Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[Grimmas]

No, Jerry. Only racism could be behind this!

Keep your bullshit aside please.

[ohtani's jacket]

To think the way Americans view Mexico and Japan has nothing to do with this is ridiculous

 

Nobody in this thread has demonstrated any sort of bigotry or racism toward Mexico or lucha libre. I don't think it's fair to say that people dislike lucha libre because of any sort of underlying bigotry. The reasons people have given for disliking lucha have been largely stylistic. To be honest, this smacks of a thinly veiled dig at "Japanophiles," a bone of contention that is never far from the surface when it comes to discussing why foreigners are interested in Japanese pro-wrestling.

 

There are all sorts of political, historical and socio-economic reasons why Japanese culture has been exported to a greater extent than Mexican culture. Japan is also famous (some might say infamous) for copying ideas and improving them. It's no surprise then that some people feel the Japanese were able to copy American wrestling and improve and innovate it. What hasn't been addressed so far is that many people get into puroresu after becoming fed up with the American product. For those fans who are not yet ready to give up on wrestling, there seems to be a clear and obvious reason why they gravitate toward Japanese pro-wrestling over lucha, and that reason is not only the fact that Japanese wrestling is more prevalent in online discussion (which it is), but because Japanese wrestling, for the most part, takes itself seriously and puts wrestling first. That appealed to your old-school type who believed the name on the marque says wrestling, and it still appeals today to anyone who's fed up with the modern day product. It's arguably less relevant today given that the WWE delivers a far superior in-ring product to any point in its existence and the wrestling boom in Japan burst along with the economic bubble. Indy wrestling seems to be doing well in the US these days as well. But traditionally Japanese wrestling was the clear alternative and it's pretty obvious why it would appeal more than the heavily stylised lucha.

 

If you had shown 20 year old me Kawada vs. Misawa or When Worlds Collide, I would have preferred Kawada vs. Misawa to anything on the When Worlds Collide show. And that really was the point of comparison back in the day -- All Japan heavies vs. hot period AAA -- partially due to the coverage in the Observer but also because of the familiarity that people had with the WCW luchadores. Look at the DVDVR Best of the 90s list for lucha. It barely has any CMLL at all. CMLL only really became recognized in tape trading circles when the Santo heel turn became hot. It wasn't until the mid-00s that a lot of us went through the back catalogue and discovered all of the stuff that had been overlooked. Lucha is, and always has been, far behind Japanese wrestling when it comes to chronicling the matches that are good. Tape traders began dealing Japanese wrestling in the early 80s. MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana didn't become a pimped match until 25 years later. That's how far behind the eight ball lucha is. It's also the reason why lucha doesn't get critically evaluated in a proper way, IMO. We're simply not at that stage yet.

 

If you're specifically talking about present day stuff, as in why can't people check out lucha matches that are being pimped as MOTYC contenders when prepping for their end-of-year lists, especially with the accessibility of lucha matches these days; that is a different question. I agree with you that if you're serious about those sort of year-end lists you should take everything into consideration even if it's not a style you particularly enjoy. But it really depends on whether it's something you're doing for yourself or part of some sort of wider forum project.

[Cap]

Also I feel like there were El Bandito style Mexican heels in Texas territories. Think of heel Guerreros.

 

And there were babyfaces like Jose Lothario, but they just didn't work like luchadores.

great points here and in your post before it. I had always sort of known that Mil's influence was far reaching and intuitively understood much of it was politics, but hadn't really thought about how that might be connected here. I also never really realized how I didn't think of the Guerreros (when in American territories) luchadors, even though I have notes about the style clearly influencing some matches i reviewed.

[Grimmas]

You miss my point oj. It's not that anyone here is being racist, however to pretend the reason Lucha has gained no ground and has no coverage or narratives has nothing to do with racism seems bizarre. Japan is neat and cool. Mexicans is nothing.

 

Personal and overall coverage are different things.

[Matt D]

The people pushing all or nothing mentalities here are doing no one else any favors, and that's on both sides.

