Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[Grimmas]

So, how would this change?

 

What could be done to get lucha viewed as favourably as puro?

 

EDIT: For example, something like Trauma I vs Canis Lupus is a match that most are calling a MOTY, maybe even a MOTD. What are the chances it finishes number 1 for the WON Awards? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10?

 

What could be done for future matches like that to place high and be treated in the same breath as top puro matches?

[fakeplastictrees]

 

 

All that said, get the fuck out of here acting like lucha being from Mexico isn't a factor in why it gets less coverage and discussion. I don't think it is a primary factor, or a conscious factor very often, but it is there. I go to lucha shows in L.A. and I'm normally the only white guy in the audience. Part of that is certainly that lucha is a niche fandom for white guys in the U.S., but part of it is that the show is in Cudahy and that's not a place white guys hang at. This seems self-evident.

The simple racism argument doesn't have much explanatory power because it doesn't predict the things about Mexican culture that are enjoyed by wider American society. I'm a foreigner who's been living in California for about 10 years now. I find that the white people I know love Mexican food (and go out of their way to find 'authentic' Mexican food) but have no love for Mexican music at all. There might be an explanation for both of these things in terms of racism, but the same boilerplate argument of "racism, therefore…" clearly can't explain both opposite opinions about Mexican culture.

 

 

Of course it isn't that simple -- and I'm guilty of it myself. I'll wait in line with any other waxed bearded, rolled denim and chambray shirted white guy to have a carnitas plate from a food truck in front of the Broad, but if I hear horns and an accordion blaring from a 96 Mazda B-Series, I'll roll my eyes along with everyone else in line. I don't think race is the ONLY issue, but we are all guilty of racial discrimination and to hide from it gets us nowhere. I have Mexican family members and grew up in a community that was at least half Hispanic, and I struggle with the foreign-ness of the culture contstantly. My point is that this is a nuanced and difficult to parse issue, but to those who think they can dismiss the racial element because they are too enlightened to be racist -- check yourself.

 

 

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing. I know most of what I am about to cover was covered earlier in some way. I believe that one's proximity to a culture, and the assumed and actual knowledge that comes with it, makes a person appreciate aspects of that culture less when compared to the romanticizing another culture outside of the day-to-day experience of that person . This isn't to say that someone living close to the Mexican border or even in a country with heavy Euro-colonist roots/history would appreciate Canelo Casas more than someone in The Highlands of Scotland. However, the quantity of the exposure I assume would play in one's cognitive dissonance (though to a minimal application) when seeking out pro wrestling. This is the case in our choosing/appreciating other art forms. Within the subtext, sometimes people don't want to deal with what they deem as a unique culture and all of its (perceived and real) trappings and just want to watch something 'cool' where the experience doesn't expose or show something deeper within the conscious that causes a person to 'learn'. This would be the case when trying to 'unpack' Fantasma de la Quebrada's early 90's AAA work.This mentality of course essentially creates an echo chamber of entertainment. I believe, more-often-than-not the majority,if not all, I wrote plays within the subconscious on such a small scale that no real deeper truths can be ascertained without (as mentioned earlier in the thread) making logic jumps that more-often-than-not will vilify people for acting on the same every-day same non-consequential consciousness that enjoys The Amboy Dukes over Gordon Lightfoot. I am not sure enjoying Ciclon Ramirez late 80's work requires a different standard for thinking/enjoyment.

 

I agree with a lot of what Stro has written on this subject and totally believe in Kierkegaard's philosophical application of opinions constructed by mass media as it relates to the Puro-Classic narrative set online in the early 2000's. With all that said,to ignore cultural biases and structural framing that goes into loving a particular style of wrestling over another would be ignoring the cultural biases and structural framing within pro wrestling itself.

[Tabe]

 

Here is some of the Black Terry stuff I tried, I'm hardly an expert, but these would be mat based "maestro" style bouts no?

 

I watched 30 seconds in the middle of this match and gave up. Unbelievably terrible. Matches worked slower than a training demonstration? I'll pass.

[Grimmas]

 

 

Here is some of the Black Terry stuff I tried, I'm hardly an expert, but these would be mat based "maestro" style bouts no?

 

I watched 30 seconds in the middle of this match and gave up. Unbelievably terrible. Matches worked slower than a training demonstration? I'll pass.

 

Way to put in the effort.

[pol]

I thought that match was pretty good, and this is speaking as someone who often struggles with old man maestros stuff due to the slowness among other things. Don't see those mat exchanges as slow at all.

[Tabe]

I thought that match was pretty good, and this is speaking as someone who often struggles with old man maestros stuff due to the slowness among other things. Don't see those mat exchanges as slow at all.

The one I was referring to starts right around 4:50.

[Tabe]

 

Way to put in the effort.

