Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[stro]

If you're sure, then why is this even a thread? You know why that match doesn't get the coverage you think it deserves. You know why lucha doesn't get the coverage you think it deserves in comparison to Japanese wrestling.

[Grimmas]

If you're sure, then why is this even a thread? You know why that match doesn't get the coverage you think it deserves. You know why lucha doesn't get the coverage you think it deserves in comparison to Japanese wrestling.

Again, that's not what I meant.

 

What I am sure of is lucha doesn't get good coverage so it makes sense that that match isn't getting hype.

[JerryvonKramer]

Three questions:

 

1. Does anyone have any idea of how much Mexican fans in Mexico care about or watch US wrestling? Same for Japanese fans in Japan.

 

2. Does it matter?

 

3. To what extent do you expect people of a country to be concerned primarily with themselves vs those who live abroad?

[stro]

But you do know, you just won't accept what people are telling you because it doesn't fit in with the narrative you've come up with in your head.

[Loss]

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement.

 

I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

 

The groupthink is that guys like Shawn Michaels should be at the top because everywhere else he would be at the top. He had both supporters and detractors here, by the way, and both were vocal. Do you not realize the irony in what you are saying?

[Grimmas]

But you do know, you just won't accept what people are telling you because it doesn't fit in with the narrative you've come up with in your head.

Yep.That's it. You got me. Thanks for pointing it out, I'm clearly just trying to protect the narrative in my head above all reason.

 

EDIT: Forgot to point out, it's only because of racism towards Mexicans. Can't miss that, since I hate white people say much.

[Loss]

If you want to discuss a real problem, we should discuss why 90s heavyweight NJPW gets ignored so much in favor for AJPW, at the time and today. 90s heavyweight NJPW was better than AJPW at the time.

 

You do realize that in saying this you are doing exactly the same thing you are accusing everyone of doing who likes Black Terry matches, right?

[Loss]

 

 

DVDVR and indeed the GWE lists here are clearly full of groupthink, because that's the only way Jerry Lawler ends up in the top 10 over guys like Steamboat/Savage/Austin/HBK/Arn etc. When you have a list where Bobby Eaton is 80 ahead of The Rock, and Chris Hero is 3 behind The Rock, you know you're in a place where a bunch of like minded people have gathered and think this is how "everyone" thinks because they're all in agreement.

 

I say this as someone who loves both Jerry Lawler and Bobby Eaton. Their rankings are so out of whack that it's genuinely laughable. Random shit like a 3 minute Tojo vs Dundee studio match from 1981 would get praised as being so incredible, a lost classic, etc etc. Then you watch it and it has 3 punches, a kick from Dundee, both choke and nerve hold spots, and a DQ. DVDVR always had a strong tenancy to make sure everyone knew they were smarter than the average smark, which ended up meaning they'd fight to find the most obscure match to hype up to show how deep in it they really were. It's no surprise that that happens here as well, considering the DNA of this place. Anyone that would ever try to deny such things is just being silly. When you make a Greatest Ever list and the majority of posters agree on the top 10, that should be enough to tell you there is groupthink going on.

Who said that GWE was more than the view of a niche at this current point in time?

 

 

Grimmas seems to think that "everyone" has this random indie lucha match that even most lucha fans have never seen as a MOTY and maybe even decade, and has given me GWE rankings as a way to prove what he was saying was true.

 

 

It's true. When he said everyone, he meant EVERYONE. Every single living person. Remember, he's the one being pedantic.

[stro]

This is the same way Grimmas argued about the Chris Hero shit: He had a narrative in his mind that was only in his mind, when people challenged it, he'd change what he was saying, then wrap back around, then deflect with sarcasm but still make sure everyone knew he was right. It's pretty obvious he's not up for actual discussion about this, because his mind is already made up. He just wants to complain about Dave Meltzer not covering things he likes as much as he'd like him to, all while finding the much DEEPER hidden meaning behind it all, because wrestling must be deeper than surface level play fighting.

