Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[Grimmas]

70s AJPW is the gold standard, imo. Even shitty lucha dudes looked good over there.

Stop trolling.

[pol]

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement.

 

I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

 

i'll take this over yet another guy who gets obnoxiously indignant over defending his boring-ass canonical takes

[stro]

 

70s AJPW is the gold standard, imo. Even shitty lucha dudes looked good over there.

Stop trolling.

 

Liking 70s AJPW is trolling? The fuck? My love of 70s AJPW is everywhere I post, including my own website. Baba was a wonderful booker, and whoever was laying out the matches could make me enjoy Mil Mascaras matches.

[Grimmas]

 

 

70s AJPW is the gold standard, imo. Even shitty lucha dudes looked good over there.

Stop trolling.

 

Liking 70s AJPW is trolling? The fuck? My love of 70s AJPW is everywhere I post, including my own website. Baba was a wonderful booker, and whoever was laying out the matches could make me enjoy Mil Mascaras matches.

 

No, liking 70s AJPW is not trolling and you know that. Stop being so obtuse.

[stro]

 

 

 

70s AJPW is the gold standard, imo. Even shitty lucha dudes looked good over there.

Stop trolling.

 

Liking 70s AJPW is trolling? The fuck? My love of 70s AJPW is everywhere I post, including my own website. Baba was a wonderful booker, and whoever was laying out the matches could make me enjoy Mil Mascaras matches.

 

No, liking 70s AJPW is not trolling and you know that. Stop being so obtuse.

 

 

Stop being a pedantic baby about everything and I'll work on being less obtuse

[concrete1992]

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement.

 

I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

Who said that GWE was more than the view of a niche at this current point in time?

[concrete1992]

Would it be fair to say that the lack of groupthink among lucha fans actually hurts it? Stuff like MOTY voting (VoW) and WON HOF voting leads to opposing ideas where nothing really can get rallied behind it put out as the focal point? Hard to even put together a narrative or starting place when Volador Jr. is either the best or worst and same goes for Black Terry.

 

Also, got into lucha in part because people talked up MS-1 vs. Sangre Chicana in the vein one does the 6/3/94 match.

[stro]

 

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement.

 

I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

Who said that GWE was more than the view of a niche at this current point in time?

 

 

Grimmas seems to think that "everyone" has this random indie lucha match that even most lucha fans have never seen as a MOTY and maybe even decade, and has given me GWE rankings as a way to prove what he was saying was true.

[Herodes]

stro talking about group think and Jerry Lawler may be the worst overall contributions to this thread

[Herodes]

Wow he did the bill Dundee and Tojo thing, first mentioned in 2002

[concrete1992]

Pretty sure we've established he meant that most people that watched it felt that way. To harp further on that point would be because you have affinity towards the "Post" button. For that I can't really blame anyone.

[stro]

Wow he did the bill Dundee and Tojo thing, first mentioned in 2002

It was just a random example, not a specific match. I could have said Dutch vs Dream Machine and my point would be the same.

[goc]

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement.

 

I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

This shows that you don't understand how the voting worked (and that a whole lot of voters never even posted on PWO before or after the voting took place) and that there was a LOT of disagreement over the rankings during the entire time they were being revealed.

[Dylan Waco]

One other interesting thing to consider for those who have completely dismissed cultural factors in coverage/appreciation of lucha - the only other major wrestling hotbed (that we are aware of) from a Spanish speaking area has also been under covered and largely ignored by the house organs of wrestling fandom. While you could argue that in some ways Puerto Rican wrestling has gotten more coverage than lucha, it's not really thought about or discussed much at all, and is largely treated as an afterthought both as a product and in terms of history discussions. This despite having been an area that drew tremendously for decades, featured tons of American talent, and which featured a style that was very much in line with the American wrestling tradition. It is barely covered at all today, despite still drawing reasonably well by the standards of 2016, having regular tv, et.

 

Before the hysterics start I'm not accusing anyone of racism in this thread or in general. Just making the point that Spanish speaking areas seem to be covered far less than one would expect considering their proximity to/relationship with the U.S. and the size and scope of the business in those areas.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement.

 

I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

i'll take this over yet another guy who gets obnoxiously indignant over defending his boring-ass canonical takes

Can I just ask why is it the worst sin in the world to call someone a hipster or contrarian but this sort of thing is totally fine?

 

Isn't that not only a double standard but also a built in proof of my oft-derided claim that some people see themselves as challenging established narratives?

[Grimmas]

 

 

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement.

 

I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

i'll take this over yet another guy who gets obnoxiously indignant over defending his boring-ass canonical takes

Can I just ask why is it the worst sin in the world to call someone a hipster or contrarian but this sort of thing is totally fine?

