Wrestle Kingdom 11

[superkix]

Totally agree on Shibata/Goto. All their previous matches were pretty much the same match, but this one was different. They still hit all the points you expected (except, mercifully, the "let me offer up my back for you to kick me repeatedly" spot), but here the no-selling felt like it made sense within the narrative of the match, rather than doing it just for doing it's sake as it often feels in Shibata matches. Shibata also did some pretty neat mat stuff at the start, more than you usually get in his matches, and I thought his selling throughout was excellent.

 

Shibata's facials were great. Loved the zombie-fied look on his face after that final Goto headbutt.

[pol]

He's really an excellent, versatile wrestler who is hampered both by his promotion's house style and his tendency to over-rely on some of the more eye-rolly tropes of modern Japanese wrestling.

[Parties]

Okada/Omega: Note – this match is a rare one where I’d say you’re better off watching it before reading about it, and going in fresh as possible, if only to judge what's likely to be one of the year’s most-discussed matches for yourself.

 

Early on it’s more compelling when Omega’s in control than when Okada is. One or two awkward moments in the early minutes as Okada tried bridges, crossbodies, and rolls that he seems too lanky to pull off. Okada’s build and style tells a nice story early wherein his legs keep catching Omega with far-ranging knees and kicks, while Omega has to use speed and target the back to work Okada down. Okada showing smarter, more expressive selling than usual.

 

Slow, steady pace at the outset: good armdrags, solid transitions (as in the case of Okada’s DDT on the floor). The big missile dropkick and subsequent pin were savage as hell. Common crit of recent NJPW main events is that the striking doesn’t connect, but Omega was stiffing Okada fiercely throughout, even during his grandiose flips. Some impressive bumps from Omega for stuff like the big dropkick that knocked him out of the ring. Shortly thereafter, the best table spot I’ve seen in some time. To their credit – and again in contrast to big match NJPW of recent years – so often here you get teases that create suspense and real payoffs. Omega’s own lower back catching the table feels like incidental poetic justice when you’ve seen him work over Okada’s for this long. The deliberate pace and stiffness make the high spots matter in a way that they haven’t in recent Dome main events.

 

I even liked the 2.9 counts, as each guy proceeded to subsequently work differently with each near pin. It felt like they were shifting into a new gear each time rather than relying on repetitive overkill. You even had Omega subtly busting out things from the arsenals of Styles and Nakamura to create something of an homage at the end. Strong finish. There were times in 2015/2016 when I heavily criticized Omega as perhaps my least favorite wrestler going, finding him to be a terrible over-actor and excessive, silly worker. This was a complete 180 where he looked fantastic. Best performance I’ve ever seen from either guy, on the toughest possible stage. It’s certainly not MOTD or even MOTY, but this would have been one of my top 10-15 matches of last year, and a strong start to this one. I’m truly surprised, as I’ve never been a fan of either guy. It never felt too long, and I happily would have watched another 15 minutes if they’d opted to go an hour. We risk going too far in the direction of deeming the whole style indulgent. In some ways it is, but I can't fault them for trying to leave it all on the ice when they're in the main event of what is essentially Smark Wrestlemania.

 

I disagree with the “more is more” feedback here, and the “50 minute Kevin Owens match” idea even moreso. Owens can be really excessive and/or listless in his layout of matches, but this didn’t feel like his style or tempo at all. “More is more” is a valid crit if a match has no pace, or build, or storytelling. Personally I felt this had all three, and that if you’re ever gonna go for broke to have an “epic”, the Dome main event is the most appropriate place to go for it. I also wouldn’t agree with the idea that nothing of purpose happened for 20 minutes: the middle of the match is Omega targeting Okada’s back and kidneys to set up his finisher, while Okada swats at him to survive and tries to hit knockout strikes to the head in building to the Rainmaker. It’s not Shakespeare and I'm certainly grading on a curve, but they told a story.

 

One question I’d raise is whether the folks who watched this live end up having a different experience that those who watched later on their own time table. In the years where I watched the show live, I always felt like the main event was too long, didn’t build properly, and was draining after so many hours of similar stuff. I’m wondering if perhaps the NJPW style is better in small doses and self-contained matches. Maybe the whole grandiose notion of a Dome main event becomes boring by the time one hits hour five at the crack of dawn.

