Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[W2BTD]

Blaming Mexican culture for not being "cool" enough for wrestling fans strikes me as odd in world where Lucha Underground exists, when you really can't get any more cool or hip than the style & presentation of that show. Meanwhile, the NJPW television show is a stoic, boring, overdubbed collection of second run matches where 60-year old Jim Ross is pushed as the draw.

 

But hey, Lucha Underground is probably the "wrong" kind of lucha. Sort of like Meltzer, THE EVIL TASTEMAKER~! who watches live lucha three times per week and tweets about it while doing so, liking the "wrong" guys like Volador Jr instead of the "right" guys like Virus. I'd be willing to bet Dave has watched more lucha this year than puro, and constantly praises it while doing so.

 

So let me get this straight. Some of you are whining that lucha doesn't get a chance, but then when it DOES get praised, it somehow doesn't count, because it's the "wrong kind" of lucha. Hmm. I have a million other problems with that Parties post, but it didn't exactly help the idea opined earlier in the thread that lucha fans are arrogant as fuck, an idea that I scoffed at when I read it a couple of days ago, but that I'm starting to come around on after reading some of this bullshit.

[stro]

The lucha wall just got 10 feet higher, apparently.

[Dylan Waco]

Maybe I'm in the bubble, but I'm curious as to where you guys are encountering fans who categorically dismiss all wrestling from Mexico. I'm sure there are random dudes on Twitter who do that, just like there are ones who think that puro is just Japanese men chopping each other. But I don't know of anyone whose opinion carries weight in any organized fan community expressing that view.

 

My own view is that lucha is more ignored by the major outlets than it is rejected, casually dismissed, et. I suppose you could argue that ignoring it is akin to casual dismissal, but to me it's a different thing. I do think that it reflects very poorly on certain historical projects, or even awards processes, for lucha to be routinely ignored the way it usually is by almost all of the house organs (PWI, Observer, Torch, et.), but that shouldn't be mistaken as me thinking it should be viewed uncritically. I just think it's telling to look at WON Awards, the WON HOF, or even just general historical research trends and see how lucha is treated vis a vis Japanese and U.S. wrestling

[Microstatistics]

Summary of thread which has remained the case throughout from page 1 till now:

 

1. Some people don't like the fact that other people don't like lucha.

 

2. Rather than accept the fact they just don't like it, they instead try to come up with other explanations cultural or contextual.

 

3. People come out and say they don't like lucha, get accused of trolling or are attacked personally.

 

What did I miss? This has been the whole thread. It's not awful because of those of us who have just baldly stated the fact we don't like it, it's awful because people have insisted on over complicating the response to that. I suspect the net result is that people want to speak to those lucha fans less not more.

 

You are the one who derailed the entire thread with your pointless hot take (lucha mostly sucks) and then got defensive when people called you out for it. Obviously people are going to get upset and look for explanations when you arrogantly dismiss an entire genre. Then you accuse lucha fans of being thin skinned even though any criticism of 80s US wrestling or Ric Flair or anything you regard highly causes you to respond in a hostile manner. This is not a personal attack on you but I wanted to point out some of the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance.

 

 

My take on the topic is this: Classic puro is very similar to American wrestling so it is very easy for people to get into it. Lucha is its own thing, a completely unique style and genre and so is completely new to people used to American wrestling. Some people are able to get into it, some aren't. Simple as that.

[stro]

You know, Ric Flair and lucha have a lot in common. Mostly rote, repetitive, comedy dumb shit that people shouldn't pay as much attention to as they do. Plus or minus racism.

[Herodes]

Parv wrote his essay decrying the "wrong" type of fan, rallying against those who didn't follow his view of convention and claiming that anyone who didn't follow his view was intentionally trying to make a statement. It came across as incredibly whiny and bitter, not to mention arrogant. Lest we forget that in addition to the infamous "post script" there was also the Rude v Dibiase tantrum and the Flair podcasts. I bring this up in direct response to the claim about Lucha fans being thin-skinned, by the man who made GWE about the right vs wrong type of fans

[JerryvonKramer]

More total deflection and derailment that is not relevant to this thread.

 

GWE isn't relevant to this thread. I'm proud of my Fair for Flair mini-series and stand by it. My post-script speaks for itself and I stand by it.

 

Stop deflecting.