 

Isn't that not only a double standard but also a built in proof of my oft-derided claim that some people see themselves as challenging established narratives?

 

It always depends on how it's done, not what they are doing. If the old standard is true after being looked at it, fine. If it's just toying the old standard that is silly. Same for reverse, claiming something to be a contrarian is stupid. Thinking something is better that is contrary to old standard, is fine.

[Grimmas]

By the way:

Canis Lupus vs Trauma I was a sell out of 2,400 people and easily available on youtube.

 

In 2007, Danielson vs Morishima drew no more than 1,000 (that was building capacity) and you had to pay for it and it was match of the year.

[Tim Cooke]

In 2007, Danielson vs Morishima drew no more than 1,000 (that was building capacity) and you had to pay for it and it was match of the year.

 

Manhatten Center can hold up to 2000 for wrestling. I don't know (or care) what the attendance was for the Danielson/Morishima match, but throwing out incorrect facts isn't going to help any argument.

[Grimmas]

 

In 2007, Danielson vs Morishima drew no more than 1,000 (that was building capacity) and you had to pay for it and it was match of the year.

 

Manhatten Center can hold up to 2000 for wrestling. I don't know (or care) what the attendance was for the Danielson/Morishima match, but throwing out incorrect facts isn't going to help any argument.

 

I looked and could only find 1000 as capacity.

 

Does anybody know attendance, can't find it.

[Herodes]

It doesn't matter. Leave capacity and attendance to the promoters.

[Grimmas]

It doesn't matter. Leave capacity and attendance to the promoters.

Someone pointed out why would this small indie match be a match that could win match of the year. Well they outdrew and is easier to watch then a match that won in 2007.

[Dylan Waco]

My understanding is that there are multiple rooms inside the Manhattan Center. I believe for example the room Raw used to air in is different from the Hammerstein Ballroom which may be the biggest room in the facility. I think for wrestling Hammerstein can hold in he neighborhood of 2500 tightly packed, whereas the room Raw ran in is closer to 1000 though I admit this could be a false memory on my part

[Dylan Waco]

 

It doesn't matter. Leave capacity and attendance to the promoters.

Someone pointed out why would this small indie match be a match that could win match of the year. Well they outdrew and is easier to watch then a match that won in 2007.

 

 

The ease of watching isn't terribly relevant. It doesn't not matter, but it's far less important than being something people actually realize exists, featuring recognizable stars, and being touted by the type of places that can spread the word to large enough segment of people.

[stro]

 

 

In 2007, Danielson vs Morishima drew no more than 1,000 (that was building capacity) and you had to pay for it and it was match of the year.

 

Manhatten Center can hold up to 2000 for wrestling. I don't know (or care) what the attendance was for the Danielson/Morishima match, but throwing out incorrect facts isn't going to help any argument.

 

I looked and could only find 1000 as capacity.

 

Does anybody know attendance, can't find it.

 

There are indies in America that draw 1000 people and get zero coverage as well. When ROH was blowing up online and drawing 800 fans was this incredible feat, there were shows in Alabama or Arkansas drawing the same or more with the Rock N Roll Express and Bobby Eaton, AJ Styles, etc. No one ever talked about them. There is a indie show that brings a bunch of legends and hot indie guys to Indiana every year that draws 5000 people. It gets zero coverage. No one cares about those baseball stadium shows. And these are in America, with a language that people know. Yet you're unsure of why a random Mexican indie match isn't being covered as much as something from AAA or CMLL?

[Grimmas]

 

 

 

In 2007, Danielson vs Morishima drew no more than 1,000 (that was building capacity) and you had to pay for it and it was match of the year.

 

Manhatten Center can hold up to 2000 for wrestling. I don't know (or care) what the attendance was for the Danielson/Morishima match, but throwing out incorrect facts isn't going to help any argument.

 

I looked and could only find 1000 as capacity.

 

Does anybody know attendance, can't find it.

 

There are indies in America that draw 1000 people and get zero coverage as well. When ROH was blowing up online and drawing 800 fans was this incredible feat, there were shows in Alabama or Arkansas drawing the same or more with the Rock N Roll Express and Bobby Eaton, AJ Styles, etc. No one ever talked about them. There is a indie show that brings a bunch of legends and hot indie guys to Indiana every year that draws 5000 people. It gets zero coverage. No one cares about those baseball stadium shows. And these are in America, with a language that people know. Yet you're unsure of why a random Mexican indie match isn't being covered as much as something from AAA or CMLL?

 

I'm not unsure. You clearly do not understand a single thing I type. My apologies.