You're right - when something is terrible, I should stick around for more.

 

I watched more just now to find the exact spot again - still terrible.

[Tabe]

Way to put in the effort.

You're right - when something is terrible, I should stick around for more.

 

I watched more just now to find the exact spot again - still terrible.

[Jetlag]

Let's look at it this way:

 

- show in Belgium main evented by Hijo del Santo -> draws ~1000 fans

- show in Germany main evented by Kenta Kobashi/Mitsuharu Misawa -> draws ~500 fans

- show main event by Otto Wanz in austria -> draws ~6500 fans

 

Now which of those three gets the least coverage on the internet & how unfair is that?

 

(I have no records of how many white guys or non-white guys were at any of these shows)

 

I think somebody is getting way too riled up by internet fans here, thinking lucha gets held down when lucha easily outdraws all other types of wrestling. Maybe you are the one who is giving the WON awards etc. too much weight.

[JerryvonKramer]

If we take a step back from racism a second, the main split we've been seeing in this thread is between people who are assuming on the most basic level that the world is made up of relatively autonomous individuals pursuing their own separate interests and those who assume that they are largely structural products of their time and place. Broadly speaking the former view is capitalist (see Milton Friedman) and the latter is Marxist.

 

We will struggle to see eye to eye on this because we are talking about differences in fundamental assumptions about the world far beyond wrestling. I made a 15-part video series on this should anyone be interested.

 

There is also a secondary split between textualism (or formalism) and contextualism (or historicism). I could recommend some books on how difficult this split is to resolve if anyone is interested, including four written by some bozo.

 

The reason I was so hostile to Herodos's suggestions about cultural imperialism is because they reduce the individual agency of the fan while pointing inevitably beyond wrestling to explain something I think can be explained largely within wrestling.

 

I will have a think about Dylan's set of questions. Right now I have to go to church for a christening so I'll take that with me to ponder.

[The Russian Daydream]

In terms of the biggest stage in US wrestling, Mexican wrestling have generally been presented more prominently than Japanese. Looking at Rey Mysterio Jr first in WCW then in the WWE. No Japanese wrestler has been pushed to the level that Rey was (or indeed the level Mil Mascaras was in previous eras).

 

It could be argued that, generally, Japanese wrestlers have been presented much more negatively and with less respect for their culture over the years than Mexicans have. Japanese wrestlers often appeared as evil ninjas or sinister salt throwers. Until Vince Russo started putting piñatas up poles, Lucha guys appeared roughly as they would in their homeland.

 

There are a lot of examples of prejudices and bigotry to be found in wrestling but I really don't think the higher profile of Puro compared with Lucha among hardcore fans is one of them.

[W2BTD]

So, how would this change?

 

What could be done to get lucha viewed as favourably as puro?

 

EDIT: For example, something like Trauma I vs Canis Lupus is a match that most are calling a MOTY, maybe even a MOTD. What are the chances it finishes number 1 for the WON Awards? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10?

 

What could be done for future matches like that to place high and be treated in the same breath as top puro matches?

 

You keep trying to push the idea that the reason lucha does not get its due is because of some inherent refusal of the populace to try it. I would contend that people have, and they just don't like it as much as you do. Especially when you are talking about voting pools as hardcore/niche as WON Awards or whatever.

 

A popular phrase around here is that "not all styles are created equal". I agree with that. If you like lucha and think it's the best pro wrestling around, awesome. I love Dragon Gate but readily accept that lucharesu is never going to have broad appeal. Stomping around and insisting that people bury themselves in something until the GET IT isn't going to work. I've probably watched at least a thousand lucha matches. Trust me, I get it. I just don't think it's very good, and i'll be honest, I think it's kind of insulting to suggest that people who don't like it aren't rejecting it in good faith. I'm not sure why we have to search for deep psychological reasoning for not liking something. And I don't think you're giving people (especially people here, who are dedicated wrestling aficionados) enough credit for knowing full well what they like and do not like. Basically, this paragraph is a more polite way of echoing Parv's "lucha sucks", because it reality, that's kind of what it comes down to for people who don't like it.

 

What will it take for grimy lucha brawls or Dragon Gate matches or Joey Ryan/Dick Justice comedy style bouts to win MOTY polls instead of puro? It would take lucha or luchresu or comedy being a more appealing style to the masses than "traditional" puro. It just isn't. Just like Jim Carrey and Adam Sandler movies aren't winning Oscar's any time soon. It isn't a matter of people not giving lucha a chance, it's just a matter of people not thinking it's as good as you do. Not all styles are created equal.

[El-P]

What could be done to get lucha viewed as favourably as puro?

 

EDIT: For example, something like Trauma I vs Canis Lupus is a match that most are calling a MOTY, maybe even a MOTD. What are the chances it finishes number 1 for the WON Awards? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10?