[Dylan Waco]

 

 

 

In 2007, Danielson vs Morishima drew no more than 1,000 (that was building capacity) and you had to pay for it and it was match of the year.

 

Manhatten Center can hold up to 2000 for wrestling. I don't know (or care) what the attendance was for the Danielson/Morishima match, but throwing out incorrect facts isn't going to help any argument.

 

I looked and could only find 1000 as capacity.

 

Does anybody know attendance, can't find it.

 

There are indies in America that draw 1000 people and get zero coverage as well. When ROH was blowing up online and drawing 800 fans was this incredible feat, there were shows in Alabama or Arkansas drawing the same or more with the Rock N Roll Express and Bobby Eaton, AJ Styles, etc. No one ever talked about them. There is a indie show that brings a bunch of legends and hot indie guys to Indiana every year that draws 5000 people. It gets zero coverage. No one cares about those baseball stadium shows. And these are in America, with a language that people know. Yet you're unsure of why a random Mexican indie match isn't being covered as much as something from AAA or CMLL?

 

 

What legends show draws 5k in Indiana?

 

The shows that do the best in the U.S. and get the least coverage are probably lucha shows as I noted earlier.

[Dylan Waco]

Three questions:

 

1. Does anyone have any idea of how much Mexican fans in Mexico care about or watch US wrestling? Same for Japanese fans in Japan.

 

2. Does it matter?

 

3. To what extent do you expect people of a country to be concerned primarily with themselves vs those who live abroad?

 

Don't know.

 

I do know Japan is not in the United States and yet at least one promotion out of Japan has been covered extensively in wrestling media for the entirety of my time as a hardcore fan.

[stro]

 

 

 

 

In 2007, Danielson vs Morishima drew no more than 1,000 (that was building capacity) and you had to pay for it and it was match of the year.

 

Manhatten Center can hold up to 2000 for wrestling. I don't know (or care) what the attendance was for the Danielson/Morishima match, but throwing out incorrect facts isn't going to help any argument.

 

I looked and could only find 1000 as capacity.

 

Does anybody know attendance, can't find it.

 

There are indies in America that draw 1000 people and get zero coverage as well. When ROH was blowing up online and drawing 800 fans was this incredible feat, there were shows in Alabama or Arkansas drawing the same or more with the Rock N Roll Express and Bobby Eaton, AJ Styles, etc. No one ever talked about them. There is a indie show that brings a bunch of legends and hot indie guys to Indiana every year that draws 5000 people. It gets zero coverage. No one cares about those baseball stadium shows. And these are in America, with a language that people know. Yet you're unsure of why a random Mexican indie match isn't being covered as much as something from AAA or CMLL?

 

 

What legends show draws 5k in Indiana?

 

The shows that do the best in the U.S. and get the least coverage are probably lucha shows as I noted earlier.

 

Heroes and Legends. They do a fanfest as well. Coming up on their 7th year doing it. They usually draw more than the SD tapings in the same building.

[goc]

This is one of the matches that Heroes and Legends is running this year and if it's indicative of the types of matches they usually run, I can see them drawing big crowds. God damn I hope this footage is made available.

 

[Dylan Waco]

I actually forgot Heroes and Legends was a thing. Never been, but I know a couple of vendors who go and do well there.

[Grimmas]

This is the same way Grimmas argued about the Chris Hero shit: He had a narrative in his mind that was only in his mind, when people challenged it, he'd change what he was saying, then wrap back around, then deflect with sarcasm but still make sure everyone knew he was right. It's pretty obvious he's not up for actual discussion about this, because his mind is already made up. He just wants to complain about Dave Meltzer not covering things he likes as much as he'd like him to, all while finding the much DEEPER hidden meaning behind it all, because wrestling must be deeper than surface level play fighting.

That's certainly an interpretation.

[W2BTD]

My understanding is that there are multiple rooms inside the Manhattan Center. I believe for example the room Raw used to air in is different from the Hammerstein Ballroom which may be the biggest room in the facility. I think for wrestling Hammerstein can hold in he neighborhood of 2500 tightly packed, whereas the room Raw ran in is closer to 1000 though I admit this could be a false memory on my part

 

Pretty much this, but let me clear this up for you guys.

