Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[El-P]

I never cared one bit about martial arts. Like, at all. I understood shoot-style immediately and it remains the most beautiful pro-wrestling style I've ever seen.

[concrete1992]

I'd much prefer to watch Lucha over shoot style if you held a gun to my head so there's that.

Why is that? Not enough character?

[Grimmas]

 

 

This is why I believe lucha is not as popular in America, it was said "America is great because she is good..." This idea that we value sportsmanship, humility, focus, and determination played a pivotal role in the designation of heels and babyfaces even in wrestling heels should show a disregard for this values while babyfaces embrace them . There probably is an argument that we are at a time where America was ceased to be good so maybe it's time now that lucha could break through but, I think this is why it hasn't to this point be a very popular style to American fans.

 

The problem with that is lucha draws incredibly well in America, it's just it never gets talked about or reported. A random indie show in Chicago or where will out draw your random ROH house show.

[Matt D]

I don't think this is the most productive road to go down, but there are certainly sites that report on NJPW and a dozen indies (like wrestlezone or what have you) that wouldn't even report on the CMLL anniversary shows. Yes, people like Kris wrote up reports but you sort of have to go to a lucha specific site to find them now. They don't come to you like other bits of wrestling news. It's not like Stardom (or even AJPW) is reported on those sites either though.

[gordi]

shoot style was the first real assertion of a native wrestling style rooted in Japanese martial arts traditions...

Not really. Shoot Style is WAY more rooted in the traditions of Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson (so, Lancashire Catch-as-Catch-Can, Billy Riley's Snake Pit and...classic American Pro Wrestling) than it is in the traditions of Jigoro Kano, Kanga Sakugawa, Morihei Ueshiba, or Masutatsu Oyama.

[Herodes]

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

[GOTNW]

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

That was Maeda's vision at least. It varied from company to company.

[El-P]

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

 

With a guy dressed as a Tiger doing lucha spots. Kinda.

 

Pro-wrestling is ridiculous.

[gordi]

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

 

You disagree that Karl Gotch was THE major influence on the early practitioners of Shoot Style? That doesn't help your argument. I absolutely agree that the intent was to distance themselves from the fake aspects of wrestling (specifically, Inoki's "Fake" Strong Style), but the UWF was still way closer to pro wrestling in presentation and style than it was to any of the traditional Japanese Martial Arts. So were RINGS, PWFG, and so on.

 

You'd be better off trying to argue that Shoot Style was European Cultural Imperialism, frankly.

[GOTNW]

 

 

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

With a guy dressed as a Tiger doing lucha spots. Kinda.

 

Pro-wrestling is ridiculous.

UWF1 wasn't even a proper shoot style organization, but Sayama quickly threw the mask away as well as all his lucha spots.

[gordi]

 

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

 

With a guy dressed as a Tiger doing lucha spots. Kinda.

 

Pro-wrestling is ridiculous.

 

 

It sure is!

[Jetlag]

 

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

 

You disagree that Karl Gotch was THE major influence on the early practitioners of Shoot Style? That doesn't help your argument. I absolutely agree that the intent was to distance themselves from the fake aspects of wrestling (specifically, Inoki's "Fake" Strong Style), but the UWF was still way closer to pro wrestling in presentation and style than it was to any of the traditional Japanese Martial Arts. So were RINGS, PWFG, and so on.

 

You'd be better off trying to argue that Shoot Style was European Cultural Imperialism, frankly.

 

Ya'll are forgetting that Karl Gotch was a jew whose goal it was to promote martial arts mixing in order to genocide the pure japanese wrestling style and replace it with inferior, unpure mudwrestling. All in order to fulfill his vile ZOG (Zionist Occupied Grappling) vision. If anything UWF was indeed USraelic imperialism. He almost succeeded along with his comrade, the dirty north korean communist Antonio Inoki. Oy vey Gevalt! That is importing cultural hegemonial marxism at it's finest.