[JKWebb]

I prefer Kota Ibushi without the mask. I'm not a fan of the Young Bucks style usually, but there were some fun little moments in their match (like the missed kicks). I thought Ospreay looked awesome. He had a ton of energy and it really sucked me into the show. I liked the story of the knee in the Cody/Juice match. I thought by that point the show was decent and headed in the right direction with each match a little better then the last. The upward momentum continued with Cole/KOR. I thought KOR had a good offensive performance and sold the left arm well throughout the match. I haven't followed ROH too closely lately, but I wanted KOR to retain. The ending left me feeling a little flat. The tag 3-way was entertaining enough with all the cursing and commentary surrounding it. Everything up to that point in the show was decent, some better than others, but there wasn't anything bad or really good. KUSHIDA/Hiromu come along with the first great match of the night. I loved Hiromu slapping at the head and attacking it after the possible concussion sell from KUSHIDA. You got the feeling Hiromu was going to do whatever it took for the victory. Enjoyed the arm work and also KUSHIDA's explosive offense and the punch exchange towards the end. What a cool story they told. It felt like it could've gone longer to me (and I mean that in a good way). I'm going to finish the show tomorrow and continue to try and avoid reading opinions on the later matches until after.

[clintthecrippler]

I am normally not too keen on "finisher trade" matches but I ended up loving Omega vs Okada for the simple reason that out of all of the finishers they traded, there was still the subtext that Kenny lost because there was one finusher he kept being unable to hit despite multiple tries - the One Winged Angel.

 

Also I sincerely hope he didn't Rick Rude himself on the platform during that table bump.

[JKWebb]

I watched Shibata vs. Goto this morning. It was really hard-hitting and very good. I liked the KUSHIDA/Himoru match a little more, but it was a good moment for Goto. The punching, elbowing, head-butting moment was awesome. I liked how Shibata sold the continuous pounding vs. how the hockey punching is sometimes sold (or not sold) these days. Naito vs. Tanahashi was terrific. The commentary did a great job getting over the story of the match and game plan of both guys. Definitely the match of the night to this point. I did like how Tanahashi was going for the left knee, trying to basically take out both legs. I liked Naito selling the injury of his right knee at first, but then moving the left knee as Tanahashi continued to focus on it. I thought him catching him on the second high fly flow and then immediately showing it affected his left knee was key in showing that Tanahashi's game plan was working, but it just wasn't enough to pull it out in the end. So, you're left wondering if Tanahashi had focused on the right knee the entire time, could he have won? I like that story.

[soup23]

Okada/Omega: Note – this match is a rare one where I’d say you’re better off watching it before reading about it, and going in fresh as possible, if only to judge what's likely to be one of the year’s most-discussed matches for yourself.

 

Early on it’s more compelling when Omega’s in control than when Okada is. One or two awkward moments in the early minutes as Okada tried bridges, crossbodies, and rolls that he seems too lanky to pull off. Okada’s build and style tells a nice story early wherein his legs keep catching Omega with far-ranging knees and kicks, while Omega has to use speed and target the back to work Okada down. Okada showing smarter, more expressive selling than usual.

 

Slow, steady pace at the outset: good armdrags, solid transitions (as in the case of Okada’s DDT on the floor). The big missile dropkick and subsequent pin were savage as hell. Common crit of recent NJPW main events is that the striking doesn’t connect, but Omega was stiffing Okada fiercely throughout, even during his grandiose flips. Some impressive bumps from Omega for stuff like the big dropkick that knocked him out of the ring. Shortly thereafter, the best table spot I’ve seen in some time. To their credit – and again in contrast to big match NJPW of recent years – so often here you get teases that create suspense and real payoffs. Omega’s own lower back catching the table feels like incidental poetic justice when you’ve seen him work over Okada’s for this long. The deliberate pace and stiffness make the high spots matter in a way that they haven’t in recent Dome main events.