[Dylan Waco]

He's not deflecting. He's illustrating that a claim you made above is demonstrably false as reflected in your own behavior.

 

Edit: Having said that, I do agree that it largely doesn't matter if you are guilty of the things you claim lucha fans routinely do.

[Herodes]

Exactly, it's not deflecting, it's pointing out hypocrisy entirely based on statements you have made in this thread, hence entirely relevant.

[Dylan Waco]

Here are some questions - is it possible to investigate why a certain style, wrestler, et. isn't as popular as another style, wrestler, et. without f condescension? Is it ever relevant to look at cultural, social, political, or contextual issues to explore these questions?

[JerryvonKramer]

Exactly, it's not deflecting, it's pointing out hypocrisy entirely based on statements you have made in this thread, hence entirely relevant.

You didn't get the nature of my GWE stance clearly or you wouldn't be saying this stuff. My point was only ever that it shouldn't be a favourites list. There is zero value in rehearsing those arguments now. Zero. Entirely irrelevant.

[stro]

Here are some questions - is it possible to investigate why a certain style, wrestler, et. isn't as popular as another style, wrestler, et. without being accused of condescension? Is it ever relevant to look at cultural, social, political, or contextual issues to explore these questions?

 

I think accusing people who don't like a very specific style with its own internal logic, bumping, and selling style that doesn't really exist anywhere else as being racists who dislike the culture of the country of origin for the style because it is poor and dirty is not the best place to start.

 

Since I think both Kenny Omega and Elgin suck (especially Elgin), I wonder if that means I dislike Canadians and Canada because people are nice and it is cold there. Disgusting.

[Herodes]

It's entirely relevant. You point out in THIS THREAD about the thin-skinned nature of Lucha fans, I point out demonstrable proof of the hypocrisy of your statement given your thin-skinned behavior during and after GWE when you explicitly claim that people who prefer Lawler to Flair or Taue to Kobashi are being intentionally contrarian and thus undermining people who don't conform to your bland convention and orthodoxy by assigning ulterior motives, and come across as very fragile when fans aren't being "correct". I know you want to get away from GWE but it's defined you and when you make ridiculous posts on this thread you can't claim GWE immunity.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's entirely relevant. You point out in THIS THREAD about the thin-skinned nature of Lucha fans, I point out demonstrable proof of the hypocrisy of your statement given your thin-skinned behavior during and after GWE when you explicitly claim that people who prefer Lawler to Flair or Taue to Kobashi are being intentionally contrarian and thus undermining people who don't conform to your bland convention and orthodoxy by assigning ulterior motives, and come across as very fragile when fans aren't being "correct". I know you want to get away from GWE but it's defined you and when you make ridiculous posts on this thread you can't claim GWE immunity.

All this is crap and you've come across badly in this thread.

 

In GWE I said "make a dispassionate assessment of their career as objectively as you can."

 

In this thread I've said "some people who aren't into Lucha think it sucks and it comes down to taste"

 

You've said it's about cultural imperialism. Let's focus on that and not on my perfectly legitimate GWE stances.

[WingedEagle]

Here are some questions - is it possible to investigate why a certain style, wrestler, et. isn't as popular as another style, wrestler, et. without f condescension? Is it ever relevant to look at cultural, social, political, or contextual issues to explore these questions?

 

The answer to the first question is very hopefully yes.

 

As to the second, those issues may very well be relevant. But unless someone comes out and explicitly demonstrates or acknowledges their relevance in how they view a particular style, doing so would require some incredible levels of assumption and judgment about why people watch what they do and what it says about people, when there is in fact zero basis for doing so. Its a quick and easy way to turn heel, as Parties just demonstrated, yet that approach lacks any and all depth, relevance or insight.

 

There are almost certainly more than enough points to discuss and compare about various styles -- their development, access, presentation and relation to the "local" style if discussing across different territories/countries, among a host of others, that would provide for an interesting look at these styles through history without resorting to throwing stones in the name of culture wars and biases. On the other hand, that sort of nuanced approach doesn't lend itself to any quick conclusions about why so & so audience doesn't care for the style and thus may not be entirely appealing to folks who demand a purely black or white answer to questions that call for gray. But, hey, welcome to the world today. Why should wrestling discussions be any different?