 

All joking aside, the idea of UWF as a distancing itself from american wrestling is interesting. Just a few days ago I read somewhere that japanese comedy wrestling originated from people laughing at how fake other wrestling styles look. Which seems nonsensical to me but it's food for thought.

[Cap]

Going back just a touch. I agree that people should be watching what they want and shouldn't spend too much time on wrestling they actively don't like or are bored with. That said - and this is intuitive - what is the point of a board like this if people aren't willing to explore. i do think people should push themselves to watch new stuff and I think there is merit to exposing yourself to styles at least to the point of formulating an informed opinion on it, especially if this forum and even more especially for those producing podcast and blog content. As a consumer of much of that content it is a lot more enjoyable now that I sort of get what many of yall are into and what you aren't. It makes it easier for me to gauge what I am listening to and take recommendations.

 

Back quickly to Matt D's post about coverage. I find it is always more difficult and spotty getting info bout Lucha. I don't think that explains much, but the internet certainly leads fans to puro well before it often leads fans to lucha. Moreover, it is sometimes even hard to find info when you are seeking it out. I have been doing ratings and keeping track of things like location and date for stuff that I rate and it is often much harder for me to find lucha stuff (especially if it isn't high end or really pimped). I hope there is more or at least a continued effort to produce lucha oriented content to encourage others to engage it.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

I'd much prefer to watch Lucha over shoot style if you held a gun to my head so there's that.

Why is that? Not enough character?

If lucha is too much like abstract art / ballet, shoot is too much like real sport.

 

I'm a goldilocks fan who likes things "just right"

[El-P]

UWF1 wasn't even a proper shoot style organization, but Sayama quickly threw the mask away as well as all his lucha spots.

 

I know. UWF 1.0 still has lots of pro-style stuff like dropkicks and shit, only UWF 2.0 really found the way.

[El-P]

 

 

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

 

With a guy dressed as a Tiger doing lucha spots. Kinda.

 

Pro-wrestling is ridiculous.

 

 

It sure is!

 

 

And that's why it's great. Let's not kid ourselves. Last match I've enjoyed a lot (thought it was legit great actually) is an AJ Styles vs Abyss cage match from TNA 2005. Abyss. In my mind, a truck-driver (actually, a lawyer in kayfabe) with an S&M fetish badly playing a monster.

[El-P]

If lucha is too much like abstract art / ballet, shoot is too much like real sport.

I'm a goldilocks fan who likes things "just right"

Damn, in France I'd call you a "centriste".

[El-P]

You'd be better off trying to argue that Shoot Style was European Cultural Imperialism, frankly.

 

Shoot-style is nazi wrestling. Lol.

[gordi]

I'm a goldilocks fan who likes things "just right"

 

And that's why it's great. Let's not kid ourselves. Last match I've enjoyed a lot (thought it was legit great actually) is an AJ Styles vs Abyss cage match from TNA 2005. Abyss. In my mind, a truck-driver (actually, a lawyer in kayfabe) with an S&M fetish badly playing a monster.

"Goldilocks fan" is a really nice turn of phrase. I can respect that even though I (like El-P) tend to prefer pro wrestling at its more extreme edges. I mean, I am a guy who went to almost every big Osaka Pro card - and a TON of tiny Osaka Pro shows at Move On Arena - for three straight years. I love super-stiff styles like 93 All Japan, but I also deeply respect guys who work loose and safe and take care of their opponents. I love crazy death matches, RINGS matwork, BattkeARTS fusion style, super-goofy comedy style, super-fast-paced choreographed mayhem like mid-90s M-Pro, Huge Epic Main Events, matches wrestled in tiny community halls with no ring...

 

As much as anything, it's the crazy variety and wild extremes of this ridiculous form of entertainment that keep me hooked.