 

I even liked the 2.9 counts, as each guy proceeded to subsequently work differently with each near pin. It felt like they were shifting into a new gear each time rather than relying on repetitive overkill. You even had Omega subtly busting out things from the arsenals of Styles and Nakamura to create something of an homage at the end. Strong finish. There were times in 2015/2016 when I heavily criticized Omega as perhaps my least favorite wrestler going, finding him to be a terrible over-actor and excessive, silly worker. This was a complete 180 where he looked fantastic. Best performance I’ve ever seen from either guy, on the toughest possible stage. It’s certainly not MOTD or even MOTY, but this would have been one of my top 10-15 matches of last year, and a strong start to this one. I’m truly surprised, as I’ve never been a fan of either guy. It never felt too long, and I happily would have watched another 15 minutes if they’d opted to go an hour. We risk going too far in the direction of deeming the whole style indulgent. In some ways it is, but I can't fault them for trying to leave it all on the ice when they're in the main event of what is essentially Smark Wrestlemania.

 

I disagree with the “more is more” feedback here, and the “50 minute Kevin Owens match” idea even moreso. Owens can be really excessive and/or listless in his layout of matches, but this didn’t feel like his style or tempo at all. “More is more” is a valid crit if a match has no pace, or build, or storytelling. Personally I felt this had all three, and that if you’re ever gonna go for broke to have an “epic”, the Dome main event is the most appropriate place to go for it. I also wouldn’t agree with the idea that nothing of purpose happened for 20 minutes: the middle of the match is Omega targeting Okada’s back and kidneys to set up his finisher, while Okada swats at him to survive and tries to hit knockout strikes to the head in building to the Rainmaker. It’s not Shakespeare and I'm certainly grading on a curve, but they told a story.

 

One question I’d raise is whether the folks who watched this live end up having a different experience that those who watched later on their own time table. In the years where I watched the show live, I always felt like the main event was too long, didn’t build properly, and was draining after so many hours of similar stuff. I’m wondering if perhaps the NJPW style is better in small doses and self-contained matches. Maybe the whole grandiose notion of a Dome main event becomes boring by the time one hits hour five at the crack of dawn.

 

Good review here even with the points I disagree (the purpose of the Okada neck work). I do think watching live clouded the opening moments a good deal. I rewatched the match yesterday right before my nap and enjoyed it more and the first 20 minutes weren't as LONG as watching live. I still think there was a ton of filler and Okada's back selling was pretty much moot which negates the match from reaching MOTYC level in my eyes, but waking up in the middle of the night and watching a 4 hour show only to have a 48 minute main event was a factor in me checking out early on.

 

I think there is a good discussion over matches needing to feel long or necessary long to reach iconic status and that is an interesting debate that can question the rating system at a core value. For instance, I watched Cain Justice vs. Dirty Daddy from CWF-Mid Atlantic last night. That was a five minute sprint. Now, I would never argue that match was "better" than Okada vs. Omega but it was much more efficient in the fact that for me as a viewer, I got just as much satisfaction or enjoyment out of it as I did Omega vs. Okada. That may sound like a troll job but it is my honest takeaway and I think it proves how the truly iconic matches in peoples eyes have to reach on an emotional level where the justification sometimes boils down to "it is because it is."

[Grimmas]

I don't know how anyone could bash Omega-Okada, like Flair-Steamboat, this match added a whole new star to our star rating system.

[JKWebb]

Omega/Okada - I kind of fell out of the match a little early on. There were some alright spots, but there wasn't really anything pulling me in. I do love the Terminator themed clapping/mat pounding. Omega hit a really nice looking missile dropkick off the top rope onto the back of the head of Okada, and Okada grabbed the bottom rope with his hand at three. I started to get into match more from there. I thought the double-stomp table spot was pretty sick. Omega really looked crisp with his offense using the powerbombs into the fireman's carry into the moonsault. In the end, he was the MVP of this match in my eyes. They did a really good job of building the anticipation for DEVASTATING table spot. The missile dropkick from Okada looked like it murdered Omega right there in the ring. Okada took a nasty bump from Omega's top rope suplex. Omega's knees to Okada looked vicious. At this point the crowd is on fire. We get a tombstone and rainmaker from Okada, but Omega won't die. I liked the visual of Omega throwing desperate punches from this knees. He still had enough I him for a rake to the eyes, but he gets caught with another killer dropkick into the corner. Omega basically gets a surge of energy out of nowhere taking over on offense prior to receiving another rainmaker. He tries harder with some great looking knees and kicks, but Okada won't die this time and hits another rainmaker. Whoa, jumping/spinning tombstone looked awesome into one more rainmaker. So, we get another great match at the top of the card, for what was a really entertaining show! I personally would have Omega/Okada as my favorite match of the night, but I'm not sure that it was actually better than Naito vs. Tanahashi all in all. I definitely enjoyed the more unique high impact offense and what felt like a higher level of drama that this match carried. I think Naito and Omega had the standout performances of the night either way.