 

"Manhattan Center" is the name of the entire building. Within that building are two rooms that house events, Hammerstein Ballroom, and Grand Ballroom.

 

Hammerstein is the bigger room, and the one used for the early RAW's, the One Night Stand PPVs, and the bigger ROH shows over the years. That can hold close to 2500 like Dylan noted. It has the trademark balcony facades that you are probably familiar with.

 

Grand Ballroom is the smaller room, which I don't believe WWE ever ran (I could be wrong). ROH uses this one when they don't think they can fill Hammerstein. It holds about 1200 maximum. I *think* this is the room TNA ran when they did tapings at Manhattan Center.

 

EDIT - I just scanned through some of the early RAW's, and it looks like for the most part they used Grand Ballroom. The first RAW is Grand Ballroom for sure. I checked One Night Stand, and that was Hammerstein.

[Jmare007]

FWIW Manhattan Mayhem II (Dragon vs Morishima I) was in the Grand Ballroom too. I remember because ROH made a big deal out of moving to the Harmmerstein at "A New Level" in 2008.

[Jetlag]

 

They wanted headdrops and 2.9999999999 finishing runs and clean endings and production where they could hear the impact of all the strikes.

 

Are you serious ? People were criticizing headdropping *as it was happening*.

 

 

It sure didn't stop them from watching japanese wrestling I wasn't around then, but it's clear as a day that a ton of japanese matches in the style I described get praised (maybe not on this board, but in general). People watched japanese wrestling because it gave them something they wanted. Headdrops may have been only small part of that, but I've noticed that nearly all praised/"legendary" japan matches of the 90s have nearfalls, brutality and clean endings

 

I think ultimately as we were younger fans of mainstream US wrestling, mockery by family, peers etc was an inevitable part of the fandom. It can be enuinely embarrassing to be known as a wrestling fan. As we seek to expand horizons, traditional Japanese wrestling allows fans to validate their fandom of their hobby which is routinely ridiculed, presenting a hypermasculine, "real" form of wrestling without many of the infantile pantomime of wwf or wcw that causes much of the mockery. Lucha won't offer that validation to the fan who finally discovers wrestling that is "pure" and averse from the tropes that make being a wrestling fan such an easy target (for the record, personally I think New Japan and the likes of Tanahashi are genuinely awful but that is neither here nor there)

 

I think this may be my favourite post in this thread because it just blatantly insinuates people watch japanese wrestling because they are insecure. And then namedrops Tanahashi, the most hypermasculine of japanese wrestlers!!! I'm starting to think this idea that people like certain wrestling because of some underlying neurosis or insecurity is fast bordering on Wild Pegasus levels of insanity. I thought Trauma/Canis Lupus was a pretty mediocre match and this insistence that it be Lucha MOTY is annoying me.

[stro]

 

Hypermasculine Tanahashi. The guy going into the main event of Wrestle Kingdom sings Katy Perry songs after winning. His buddy is one of the most popular Japanese stars in the world, and the two of them have played up rumors of having a bad romantic break up for years.

[El-P]

It sure didn't stop them from watching japanese wrestling I wasn't around then, but it's clear as a day that a ton of japanese matches in the style I described get praised (maybe not on this board, but in general). People watched japanese wrestling because it gave them something they wanted. Headdrops may have been only small part of that, but I've noticed that nearly all praised/"legendary" japan matches of the 90s have nearfalls, brutality and clean endings

 