[ohtani's jacket]

Also I feel like there were El Bandito style Mexican heels in Texas territories. Think of heel Guerreros.

 

And there were babyfaces like Jose Lothario, but they just didn't work like luchadores.

 

Black Gordman and the Great Goliath used to draw heat from the Mexican fans in the Southwest and Southern California by claiming they were from New Mexico instead of Mexico.

[stro]

 

No, Jerry. Only racism could be behind this!

Keep your bullshit aside please.

 

 

Oh yes, it's MY bullshit that you and others are implying people not liking lucha have to have some latent or explicit issue with Mexico and Mexicans. My misunderstanding. Just like it was MY bullshit that got you so upset about being able to look at Chris Hero.

 

I hate to break it to you, telling people they are racist for not liking boring ass Black Terry matches will not make them like it.

[ohtani's jacket]

You miss my point oj. It's not that anyone here is being racist, however to pretend the reason Lucha has gained no ground and has no coverage or narratives has nothing to do with racism seems bizarre. Japan is neat and cool. Mexicans is nothing.

 

Personal and overall coverage are different things.

 

But if racism is involved then surely the overall narrative would be that they're both inferior to homegrown American product. Why would the coverage be less bigoted toward Japan than Mexico? That doesn't make much sense to me considering the threat that Japan was to American industry at the height of its post-war recovery. Are you saying people are less bigoted toward Asians than Mexicans? That's a legitimate question, btw. I come from a country with a large Asian population but no Mexican or Latino community to speak of.

 

Japan being seen as "cool" and Mexico as "nothing" may play a part in how the different wrestling cultures are perceived but I think we should leave racism out of the debate until there's actual coverage that displays a bigoted attitude toward Mexican wrestling. Besides, as Jerome pointed out, lucha's imagery is considered cool in many circles, not just in Parisian cafes but in Japan too. In fact, the lucha mask is more well known around the world and more instantly recognisble than anything to come out of Japan wrestling-wise. Japanese wrestling's popularity among American fans rode a wave of Japanese cultural exports that began with cars, televsions and stereo walkmans and crossed over into comics and movies and toys and Saturday morning cartoons. That constant exposure to Japanese cultural exports shaped an image of Japan as a place where all this cool shit comes from. And to be honest, it became right after the war during the American occupation where GIs would take back traditional Japanese gifts to their families and spread the exoticism of geishas and Japanese tea-houses and what have you.

 

But to me, that's political, historical and socio-economic. It's possibly an example of oriental exoticism, but the fact of the matter is that Japanese culture had champions like Donald Ritchie. If not for Donald Ritchie, Japanese cinema would be far less known than it is. Japanese cinema from the studio system days is far more well known and revered than Mexican cinema from the same period. I mean, Japanese wrestling vs. lucha has NOTHING on the lack of recognition that Mexican cinema has received compared to Japanese films. Personally, I've made an effort to watch as much old Mexican cinema as I can find, but if we're being honest, the Japanese studios had more money and the standard of cinematography was higher. And that's the same battle lucha faces with its production values. Personally, I like old grainy lucha footage with poorly lit arenas but many people are turned off by the poor mic'ing as well as the camerawork and editing. They're common complaints that are exasperated by the confusing rules and often chaotic nature of the bouts.

 

Having said that, there is undeniably an element of people wishing they could someday visit Japan to go on their dream wrestling trip. Mexico is seen as more dangerous. Whether there's any truth to that matter or it's just plain bigotry people can decide for themselves, but Japan is definitely seen as safer than Mexico.

[Jmare007]

To think the way Americans view Mexico and Japan has nothing to do with this is ridiculous

 

To me feels ridiculous because I'm from Chile, have way more cultural connections with Mexico (shit, even my sister has been living there since 2010) and have NEVER liked the style that much. When I was a kid I found it kinda intriguing but it never really grabbed me. Puro in the other hand clicked with me from the get go. I had no fucking clue who Meltzer was in 2004 but I downloaded a link from a thread that was pimping Kobashi and was hooked till this day. I also read places that praised lucha workers (specially Santo) but never once I felt as compelled to seek footage as I did puro.