[JKWebb]

I liked Dylan's point in regards to Smackdown. I think with this show and Smackdown you get a really solid week of fun wrestling. I don't want this to take away from the show at all, but for me personally, I wouldn't say there were any all-timers on this show. I don't mean that as negative at all. I don't go into any show worrying about seeing the greatest match of all time. I guess just because I'm seeing other folks discuss it, I'll just say it didn't hit THAT point for me. Still, it was an awesome show!

[rzombie1988]

Just watched the match:

 

Nothing was wrong with the early portion of it but nothing really stuck out. The biggest thing I noticed is that Omega rushes and goes at 100MPH on everything, whether it be moves or transitions. There's no struggle, there's no fight, he just does his shit and that's the way it is. He also massively overbumps for everything.

 

Then the late middle of the match hits. Omega hits a super dragon suplex, which AFAIK, I don't believe I've ever seen, at least as a non-release version. They wait about 3 seconds and they do a 2.9 kickout. Wut? This pretty much destroyed the match. I've watched wrestling for over 20+ years and I've never seen this move done, making it quite important...and it's used a transition.

 

Match is pretty much just 100MPH garbage from there on out. Omega does cartoony flip bumps for everything. Lots of reversals and big moves and video game style wrestling. Omega literally had to drag Okada out of selling for most of the match to do that next big move. Okada gets the win and it was about as bad as the Omega/Ibushi Sumo Hall match a few years ago.

 

Now onto the rating. I look for these types of things when I want to judge how good a match was:

• How realistic it was?

• How effective was it at hitting the simple things right to make the bigger things more meaningful?

• The heat

• Did they take it to the next level and make it truly unique?

• Did they botch anything?

• Did it flow from start to finish?

• Did it have any real story to it?

• Did they have any particularly memorable exchanges?

And suffice to say, it doesn't really hold its weight. The heat wasn't anything special. I didn't see any story except for "your move/my move". It wasn't realistic in any way. They didn't really botch anything. Flow was okay til the Dragon Suplex and there weren't any real exchanges. No one did anything much different here or worked better than they can. Kenny, while a very nice person IRL, would have worked a match at a random indy show the same exact way.

 

I thought it was building towards a 3-4 star match up until the dragon suplex and I guess that move scrambled both guys brains because it went to indy hell right after.

 

If this is what symbolizes wrestling in 2016, I'll just stick to old AJW and old Memphis, because this was crap. I'd give it maybe somewhere between 1-3 stars tops and I truly just want to give it a big fat flying 1 star rating. I realize I'm probably out of touch as I've never enjoyed the PWG/Indy style but if this is the best wrestling has in 2016, I think it explains why I don't watch much of it.

[stro]

I have a full write up here: https://legitshook.squarespace.com/strobogos-wrasslin-potpourri-reviews/njpw-wrestle-kingdom-11

 

But the short version is that it was pretty similar to the last few years of WK shows: Almost entirely skippable until the 3-4 matches. Shibata/Goto was quite good, Tanahashi/Naito was my match of the night, and Okada/Omega was a great spectacle and spotfest but certainly not deserving of 6 stars/greatest EVER type of accolades. I'm afraid Omega in the main events is going to usher in an era of increasingly crazy stunt show main events for NJ, and that worries me as NJ has been a reprieve from that type of stuff over the last decade when it became more and more common everywhere else. Everything about the main event from the pre-match promo on felt like it was trying to cater to Americans as NJ attempts to expand. But I don't watch NJ because they cater to Americans, and I'm weary that Gedo is going to be unable to contain his inner markdown for shitty US style booking.

 

Very pleased to be able to make brand new gifs of Scott Norton in 2017, though.

[WingedEagle]

So I actually managed to avoid Twitter and any wrestling sites that would spoil the show for basically a full 24 hours and am glad I did as this definitely would've lost something with spoilers, particularly the finishes of the main matches, never mind the apparent flame throwing that was happening online with respect to the main event.