 

Honest question : why do you care ? Seriously ? What the fuck does that mean anyway ? Nothing. Unless you value other people's taste and opinion more than your own enjoyment of watching and pleasure you may take out of writing about the stuff you love.

 

It's like bitching against a year-end list from Pitchfork (or NME or whatever). What is the point ? It has 0 value anyway.

 

Only good way to act out is to write about the stuff you love, the best way possible, and if some people watch it and love it too (or even get interested) thanks to your writing, then it's cool (although you don't even have to know about it). That's about it.

[Dylan Waco]

So, how would this change?

 

What could be done to get lucha viewed as favourably as puro?

 

EDIT: For example, something like Trauma I vs Canis Lupus is a match that most are calling a MOTY, maybe even a MOTD. What are the chances it finishes number 1 for the WON Awards? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10?

 

What could be done for future matches like that to place high and be treated in the same breath as top puro matches?

 

Trauma I v. Canis Lupus took place in a lucha indie fed, and not even one like Elite that has used major names and recognizable stars even for casual/non-lucha fans. I'm of the opinion that it is a brilliant match, and one of the best matches of its kind I've ever seen. I could name several other people who feel similarly, including a few people who don't really post on this board. It will place on my Voices of Wrestling MOTY ballot, and excluding the influence of live bias, I could see myself regarding it as the number one match of this year, and one of the top few matches from anywhere on Earth over the last five years.

 

That said it is not a match that "most are calling a MOTY," because most self identified wrestling fans - hell even most hardcore wrestling fans - have not seen it. Even if Dave Meltzer or the Torch or VOW or whoever gave stronger coverage to lucha than they do, a match like this would struggle to break out to a larger audience because it wasn't in one of the top promotions, and it doesn't feature top names. If you want to argue that this is unfortunate, or even unfair, I can't say I really disagree, but third tier lucha groups are hardly the only places that suffer from this. Just look at how Evolve is treated in the WON, let alone indie shows like Freelance or CWF Mid-Atlantic which are nearly universally praised by people who actually watch them, operate in the black, and have expanded the scope of their brands dramatically in 2016 among indie fans.

 

With something like Trauma v. Lupus things like the WON Awards and more specifically the VOW MOTY poll are actually a god send, because it provides an opportunity to promote, disseminate and talk about a match that would otherwise struggle to get any traction outside of the small sub-section of lucha fans who pay any attention. I think it's somewhat natural to get frustrated at times when people won't even give a chance to things we see obvious greatness in. That said, as someone who is likely to have 3 matches in my top 5 this year that I know coming in will get zero traction in the WON Awards voting despite being beloved by virtually everyone I know who has actually seen them, I'm far more interested in the thoughts of those people who have actually seen the matches and getting as many people as I can to check the matches out than I am in getting the matches to place in an awards poll that is largely dictated by coverage.

[GOTNW]

So, how would this change?

 

What could be done to get lucha viewed as favourably as puro?

 

EDIT: For example, something like Trauma I vs Canis Lupus is a match that most are calling a MOTY, maybe even a MOTD. What are the chances it finishes number 1 for the WON Awards? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10?

 

What could be done for future matches like that to place high and be treated in the same breath as top puro matches?

The answer is it's probably never going to change, but if you earnestly want it to whining about how WON or whomever else doesn't cover lucha enough or treat it as important as japanese wrestling is both completely pointless and incredibly counterproductive. Create your own lists, make your own platforms, pimp the matches you want people to see without burying the wrestling they like you might not. (it's not like we have a moty thread on this very board or anything...)

[Dylan Waco]

As to the question "what could be done to get lucha viewed as favorably as puro?" I would suggest that it is the wrong question to ask.

 

The better question to ask would be "what could be done to make lucha more relevant than it has been among hardcore fans?"

 

On that front I think there are a lot of things that can be done, and some things that are already happening. Here it is important to remember that some of the top stars in U.S. independent wrestling right now are luchadors, especially Fenix and Pentagon Jr. who is almost certainly the biggest drawing act on the scene at the moment, and seems to appeal to people that are indifferent to lucha. Stars like this are critical to expanding the scope and relevance of lucha, though I do believe in the U.S. demographic changes are likely to increase the relevance of lucha over the next thirty years regardless of that. I also think a promotion like Elite bringing in top non-WWE U.S. talent is a good sign, and the development of lucha indies that seem to cater to the hardcore fans both in the U.S. and Mexico is also a very good development.

 

My own view is that absent a prominent voice pushing and advocating lucha/a lucha promotion as top tier, it will never get past a certain point with hardcore fans, but the UK wrestling boom has shown that these things can happen organically if everything falls into place.