 

And when I tried to give lucha a chance again I ended up having the problems I've already mentioned in this an other threads.

 

There's no cultural nothing on my part. I watched Chavo del Ocho since as long as I remember (i still laugh at Don Ramon's fuckery and Chespirito in general), same thing with anime. I just found a style more compelling that the other, there isn't a bigger, deeper meaning on it than that. So I can understand people feeling that some of you guys are reaching with this racial/cultural take on this issue. I know my case is different because I'm not from the US but I can see people feeling like me instead of something "deeper".

[stro]

Damn dawg, everyone knows Mexicans and South Americans don't get along. Quit letting your cultural and racial biases get in the way of enjoying ewoks and ninja turtles doing arm drags on the Corona mat.

[cpst]

You miss my point oj. It's not that anyone here is being racist, however to pretend the reason Lucha has gained no ground and has no coverage or narratives has nothing to do with racism seems bizarre. Japan is neat and cool. Mexicans is nothing.

 

Personal and overall coverage are different things.

To establish the claim that lucha is less popular than puro because of racism, at some point you have to actually point out someone being racist, rather than just softly and broadly appealing to racism in the surrounding culture, which doesn't predict one way or the other whether someone will like or dislike lucha.

 

And who are you talking about with the "overall coverage"? PWO is such a small cross-section of total wrestling fandom, yet you are asking personal questions of people posting in this thread.

[Jmare007]

Damn dawg, everyone knows Mexicans and South Americans don't get along. Quit letting your cultural and racial biases get in the way of enjoying ewoks and ninja turtles doing arm drags on the Corona mat.

:lol:

[Grimmas]

 

You miss my point oj. It's not that anyone here is being racist, however to pretend the reason Lucha has gained no ground and has no coverage or narratives has nothing to do with racism seems bizarre. Japan is neat and cool. Mexicans is nothing.

 

Personal and overall coverage are different things.

To establish the claim that lucha is less popular than puro because of racism, at some point you have to actually point out someone being racist, rather than just softly and broadly appealing to racism in the surrounding culture, which doesn't predict one way or the other whether someone will like or dislike lucha.

 

And who are you talking about with the "overall coverage"? PWO is such a small cross-section of total wrestling fandom, yet you are asking personal questions of people posting in this thread.

 

Wrestling coverage that we follow and the narratives built are American. Americans think Japan is cool, and have a lot of issues with Mexicans. Those are true statements.

 

Lucha is dismissed by overall coverage, so we are left with few explantations

 

1) lucha is inferior to puro

2) lucha is very difficult to get into, and that barrier is too much

3) there is something else going on here

 

Is it ridiculous to think that a culture that thinks Japan is really cool and that is ok with voting in a President that says he will deport all illegal Mexicans and build a wall around Mexico, would lead to some racist issues?

 

I am no way calling someone like Parv a racist. He's not.

 

However, since he got into other wrestling outside American, puro has been praised greatly and lucha dismissed. AJPW is greatest ever, El Dandy is a joke, , etc... etc...

 

those narratives came from American coverage.

 

It's probably a mix of a billion things, but to just dismiss any racism seems foolhearty.

 

stro can keep saying all he wants that people are claiming it's all about racism, but nobody has said that. He's either trolling or just can't read.

[gingears]

I am not sure there is a large cross-section between fans of Japanese wrestling and Donald Trump supporters. That certainly has not reflected my experience in exchanges with puro fans. I think it is also worth noting that Donald Trump did not win the popular vote and his statements about Mexico don't represent the majority of Americans. I am open to the idea that racism, or really more perceived racism, plays a role in American lucha coverage but using the election results as evidence of this is really unfair.

[Grimmas]

You think racism towards Mexicans started with Trump??