 

But I could totally see how someone might prefer it straight-down-the-middle and done just right.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well as it relates to the oft-ridiculed cultural reading of the import and development of Japanese wrestling post Hiroshima and Nagasaki, shoot style was the first real assertion of a native wrestling style rooted in Japanese martial arts traditions explicitly seeking to disassociate itself from the dominant American influence. But it's appeal to western fans is significantly more limited than "traditional" Puro which presents a hypermasculine version of the otherwise conventional and familiar tropes.

 

Shoot style was an offshoot of what Inoki began in the 70s. Besides, the native wrestling style in Japan is sumo.

[The Russian Daydream]

Going back just a touch. I agree that people should be watching what they want and shouldn't spend too much time on wrestling they actively don't like or are bored with. That said - and this is intuitive - what is the point of a board like this if people aren't willing to explore. i do think people should push themselves to watch new stuff and I think there is merit to exposing yourself to styles at least to the point of formulating an informed opinion on it, especially if this forum and even more especially for those producing podcast and blog content. As a consumer of much of that content it is a lot more enjoyable now that I sort of get what many of yall are into and what you aren't. It makes it easier for me to gauge what I am listening to and take recommendations.

You are also right about this. Part of the fun of being a fan is watching new stuff. My point was nobody should feel that there's something wrong with preferring to spend time watching one thing over another.

 

As an example, a few months ago, I watched, over a few weeks, WrestleMania 9, SMW Bluegrass Brawl, AAA TripleMania 1, NJPW Dontaku, FMW Kawasaki Stadium and WCW Slamboree. All these shows took place over about a month in Spring 93 and it was really interesting to watch and contrast what was going on in the business at the time. The point is, there was a huge variety there but of all those shows, it was the AAA one which I just couldn't get into - and that's happened with Lucha for me before. Bits of the show were fun for sure, but on the whole I just feel it's not really for me. For that reason I don't think I should feel guilty for not watching a lot of it.

[Cap]

 

Going back just a touch. I agree that people should be watching what they want and shouldn't spend too much time on wrestling they actively don't like or are bored with. That said - and this is intuitive - what is the point of a board like this if people aren't willing to explore. i do think people should push themselves to watch new stuff and I think there is merit to exposing yourself to styles at least to the point of formulating an informed opinion on it, especially if this forum and even more especially for those producing podcast and blog content. As a consumer of much of that content it is a lot more enjoyable now that I sort of get what many of yall are into and what you aren't. It makes it easier for me to gauge what I am listening to and take recommendations.

You are also right about this. Part of the fun of being a fan is watching new stuff. My point was nobody should feel that there's something wrong with preferring to spend time watching one thing over another.

 

As an example, a few months ago, I watched, over a few weeks, WrestleMania 9, SMW Bluegrass Brawl, AAA TripleMania 1, NJPW Dontaku, FMW Kawasaki Stadium and WCW Slamboree. All these shows took place over about a month in Spring 93 and it was really interesting to watch and contrast what was going on in the business at the time. The point is, there was a huge variety there but of all those shows, it was the AAA one which I just couldn't get into - and that's happened with Lucha for me before. Bits of the show were fun for sure, but on the whole I just feel it's not really for me. For that reason I don't think I should feel guilty for not watching a lot of it.

 

oh for sure. I don't think anyone should feel obligated to like anything and if someone gives something a genuine try they shouldn't feel obligated to drudge through lots of it.

 

Most of all though, if watching something isn't fulfilling in some way I don't think people should be watching it, but there are many ways to find fulfillment in wrestling, especially if - to return to this trope - if one is going to produce content on it.

 

I just don't like the idea of changing one's behavior BECAUSE others aren't matching yours. Obviously this is in response to Grimmas' frustrations and I am not at all saying he should continue to watch puro because I think he needs to be well rounded. Lord knows he has watched more than his fair share. I just - as a consumer of much of the podcast content from folks here - like listening to people who are versed in lots of of styles and eras, even when they don't like it. There is value in keeping up with what people are talking about if you are going to participate (or in many cases lead) conversations in a space like this, but there is also value (perhaps moreso) in keeping up with and being well versed in less emphasized genres and working to emphasize and create avenues to encourage engagement with them.

