PTBN GWWE

[bradhindsight]

Personally, I'm starting with the first stunner in 9/97. Technically his first match was in spring 98 (Austin one-hand tied behind his back - Dude Love interferes), but I would say the birth of that character. How you weight the promo/character stuff vs. his actual in-ring is, of course, at your discretion.

[Bigelow34]

I would say the stunner as well, that was basically when his in ring career started. He took the bump and lit the match for his feud with Austin. He never announced a PPV (or Raw?) after that as well. If you want to go by pure in ring, then yeah 4/98 would be the date not 1/99. That was technically his first in ring match even though it ended before it started.

[elliott]

So thank to cagematch.net and Cannabliss, the recreational pot shop near my place, I give you the nominee's with the years they appear in the WWE.

 

 

 

1. Adrian Adonis 81-82 & 84-87

2. Ahmed Johnson 95-98

3. AJ Lee 2010-2015

4. AJ Styles 2016-17

5. Akeem/One Man Gang 1987-90 & 1998 & 2001

6. Albert/A-Train 1999-2004 & 2012-14

7. Al Snow 1993, 1995-2004, 2006-2007,

8. Alberto Del Rio 2010-2016

9. Alexa Bliss 2013-2017

10. Andre The Giant 1973-1991

11. Animal 1990-1992, 1997-1999, 2003, 2005-2006, 2012

12. Antonino Rocca 1957, 1959-1961

13. Antonio Inoki 1975, 1978-1980, 1984

14. Arn Anderson 1988-89

15. Asuka 2015-2017

16. Bad News Brown 1978-79, 1984, 1988-1990

17. Bam Bam Bigelow 1987-1988, 1992-1995,

18. Baron Mikel Scicluna 1964-72, 1974-83, 1984

19. Barry Darsow 1987-1993, 2001, 2007

20. Barry Horowitz 1981-1983, 1987-1997

21. Batista 2001-2010, 2014

22. Bayley 2013-2017

23. Becky Lynch 2013-2017

24. Beth Phoenix 2006-2012

25. Big Boss Man 1988-1993, 1998-2002

26. Big E Langston 2012-2017

27. Big John Studd 1972-1973, 1976-1977, 1982-1986, 1989

28. Bill Eadie 1983-1990

29. Bill Watts 1963-1965

30. Billy Graham 1975-1978, 1982-1983, 1986-1987

31. Billy Gunn 1993-2004, 2012-2015

32. Blackjack Mulligan 1971, 1975, 1982-1987

33. Bob Backlund 1976-1985, 1992-1996 2000, 2007

34. Bob Holly 1991, 1994-2008

35. Bob Orton 1982-1987, 1989, 2005

36. Bobby Heenan 1984-1991

37. Bobby Lashley 2005-2007

38. Bobo Brazil 1963-1973, 1975-1978, 1984, 1987

39. Booker T. 2001-2007, 2011-2012

40. Braun Strowman 2014-2017

41. Bray Wyatt 2010-2017

42. Bret Hart 1984-1997, 2010-2011

43. Brian Adams 1990-1997, 2001

44. Brian Blair 1983-1988

45. Brian Kendrick 2000, 2002-2009, 2015-2017

46. Brian Knobbs 1990-1993, 2007

47. Brian Pillman 1997

48. Brie Bella 2008-2016

49. British Bulldog 1984-1988 1990-1992, 1994-1997 1999-2000

50. Brock Lesnar 2001-2004, 2012-2017

51. Brooklyn Brawler Steve Lombardi 1983-2003, 2005-2007, 2010-2013

52. Bruno Sammartino 1960, 1963-1981, 1985-1987

53. Brutus Beefcake 1984-1990, 1993

54. Bubba Ray Dudley 1999-2005, 2015-2016

55. Buddy Rogers 1960-1961, 1963, 1982-1983

56. Buddy Rose 1982-1985, 1990-1991

57. Bull Nakano 1986, 1994-1995

58. Butch Bushwhacker 1988-1996, 2001

59. Butch Reed 1986-1988

60. Carlito 2003-2010

61. Cesaro 2012-2017

62. Chad Gable 2014-2017

63. Charles Wright 1991-1993, 1995-2002, 2013

64. Charlie Haas 2000-2010

65. Charlotte Flair 2012-2017

66. Chavo Guerrero, Jr. 2001-2011

67. Chavo Classic 1976, 1980, 1987, 1992, 2004

68. Chief Jay Strongbow 1970-1979, 1982-1987

69. Chris Benoit 2000-2007

70. Chris Jericho 1999-2005, 2007-2010, 2012-2017

71. Chris Masters 2004-2007, 2009-2011

72. Christian 1997-2005, 2009-2014

73. Chyna 1998-2001