And what's bad about nearfalls (it was before it got ridiculous with the indie mentality mindlessly aping japanese wrestling), stiff work (like in Texas or Mid-South, those Japanese stronghold) and clean endings ? I mean, when I dove into puroresu in the late 90's, yeah, I was disgusted with mainstream US wrestling (mostly the work of Vince Russo ruining both the WWF and WCW for me), but what I got from japanese wrestling as a whole was a ton of variety. Yes, there was the stiffness and great AJ epics, but there were also the NJ juniors, the NJ heavies working a different style, the shoot-style, the lucharesu insanity, FMW and the garbage leagues, the entire joshi realm which itself had more variety and style you'd think (between a Toyota spotfest epic and an Ozaki bloodletting, or a Yoshida ARSION matwork clinic). There were different colors and shapes, many many different styles, from the most serious "pure sport bullshit" of shootsyle to the most absurd and ridiculous stuff (lucharesu comedy, FMW matches with people jumping in a pool) and everything in between. Talking about "puroresu" like it's one style is absurd. I guess it's kinda true with lucha libre too, although to a lesser extent (especially today, where it seems everything is getting mixed).

[Jetlag]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with these things. I was just pointing out those are the ingredients that the touted puroresu classics have. Almost all wrestling has nearfalls. It is true that japanese wrestling is very varied, but it's also true that the further they stray from the formula, the more niche they become. 90s AJPW and NJPW and to a lesser degree joshi (mosty AJW) are still the most widely known and pimped forms of older japanese wrestling, and they have all that. For the other feds you have to go to a place like this to get in-depth discussion (hell, and even here folks haven't exactly analyzed it to death like AJPW).

[Loss]

I think it's worth pointing out that wrestling footage in general really hasn't been as canonized as we sometimes think. It's just that jdw did a tremendous job of it with the 90s and probably spoiled us, and some of his approach spilled over into ROH and NOAH for a while. Quick, what's your favorite New Japan match of 2004? What's your favorite Michinoku Pro match after 1999? Are there any good XPW matches? What's the best Cage of Death match? Some of you as individuals may have answers to these questions, but there's hardly a general consensus on any of them. Not that that's at all a bad thing, but I'm just saying the 90s are really the only decade of wrestling that I think comes anywhere close to being fully fleshed out, and even there, there's still a lot of Puerto Rico, garbage feds and tiny U.S. indies to wade through and figure out. I'm finding that there are entire years of CMLL TV even in the early 2000s that don't really exist in normal circles. Entire years! Forget barely scratching the surface. I'm not even sure there's a fingerprint on it yet.

[JerryvonKramer]

This is one of the things that I find really regrettable about GWE, and the sorts of lines it created.

 

So some people look at someone like me now and think I'm this fuddy duddy conservative upholder of cannon because I think Flair, Jumbo or Misawa are all-time greats.

 

Whereas on the level of matches I've very much been part of a conversation reassessing standard takes inherited from Meltzer or jdw. I feel like that revisionism has a lot more value than in questioning the greatness of workers.

 

It's back to the matches vs workers debate.

 

But that's the sort of thing I'd hope Lucha fans would be more invested in. Less who is or isn't into lucha and more debate on what are the great matches and why.

 

Like I have Casas vs Mocha from 94 (*I think*) 4.75. I'm much more interested in the conversation about if that really is a near-classic than in the conversation about whether lucha is any good or the topic of this thread.

[Loss]

I do agree with that, and one reason is because even when it's not the intent, we end up talking about ourselves more than I wish we did. I think there's no way to escape that entirely, nor do I think that is appropriate, but I do prefer that the focus stay on wrestling itself and not our consumption, our tastes and the historiography of hardcore fan tastes. Both have always had a place here, and both always will. I just wish it was more of an 80/20 split than a 50/50 split. (I say that as a poster, not as an admin issuing an edict.)

[stomperspc]

About Meltzer and the WON’s influence on lucha – even the periods when Dave has been into lucha he has still written broad, negative things about Mexican wrestling. I think stating that Dave watches CMLL on Friday evenings and says positive thinks about the shows on occasion doesn’t tell the full story, I think. Meltzer has liked lucha at times but even at those times he does often treat it as a different, often lesser form of wrestling.

