finishers and huge stuff

 

So other than the Punk match where are the examples of Lesnar doing that type of vulnerable selling? The triple threat matches where two guys team up on him, spam big moves and then Lesnar comes back from that? The Royal Rumble where Lesnar just killed everyone in his way? Or is the best example other than the Punk match him selling for Undertaker because Undertaker was actually presented as being on his level? Maybe he doesn't want to *really* sell for anyone that's not presented as a WWE canon legend, but that doesn't mean I'm not free to critique him for his work.

[cactus]

After their dud at Wrestlemania XX, many fans had their reservations about this being any better, given that over 12 years have pasted since then. No one wants to see Lesnar and Goldberg stink up the place with another 15 minute snoozefest. They keep it brief and everything is booked around Goldberg's limited skill set and use his monster charisma and intensity to create a memorable main event. Goldberg shoves Lesnar, Spear, Jackhammer, home time. Lesnar sells the shock with his great facials and Heyman freaks out. It almost feels like sacrilege rating something so brief so highly (this goes a grand total of 86 seconds!), but there's zero wasted movement and the crowd lap up every second.

★★★½