[Herodes]

No clearly not crap at all, as pointed out by others. You've come across badly not just during his thread but during the GWE process perhaps starting with your Rude/Dibiase debacle and subsequent manipulation of what should be a landmark, once every ten year ranking of wrestlers into an agenda against the "wrong" type of fan which ended the whole process on a sour note.

[Grimmas]

People who are against Lucha seem convinced Lucha fans are irrate when Lucha is put down.

 

How is wondering why it's ignored in coverage and overall narratives being irrate?

[ohtani's jacket]

Summary of thread which has remained the case throughout from page 1 till now:

 

1. Some people don't like the fact that other people don't like lucha.

 

2. Rather than accept the fact they just don't like it, they instead try to come up with other explanations cultural or contextual.

 

3. People come out and say they don't like lucha, get accused of trolling or are attacked personally.

 

What did I miss? This has been the whole thread. It's not awful because of those of us who have just baldly stated the fact we don't like it, it's awful because people have insisted on over complicating the response to that. I suspect the net result is that people want to speak to those lucha fans less not more.

 

If you've been a lucha fan for any length of time then you're used to the fact that it's not popular. There were plenty of people who posted in this thread that they've never been able to get into lucha that weren't accused or trolling or attacked personally. Grimmas posed the question of why Japanese wrestling is more popular than lucha and people spelled out the reasons why Japanese wrestling has traditionally been more popular. It was you that decided it was simply a matter of personal taste while at the same time suggesting the fact that so many people dislike lucha that your criticisms of it are validated. The entire thing boils down to the fact that you think you're right about lucha and other people are wrong. It seems to irk you that people like a form of wrestling that doesn't adhere to your personal need for suplexes and snugness, or that people read your takes on lucha and think you misunderstand it. The only time you really praise it is when they do some armwork that looks like Steamboat vs. Bob Orton Jr. or when it's structured in a way that you can identify as heat & shine segments. People don't have a problem with other people disliking lucha. They have a problem with criticisms that are unfair. Honestly speaking, at this point lucha is like prog rock to you, or metal or jazz. Or music in a foreign language. At some point it's better to let it go than argue that free jazz is shit or prog rock is wankery. That has nothing to do with lucha fans having thin skin. According to this thread, lucha fans are arrogant hipsters. Arrogant hipsters have rather robust skin, I would think. At least they probably think so.

[JerryvonKramer]

No clearly not crap at all, as pointed out by others. You've come across badly not just during his thread but during the GWE process perhaps starting with your Rude/Dibiase debacle and subsequent manipulation of what should be a landmark, once every ten year ranking of wrestlers into an agenda against the "wrong" type of fan which ended the whole process on a sour note.

I was saying Rude's 92 over indexes vs Ted's whole career. I got angry and apologised, you bringing this up now is deflection. The GWE confirmed every major position I held and restored some faith that common sense prevailed over the ballot. Eccentric positions came out in the wash. The sour taste was left by people being hysterical on the results thread which I didn't post in after #100.

 

You wanted derailment. Now what?

[Herodes]

"Common sense"? According to who? You're the champion of bland, middle of the road thought, do you apply the same "common sense" approach to music, literature and film?

[JerryvonKramer]

You are telling the community that the results of their list was bland and middle of the road.

 

And you are wondering why phrases like "arrogant hipster" are floating around? Keep going.

[Herodes]

Not the community, just you

[JerryvonKramer]

Maybe take it to PMs then to save everyone else having to read this shit.

[Herodes]

Let's revert to Dylan's questions:

 

Here are some questions - is it possible to investigate why a certain style, wrestler, et. isn't as popular as another style, wrestler, et. without f condescension? Is it ever relevant to look at cultural, social, political, or contextual issues to explore these questions?

[Dylan Waco]

 

 

Here are some questions - is it possible to investigate why a certain style, wrestler, et. isn't as popular as another style, wrestler, et. without being accused of condescension? Is it ever relevant to look at cultural, social, political, or contextual issues to explore these questions?

I think accusing people who don't like a very specific style with its own internal logic, bumping, and selling style that doesn't really exist anywhere else as being racists who dislike the culture of the country of origin for the style because it is poor and dirty is not the best place to start.

 

Since I think both Kenny Omega and Elgin suck (especially Elgin), I wonder if that means I dislike Canadians and Canada because people are nice and it is cold there. Disgusting.

I wasn't saying I agreed with Parties, was looking for a specific answer to the questions I asked.