[stro]

I'd love to know how you seem to know that Americans think Japan = cool and Mexico = droolz, and therefore American wrestling fans like puro more than lucha. It's already been explained to you multiple times why puro has a bigger foothold than lucha, but you don't seem to want to accept it. So I'll put it into bullet points for you:

 

• There has been far more cross pollination and cross promotion between American/Canadian/Japanese promotions over the past 60 years
• Because of said cross promotion and pollination, it was easier and more accessible to get tapes of Japanese promotions in the 80s and 90s
• Japan took much more care preserving their recordings in general, which is why there is so much content so easily available online today
• Lucha is a pretty unique and strange style within the context of other pro wrestling styles, and it usually isn't something people used to other styles immediately latch on to
• Lucha is much more promo heavy than puro, meaning for people that don't speak the language, it is more difficult to follow storylines and angles than it is for puro

In case that isn't clear enough, I'll boil it down to its essence: Puro has always been easier to follow, therefore more people have always followed puro.

 

You might notice that there isn't anything in there about "something else" (sweet walking back, btw). Donald Trump doesn't speak for all Americans anymore than Trudeau speaks for all Canadians. To make a sweeping generalization of an entire population, and then another sweeping generalization of a minuscule sub-population of that group (total WWE viewers in the US = under 1% of the population) while trying to imply that people not liking what you like don't like it because of their sweeping generalizations on Mexico/Mexicans/Mexican culture is so incredibly lacking in self-awareness that you should be ashamed of yourself. Especially while your signature promotes shows about....PURO instead of lucha.

[Jmare007]

I don't perceive that people that are racist towards Mexicans see Japanese culture as "cool" or as superior. I have no doubt that people do think Japan is better or more intriguing or whatever, but I'm not sure that feeling correlates to racism.

 

Now, I'm saying that as a total outsider and as latino. I kinda feel that if someone from the US is really racist towards one culture, he kinda feels the same towards most of the others except US/Europe.

 

That and the arguments I've already made make it so hard to follow the argument some people are trying to make here. Maybe I'm an outlier but reading most of the post in this thread doesn't make me feel like one.

[gingears]

Of course not.

 

Is it ridiculous to think that a culture that thinks Japan is really cool and that is ok with voting in a President that says he will deport all illegal Mexicans and build a wall around Mexico, would lead to some racist issues?

This was the statement I was referring to. You speak of Americans as "a culture", apparently made up of Japanophiles (for lack of a better term) and Trump supporters.

 

It is my belief that those are two different cultures and, frankly, I'm not sure that either one of them really plays much of a role in the topic at hand.

 

I don't think either one accurately represents what I would consider American culture.

[cpst]

Wrestling coverage that we follow and the narratives built are American. Americans think Japan is cool, and have a lot of issues with Mexicans. Those are true statements.

Ironically, this might be the grossest statement of outgroup homogeneity in the thread. Also, in the 80s when Japanese tape-trading started (well before my time), wasn't there a wave of anti-Japanese sentiment in America during the Japanese economic boom?

 

Lucha is dismissed by overall coverage, so we are left with few explantations

 

1) lucha is inferior to puro

2) lucha is very difficult to get into, and that barrier is too much

3) there is something else going on here

 

Is it ridiculous to think that a culture that thinks Japan is really cool and that is ok with voting in a President that says he will deport all illegal Mexicans and build a wall around Mexico, would lead to some racist issues?

An essentially identical argument shows that Japanese music is more popular in the US than black music, which is laughably false. If your proposed explanation for why puro is more popular than lucha can't separate true conclusions from false ones, I'm not sure how useful it really is.

[Grimmas]

It's amazing people want to think I am claiming racism is the reason. I am just saying it's stupid to dismiss it so easily. Racism towards Mexicans is a long issue. In fact the majority of Americans feel they should deport "illegal immigrants".

 

Again, I'm not calling anybody here a racist.

 

It could very well be all the reasons stro said, but I don't see why racism gets completely thrown out without any discussion. Is it really that ridiculous to think it could have slightly influenced the people who influenced others?