 

Undercard

 

The Rumble was more fun than usual, with Kuniaki Kobayashi & Liger the highlights. I maintain that every show should have room for Jushin Liger's music and in-ring, and wish he had a role in the Never six-man. Not too much to note on the rest of the undercard. Nothing was bad or overstayed its welcome, as they clearly wanted to leave time for later matches.

 

The Dome seemed very cold until Kojima & Ricochet brought them to life for their match. Interesting that they already moved the trios titles over to Tanahashi today. Curious if they'll be hotshotted around for a bit or if this will be a mechanism to keep him out of big singles matches during the early part of the year.

 

Archer & DBS Jr.'s return is a huge plus here, as between the Tonga boys looking capable and perhaps Ishii taking up residence in the tag division for the moment there are some fresh possibilities there.

 

Kushida vs. Hiromu Takahashi:

 

This was a very smart match in that they worked it more as a physical spectacle than the super fast, flying LHW style that doesn't always get over in the Dome. Some of the big spots were really great and pulled off just about perfectly, particularly the dropkick to the floor that Kushida countered. You saw the value of putting over the Hoverboard Lock so strongly over the past year as even though this was arguably more predictable than any other title match, they had the crowd buying into a submission before neatly working around it and building to the finish. Some folks thought the sloppiness & botches added quite a bit here, but personally that really brought down what could've been a great match. Those misses were frequent & obvious enough that they brought this down a bit, but only so far. Either way, LHW division looks to be a lot of fun in 2017

 

***3/4

 

Katsuyori Shibata vs. Hirooki Goto:

 

I often find these two underwhelming because neither cares much for selling or pacing. The former was definitely an issue here, but thought they did a great job pacing the match and letting every sick strike and piece of offense sink in and matter. Whether due to not feuding over the last couple years or because they came up with some new ways to incorporate their trademark spots and offense this was fresh the whole way. Transitions were lacking, but hey, its Shibata & Goto, and that's not why we're here. They threw out some great counters and stiffness, and really built the intensity towards a finish that was legitimately a tossup the entire way. Bottom line is they throttled each other for the duration and did so in a compelling fashion that overcame both not being the sort to sell much for long. Also thought it was a very decisive & effective finish, which was a great theme across the show.

 

****

 

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito:

 

This was awesome. From Tanahashi throwing cheap shot punches to the gut and mocking Naito's pose, to the awesome double leg work and working a solidly long match without any waste or filler that had a purpose, this also built to a terrific finish. We've seen the High Fly Flow and its variations blocked in & finish many matches, but after avoiding one a few minutes earlier and then taking it to the back, I definitely wouldn't have called Naito getting the knees up on what looked like the sure finish. He sold the hell out of it as well and this had an even better and more impactful finish than the Shibata/Goto. I'll need to rewatch this over the weekend as it seemed like Tanahashi wouldn't sell the leg at all beyond the moment of impact or while in a hold, despite Naito working a vicious and long-term attack on it throughout the match. Might flip me in either direction a bit, but late last night that stood out. Still a fantastic match, but worth noting.

 

****1/2

 

Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega:

 

I loved this. I started it at around 12:30 and figured I'd get to bed by 1. That was obviously wrong. I totally get that it may not be for everyone. Hell, I think a good number of matches go way too long and would benefit from shaving a few minutes because it only takes so long to tell certain stories and accomplish certain goals. That being the case, this did not drag for me at all or feel like a chore the entire time. They didn't loudly work a limb and come back to it throughout the match, which is one of the simplest and easiest ways to build and extend a match, but there was logical and visible escalation throughout without ever leaving me wondering why they were wasting my time. The opening head & wristlock action with some nice counters took us to Okada going for the early kill on the floor as they broke out bigger & bigger weapons from their arsenals.

 

The stretch run, depending how you want to define it, went too long. No question. But they pulled out so many incredible and memorable spots along the way, and aside from a few that I'll note and took issue with, all were set up and presented to matter. Dragon superplex was just bananas and one a number of times during the match where I was changing my call as to who would and should win. Omega withstanding just about everything was so terrific and seemed designed to build for his eventual win. The selling and counters to finishers & big moves they delivered were just out of this world and only heightened the uncertainty about the finish. Some seem to think this was a one-man tour de force from Omega, but I don't understand selling Okada short here or in general. He routinely delivers these finishing runs with a variety of opponents and wrinkles.