 

 

As a complete aside. I need to set aside some time to watch a bunch of different things from the same year. I have never made an effort to do that and watch in that way. I always think it is a good idea when I see people doing it.

[pol]

Disagree, the premise was to explicitly distance itself from "fake" American wrestling by presenting their native vision as a combat sport i.e. Martial art.

 

Wasn't that also Inoki's vision? You know, "Strong Style", "King of Sports", mixed style fights and all that?

 

edit: I see I was beaten to the punch by OJ. Perhaps you could argue that shoot style was a reactionary response to the Choshu-ification of Japanese wrestling, since it resembles the NJPW of the 70s more than anything else, especially in its formative years.

 

Also, and I know almost nothing about martial arts so I might be wrong on this, but isn't the striking in shoot style more informed by Muay Thai than karate?

[Matt D]

Something I want to double back on is the tenor of the board since GWE.

 

I was talking to Loss yesterday about PWO in general and one thing that I don't think has come through clearly in this thread really does need to be reiterated. Everyone is willing to help everyone else if asked. I think lucha is hard. It took me ~100 matches to feel like I was getting it and those weren't the top rated matches. They were much more of the week to week ones so I could start to deconstruct it and work out patterns. goc and others thinks it's not that hard at all. If it was hard for me though, it could well be hard for you. There are also a few different ways of looking at. Someone like Rob looks at lucha completely differently than I do. Even the people I blog with look at it differently. Eric likes different things than Phil sometimes. We all take a slightly different stab at it and get slightly different takeaways.

 

So it can be hard, but I think everyone here who does like it would be willing to help out anyone having a hard time with it. If you watch a match and you don't get why it's lauded or what the narrative was or why they did X instead of Y or just want to see a take on the match, say something. I'm sure people will be glad to break it down and help out. Sometimes it is just a bad match. Sometimes it is just an empty spotfest or a total mess. Sometimes there's backstory you need to know. People HAVE been hugely helpful. I can't imagine getting into lucha without cubsfan's site, both the archives and the match finder. OJ did a lot of painstaking research for the lucha history lessons for the set. Loss and Chad have reviewed a ton of big matches from the 90s. People like Fredo and Kris would always answer a question if I had one. And the aforementioned Eric is a great guy who will always back up his opinions when asked.

 

So if you're struggling and you want to really dive in, people will help. That's true with this community in general on any sort of wrestling and even after GWE I don't think that's changed.

 

(If your issue is purely execution based, I'm sure people could point to specific matches that you might like, but that could be more of an issue)

[ohtani's jacket]

Lucha on the other hand as always seems foreign to me even though I grew up in Southern California in heavy Mexican communities heck even I am part Mexican I just could never understand what they are doing in there. One day pretty recently (with in two years) I read something touted as the "Rules of Lucha" and when I got that the concept of the match is to out macho your competition based on your role in the match that's when it all clicked to me. Not in the a-ha now I get it and enjoy it way but in the oh now I know why I can't relate to this.

 

Lucha goes against my very core as a person. I despise overly egotistical people the concept of reproduction at times feels arrogant to me I don't understand how people do it, I see it as people saying "I'm so important the world can't go on with out my genes being around at least one more generation". I cannot in anyway relate to the idea that you are in a fight even with some basic built in so let's call it a competition or a sport and you are thinking more about showing off than just winning based on your talent and skill.

 

I know that lucha is centrally about masculinity, and with regard to machismo, there is plenty of posturing in your typical lucha bout; but the majority of that behaviour occurs in the nightly trios bouts. If you watch a traditional title bout, both wrestlers adhere to the rules irrespective of which code they belong to. Both men use their talent and skill to fight for the title. The end goal may be to prove themselves technically superior to their opponent but it's usually done in a sporting manner. Apuesta matches are a different kettle of fish and largely about machismo and leaving your opponent humiliated. They're not so much about showing off though but rather what happens when all that posturing and showboating leads to tempers flaring.