 

For example, stro mentioned more Japanese people working in America, but why did less Mexicans work America? Was it all Mil Mascaras keeping them out, or is there a chance some racism towards lations could had come into play?

 

Racism may not have been an issue at all, but to dismiss it and get pissed at anyone saying it's a possibility seems ludicrous.

[Grimmas]

 

Wrestling coverage that we follow and the narratives built are American. Americans think Japan is cool, and have a lot of issues with Mexicans. Those are true statements.

Ironically, this might be the grossest statement of outgroup homogeneity in the thread. Also, in the 80s when Japanese tape-trading started (well before my time), wasn't there a wave of anti-Japanese sentiment in America during the Japanese economic boom?

 

Lucha is dismissed by overall coverage, so we are left with few explantations

 

1) lucha is inferior to puro

2) lucha is very difficult to get into, and that barrier is too much

3) there is something else going on here

 

Is it ridiculous to think that a culture that thinks Japan is really cool and that is ok with voting in a President that says he will deport all illegal Mexicans and build a wall around Mexico, would lead to some racist issues?

An essentially identical argument shows that Japanese music is more popular in the US than black music, which is laughably false. If your proposed explanation for why puro is more popular than lucha can't separate true conclusions from false ones, I'm not sure how useful it really is.

 

No, it doesn't at all.

[Jmare007]

It's amazing people want to think I am claiming racism is the reason. I am just saying it's stupid to dismiss it so easily. Racism towards Mexicans is a long issue. In fact the majority of Americans feel they should deport "illegal immigrants".

 

Again, I'm not calling anybody here a racist.

 

It could very well be all the reasons stro said, but I don't see why racism gets completely thrown out without any discussion. Is it really that ridiculous to think it could have slightly influenced the people who influenced others?

 

For example, stro mentioned more Japanese people working in America, but why did less Mexicans work America? Was it all Mil Mascaras keeping them out, or is there a chance some racism towards lations could had come into play?

 

Racism may not have been an issue at all, but to dismiss it and get pissed at anyone saying it's a possibility seems ludicrous.

 

It kinda feels like people have been making arguments about why racism is not a factor and you keep asking "but why not?".

[Migs]

 

 

You miss my point oj. It's not that anyone here is being racist, however to pretend the reason Lucha has gained no ground and has no coverage or narratives has nothing to do with racism seems bizarre. Japan is neat and cool. Mexicans is nothing.

 

Personal and overall coverage are different things.

To establish the claim that lucha is less popular than puro because of racism, at some point you have to actually point out someone being racist, rather than just softly and broadly appealing to racism in the surrounding culture, which doesn't predict one way or the other whether someone will like or dislike lucha.

 

And who are you talking about with the "overall coverage"? PWO is such a small cross-section of total wrestling fandom, yet you are asking personal questions of people posting in this thread.

 

Wrestling coverage that we follow and the narratives built are American. Americans think Japan is cool, and have a lot of issues with Mexicans. Those are true statements.

 

Lucha is dismissed by overall coverage, so we are left with few explantations

 

1) lucha is inferior to puro

2) lucha is very difficult to get into, and that barrier is too much

3) there is something else going on here

 

 

 

 

Can't it be 2 and lots of different number 3s? People have laid out a lot of reasons for not liking lucha, and a lot of reasons lucha doesn't have the same standing in the intellectual wrestling community, and like any interesting questions, it's usually a lot of things at play.

 

I'm sure there are some people who exist who won't watch lucha libre because of some bias toward Mexicans. I'm not sure why they matter when a) the people you're talking to are not those people and even you seem to recognize that there are other factors that are probably far more relevant.

[Migs]

Also, I was at a WWE house show tonight. Thousands of kids were chanting "Lucha, Lucha" along with Kalisto. Do with that what you will.

[ohtani's jacket]

There have been more Mexican workers wrestle in the US than Japanese. The difference is the lack of cross-cultural exchange with fewer Americans working in Mexico compared to Japan, but that boils down to the strength of the peso vs. the strength of the yen.