 

My biggest beef was his kicking out of a clean Rainmaker, which I think only Tanahashi has done previously at least year's show. Between that, the copious finishers and the length, it almost seemed as though the goal was to one-up last year's main event. Problem there is last year wasn't just a match that headlined on January 4, but one that had developed over the course of the Okada/Tanahashi feud for a few years leading up to that night. You can't just skip all those intermediate steps and reach the same location. They did a good job preserving the One Winged Angel for a future match, but I just don't see why you kick out of Okada's finisher this early when its been so protected for so long.

 

I'll try to rewatch this when its time to make 2017 MOTY lists in December as the rating below may very well be hyperbole but its where I was after watching it last night. But I thought they told a great, broad and simple story about the two best in the world throwing their best at each other with with so many twists & turns that despite going that long it was amazing the entire way. Knock off a few minutes and don't overdo Okada's finisher so much and I might have loved it more. But I can also totally get why its not for everyone.

 

****3/4

[stro]

People think that 3 of the biggest spots in the junior title match being botched somehow added to the match? Weird. It's not like they were blown spots that led to great recoveries or dudes getting hit harder than they should have. They were just full on blown spots that looked bad. Between Okada and Kushida, I don't think people can really complain about Vince pushing someone he wants no matter what.

[RingoPlaysDrums]

Haven't been particularly invested in current wrestling anywhere for a while not but I absolutely loved this show from start to finish. There was lots of fun from the Rumble through to the ROH title match and from there it kicked into another gear. I'm surprised to see so much of the show (outside of the clearly divisive main event) prove divisive. I thought the Junior Heavyweight title match was stunning and I thought it would get more love than it has. Big time performance from Hiromu to announce his return. As for the main event, I was fine with most of the early stages, although my mind did wander a tad and they could've cut some of that stuff quite easily. Close to the end there was a point where I wish it had ended. Right after one of the rainmakers that Omega kicked out from. That said, this was the one time where this kind of 'overkill' epic is justified imo - the main event of the biggest show of the year. I thought the match was excellent and had a blast watching it but I'd stand somewhere in the middle between those calling it the goat and those who hated it. I still have a few issues with Omega and I think the hyperbole surrounding him is off but props to him for putting in a hell of a performance in that match. Superhuman.

[Phil Schneider]

Reviewed the main event over at Segunda Caida, I had thoughts

 

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2017/01/2017-doesnt-make-list-six-star-edition.html

[KawadaSmile]

Got around finishing the whole event.

 

Omega had his best performance ever in terms of explosiveness, bumping, and overall sense of high stakes. He was indeed giving everything he possibly could have in this match and I commend him for it. Okada, though, is feeling like circa 2015 Randy Orton, in which his matches are mostly the same, starting out boring and finishing on a more energic stretch.

 

Like strobogo mentioned on his site, it felt odd. NJPW to me is feeling more and more like WWE in terms of main events, where we have big kickouts and big bombs and fake finishes. This match didn't feel different in tone than Undertakers vs HBK at Wrestlemania 25.

 

It is IMPOSSIBLE to call this match "the greatest pro wrestling match ever" when almost 20 minutes had pretty much nothing, and the pacing was all over the place. Meltzer giving it 6*, even though it's blatant trolling (or is it?) is only influencing a bunch of fans to think that this sort of match is the new standard. Guardrail DDTs are completely forgotten, top rope dragon suplexes and back body drops through the top rope onto a table mean absolutely nothing to the match other than another big memorable bump. Things happen in order to pop the crowd for that instant, but they don't escalate at all.

 

With that said, the spots *are* cool, and they do have their place in wrestling, of course. It's clear that the 2nd half of the match is what is going to make people remember this match, but the 1st half felt way too much like filler. Unfair to only pick the best parts in order to give a rating, specially when it was almost 50% of the match.

 

I would rank it as the 4th best match on the card. The Jr. Heavy match, while a bit sloppy at points, never really stopped going. It had one pace and a clear story, and went along with it all the way. Hiromu gives off such a grumpy cunt vibe, and it's wonderful.