 

1990 WON Yearbook – “Lucha Libre for Beginners”

 

(Written after he saw Hamada UWF shows in Japan and started watching EMLL weekly on Galavision when he got back from this trip. Important to keep that in mind that this is a period where Meltzer is watching the Friday night Arena Mexico shows weekly and generally enjoying them – enough so to write an article aimed at getting other US fans interested in Mexican wrestling – but he nonetheless writes stuff that seems more likely to turn someone away from lucha than draw them in.)

 

 

“Based on the opinion of someone who has seen virtually every wrestling style, my feeling on wrestling in Mexico is that it is similar to watching an independent show in the United States. Most of the wrestlers work hard. You don’t feel anybody is “phoning in” their performances. From a top-to-bottom standpoint, the quality of the wrestlers, in as far as the ability to work a good match, is below that of a top promotion in the U.S. or Japan . . . Most of the EMLL wrestlers aren’t what one would call “complete”. Many can do certain things well, but few can do everything well. For example, Atlantis is a legendary flier (at least when he’s operating on good knees) and does great high spots. But he’s really not good at all in working a match.”

 

That certainly doesn’t read like a person who is really into Mexican wrestling. The full article comes off as written by a huge wrestling fan who views lucha as a fun but weaker subsection of wrestling.

 

Just prior to the first TripleMania, Meltzer wrote “This new breed of wrestler like Rey Misterio Jr., Heavy Metal, Psicosis, Winners and La Parca have been responsible for taking the ring work to a completely new frontier . . . and have been responsible for some of the best matches ever seen in the country.” In the same article he writes that the new style makes the CMLL “style” seem “outdated.” This is a period where Meltzer is really into AAA, although far less so CMLL. In the same article hyping up the first TripleMania, he flat out says that matches involving young, unpolished fliers (matches which frankly don’t hold up as well as other AAA/CMLL matches from the same time period) are among some of the best matches every in Mexico. The implication is that matches prior to then weren’t very good, a point he hammers home with the “CMLL style is outdated” line.

 

You can read WON’s circa-2005 where he is excited because Mistico is doing amazing flying and drawing big where he still takes potshots at certain stylistic choices (a small example is he didn’t get at all why guys would do arm drags out of dives even though those are the type of pretty moves he tends to like). Last couple of years he has written more than once about luchadores using too many dives and he has referred to matches with nothing but big move after big move and near fall after near fall as “CMLL style matches”. Like all of us Dave likes what he likes and he prefers the Volador Jr. style match to many of the other styles to be found in Mexico which is fine, but I can easily see how readers of his newsletter and Twitter account would come away with a false impression of what Mexican wrestling is about, even when Dave is ostensibly praising CMLL.

 

There have also been long chunks of time where Meltzer watched almost no lucha and his coverage was limited to news items passed along to him. I think it’s a fair assessment that his lucha fandom of the past 30 years has been large periods of time where he hasn’t been all that into it with a few periods where his interest was peaked, yet he still levies some potentially unfair criticisms at it.

I’m not laying the entire blame for Mexican wrestling not being as popular with US/Canadian/Europe wrestling fans as Japanese wrestling at Dave’s feet but I think his personal viewpoints and coverage have undoubtedly played a significant role. Not sure to what extent, but its there. As Tim said earlier, its no coincidence that the one match that won Observer match of the year was a match that Dave watched right away and heavily praised. I am sure many people share the same opinions on lucha as Dave (or even more negative opinions) and arrived at them independently. That doesn’t change the fact that he is a major influence and has been for many, many years and it would be a stretch to paint his overall coverage of Mexican wrestling as positive.

 

On another side note, I also disagree somewhat that Japanese wrestling was easier to come by than lucha. CMLL Friday night shows aired on Galavision for many, many years at a time when the only way to Japanese shows was to tape trade. Certainly presently CMLL is easier to watch than any Japanese promotion with three weekly FREE streaming shows. People can watch whatever they want to watch but I don’t think its an accessibility issue.

 

Anyway, don’t really have a side in this discussion, I just find Meltzer’s writing on lucha (particularly CMLL) over the years to be very interesting.