[Herodes]

I think ultimately as we were younger fans of mainstream US wrestling, mockery by family, peers etc was an inevitable part of the fandom. It can be enuinely embarrassing to be known as a wrestling fan. As we seek to expand horizons, traditional Japanese wrestling allows fans to validate their fandom of their hobby which is routinely ridiculed, presenting a hypermasculine, "real" form of wrestling without many of the infantile pantomime of wwf or wcw that causes much of the mockery. Lucha won't offer that validation to the fan who finally discovers wrestling that is "pure" and averse from the tropes that make being a wrestling fan such an easy target (for the record, personally I think New Japan and the likes of Tanahashi are genuinely awful but that is neither here nor there)

[El-P]

The more I read this thread, the more absurd it gets.

 

So, pro-wrestling fans getting tired of US wrestling in the 90's got hooked on puroresu because of its "hypermasculinity" ? Like, Jushin Liger vs Great Sasuke and shit (don't even argue, the J-Cup was the gate for 90% of us) ? And the fact joshi was huge at the time, a validation of fandom through "hypermasculinity" too ?

 

I think some people have major insecurity issues around there. Like, huge ones.

 

I remember when I was reading the old DVDVR issues (the really old ones), which was a big part of me getting onto japanese stuff, among other things, in the late 90's, it was all about the absurdity of it all. Buckets of blood, kicks in the face, bitchy heeling, goofy clowing, cool masks, lumpy heavyweights and whatnot. I do think that some people take pro-wrestling way too fucking seriously nowadays. Which is too bad, because now is less the time than ever for this.

[Herodes]

I think insecurity and wrestling fandom go hand in hand, when one is invested heavily in a hobby and is mocked because all others see is fake fighting with Mounties, Vikings and clowns. Deny if you will but hypermasculinity and insecurity are key. One could also legitimately mention homo-eroticism and oriental fetishism but not sure if we are ready to go down those (legitimate) paths

[El-P]

ORIENTAL FETICHISM !!!!!

 

 

"Smoke week everyday"

[WingedEagle]

I'd like to see more thoughts from folks who have been around about how fandom, awareness and access to wrestling from various territories and countries developed. A few posts have touched on post-WW2 Japanese heels and the ease with which tapes from Japan became available in the US relative to tapes from other countries. Just take a look at how easily comps were from various countries from the 80s alone. Not exactly that long ago, but a day/night difference as far as availability. There's probably a whole lot more to explore there, as well as the frequency with which NWA World Champions toured Japan and how reports of activity may or may not have made their way back to the states.

 

Grimmas may be determined to scream racism at any and everyone who doesn't love lucha (and not loving it -- or any wrestling style, as others have noted -- is perfectly great as no one should watch wrestling they don't care and not everything will click with every fan, and no, I'm not quoting the particular post where that ad hominem attack was launched at everyone or the half baked defense that followed because it was a quite shameful attack and arguably the most toxic statement anyone's made here, but I digress. How's that for a sentence long enough to stretch 2 segments and possibly merit its own commercial break?

 

But there are very likely are some interesting historical points and possible discussion areas about how viewing habits and access developed. For all we know, as footage from Mexico, Europe or Indies across the US or other parts of the world becomes incredibly widespread we may see them explode (relatively speaking) from a fanbase / talking point perspective in the years ahead. Or not.

[Tim Cooke]

EDIT: For example, something like Trauma I vs Canis Lupus is a match that most are calling a MOTY, maybe even a MOTD. What are the chances it finishes number 1 for the WON Awards? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10?

 

This isn't hard. Meltzer hasn't watched that match (if he has, he hasn't written about it) and it is most likely something he wouldn't see as a MOTYC. So that's 80% of the reason that it won't finish high in the WON awards.

[Herodes]

Yes El-P, as many sought to evolve their fandom in the 90s, how exotic to see this advanced, post-absurd presentation of wrestling from the land that gifted us Nintendo and Sega, Akira and Fist of the North Star.

[El-P]

I admit, Fist of the North Star does sound homo-erotic.

 

(Akira is the most overrated piece of anime I've seen BTW. I just wanted to point out that fact.)

[Cap]

So, how would this change?

 

What could be done to get lucha viewed as favourably as puro?

 

EDIT: For example, something like Trauma I vs Canis Lupus is a match that most are calling a MOTY, maybe even a MOTD. What are the chances it finishes number 1 for the WON Awards? Top 3? Top 5? Top 10?

 

What could be done for future matches like that to place high and be treated in the same breath as top puro matches?

Honestly, I think the best anyone can do is continue to beat the drum for Lucha and hope you reach more people. I mean if we are talking about an assortment of factors, some personal, some systemic, some historical, we aren't going to be able to do much to make a substantial change in the short term. All anyone can do is continue to discuss lucha and provide detailed analysis of what makes something entertaining and great i hopes of slowly cultivating a positive narrative about lucha that catches on a larger scale.