[stro]

I liken Okada/Omega to a PWG match at the dome. Those are Dave's two favorite things, so it makes sense he'd speak so highly about it.

[World's Worst Man]

Like strobogo mentioned on his site, it felt odd. NJPW to me is feeling more and more like WWE in terms of main events, where we have big kickouts and big bombs and fake finishes. This match didn't feel different in tone than Undertakers vs HBK at Wrestlemania 25.

Things happen in order to pop the crowd for that instant, but they don't escalate at all.

Isn't this what NJPW has been since the turn-around in 2010-2011? Isn't that what AJPW was from about '92 to '00? To me the difference between WWE and modern NJPW or old AJPW is that the workers in the former typically do it poorly. The best way I can explain it is that the spots often feel isolated. They are done with no build, no momentum shifts, no drama. I don't feel this way when the style is done well. NJPW has the momentum shifts and counters. AJPW had the build to the moves with workers fighting for every inch.

 

Regarding the second comment, if a big spot is sold well and creates drama, what more is needed? This kind of alludes to something I generally feel about all pro-wrestling in that very few spots or sequences seem to actually mean anything past the "trying to hurt/beat the opponent" angle. That works for me, but I often see the criticism that a spot is "meaningless" even if it's treated well and makes sense in the context of a wrestling match. Are there really that many matches in which a majority of the spots/sequences have any sort of deeper meaning?

[pol]

I think in good matches the big spots have implications beyond the immediate visual/sell, yeah. Whether that be to introduce a momentum shift or some plot point (such as an injury) that's revisited later, etc.

[KawadaSmile]

That's the thing, to me there was no build. There was no sense of escalation. The first 15~20 minutes felt like a completely different match than the following 20~25. It started as a very uninteresting matwork/feeling out process and then went to apeshit crazy spots.

 

Do they have counters? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is building to something, and instead can look like just another cool looking spot. The only element of this match that had some sort of build to it was Omega being unable to hit his finisher, trying at least three times.

 

I mean, a Dragon Superplex meant absolutely nothing in that match. Was it sold well? Depends on how you see it, Okada seemed dead when he took the move, which is appropriate, but he was back on offense not long after that. Did the move matter? I mean, in Goto/Shibata there was a bigger sense of build and progression, where Goto hurt Shibata on the back of the head enough that even clotheslines caused major pain, and therefore his finisher did as much damage as possible.

[JerryvonKramer]

I only watched the last four matches, reviews here:

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31793-jvk-reviews-pimped-matches-from-late-90s-10s/page-25&do=findComment&comment=5781722

 

Kushida vs. Hiromu Takahashi (1/4/17) **

Hirooki Goto vs. Katsuyori Shibata (1/4/17) *****

Tetsuya Naito vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi (1/4/17) ****

Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega (1/4/17) ***3/4

 

I really loved Goto / Shibata and really took a big dislike to Omega. I am considering downgrading the main, those snowflakes are chiefly for the OMGness of the OMG spots.

 

Going to read this thread with interest now.

[World's Worst Man]

If it's part of the escalation in the late stages in a match I think it's perfectly acceptable. A huge spot followed by a chin-lock is pretty silly, but if it's in the context of a late match push to end things it works for me even if it isn't treated as overly special. That's not to say it wouldn't be mind-blowing if a match managed to make almost everything meaningful, I just don't think I've ever seen such a match.

[pol]

I was kinda surprised how few people objected to the egregiousness of the top rope dragon suplex spot. I had already kinda checked out at that point (which admittedly is not the fairest way to evaluate a match), so I was very much looking for how long it would be before Okada was back on offense again. It was like 30 seconds. Crazy.

[JerryvonKramer]

One thing I've said that would instantly help these workers is to sprinkle in some old basic spots into their movesets. Like a basic bodyslam, a basic stomp, etc.

 

They go from big spot to big spot.

 

If you watch 90s AJPW, Kawada knows when to sit in a chinlock sometimes. Kobashi is not above a simple slam or stomp.

 

These guys seem to make every single move something that requires a running start. They never just do a suplex, it's a suplex with a twist, it's a dragon suplex, it's a hurricanrana, it's a tornado DDT.

 

You can't really have escalation if your moveset is literally all finishers.