74. CM Punk 2006-2014

75. Cody Rhodes 2007-2016

76. Crash Holly 1998-2003

77. D-Lo Brown 1994-2003, 2007-2008

78. D-Von Dudley 1999-2005, 2015-2016

79. Damien Sandow 2002-2007, 2011-2016

80. Daniel Bryan 2003, 2010-2015

81. Dash Wilder 2014-2017

82. David Schultz 1984-1985

83. Dean Ambrose 2012-2017

84. Dean Malenko 2000-2001

85. Dick Murdoch 1979, 1984-1985, 1995

86. Dick Togo 1998-1999

87. Dolph Ziggler 2005-2017

88. Dominic Denucci 1967-1972, 1974-1982, 1984, 1987

89. Don Muraco 1974, 1981-1988

90. Drew McIntyre 2007-2014, 2017

91. Dusty Rhodes 1977-1981 1983, 1989-1991, 2006, 2007, 201

92. Dynamite Kid 1982, 1984-1988

93. Earthquake/John Tenta 1989-1994,1998-1999, 2001

94. Eddy Guerrero 2000-2005

95. Edge 1996-2011

96. El Torito 2013-2016

97. Ernie Ladd 1964, 1968-1972, 1975-1976, 1978-1981, 1988

98. Evan Bourne 2008-2013

99. Faarooq 1996-2004, 2006-2007

100. Fabulous Moolah 1963-1987, 1999-2000, 2002-2004

101. Fandango 2008-2017

102. Finlay 1989, 2004, 2006-2010

103. Finn Balor 2014-2017

104. Flash Funk/Scorpio 1996-1999, 2007

105. Freddie Blassie 1963-1964, 1971-1974, 1985

106. Gangrel 1988, 1993-1995, 1998-2000, 2004, 2007

107. George Steele 1968-1973, 1975, 1977-1978, 1981, 1983-1988, 1997-1999

108. Giant Gonzalez 1993

109. Gillberg/Duane Gill 1990-1995, 1998-2000, 2007

110. Goldberg 2003-2004, 2016-2017

111. Goldust/ Dustin Rhodes 1990, 1995-1999, 2002-2003, 2006, 2008-2010, 2013-2017

112. Gorilla Monsoon 1963-1965, 1967-1981

113. Great Khali 2006-2014

114. Greg Valentine 1972, 1975, 1978-1979, 1981-1982, 1984-1994, 2005

115. Haiti Kid 1971-1972, 1975-1977, 1981, 1984-1987

116. Haku 1984-1992, 2001-2002

117. Hakushi 1994-1996

118. Harley Race 1963, 1978-1980, 1986-1989

119. Hawk 1990-1992, 1997-1999, 2003

120. Haystacks Calhoun 1959-1960, 1964-1965, 1968-1969, 1971, 1973-1979

121. Heath Slater 2009-2017

122. Hercules 1985-1992

123. Hillbilly Jim 1984-1991, 2001

124. Honky Tonk Man 1986-1990, 1998, 2001, 2008

125. Hornswoggle 2007-2015

126. Hulk Hogan 1979-1981, 1984-1993, 2002-2003, 2005-2006

127. Iron Sheik 1979-1980, 1983-1988, 1991-1992, 2001

128. Itsuki Yamazaki 1987-1988

129. Ivan Koloff 1963, 1969-1971, 1975-1976, 1978-1979, 1983

130. Ivan Putski 1975-1987, 1997

131. Ivory 1999-2003

132. Jacques Rougeau 1984-1994, 1998

133. Jack Swagger 2008-2017

134. Jake Roberts 1986-1992, 1996-1997

135. Jamie Noble 2002-2009, 2012-2015

136. Jason Jordan 2012-2017

137. Jazz 2001-2004, 2006

138. Jeff Hardy 1994-2003, 2006-2009, 2017

139. Jeff Jarrett 1992-1999

140. Jerry Lawler 1993-2012

141. Jerry Sags 1990-1993, 2007

142. Jesse Ventura 1981-1982, 1984-1986, 1990

143. Jey Uso 2010-2017

144. Jim Brunzell 1985-1993

145. Jim Duggan 1979-1981, 1987-1993, 2006-2008

146. Jim Neidhart 1985-1992, 1994, 1996-1997, 2007

147. Jimmy Snuka 1982-1985,1989-1993, 1996, 2005, 2008-2009

148. Jimmy Uso 2010-2017

149. Jimmy Wang Yang 2003-2010

150. Jinder Mahal 2011-2014, 2016-2017

151. John Bradshaw Layfield 1995-2009, 2014

152. John Cena 2000-2017

153. John Morrison 2003-2011

154. Johnny Rodz 1965-1971, 1973-1985

155. Judy Martin 1981-1989

156. Junkyard Dog 1984-1988

157. Kaitlyn 2010-2014

158. Kalisto 2013-2017

159. Kamala 1984, 1986-1987,1992-1993, 2001, 2005

160. Kane/Glenn Jacobs 1995-2016

161. Kelly Kelly 2006-2012

162. Ken Kennedy 2003-2009

163. Ken Patera 1976-1978, 1980,1984-1988

164. Ken Shamrock 1989, 1997-1999

165. Texas Tornado Kerry Von Erich 1980, 1990-1992

166. Kevin Nash 1993-1996, 2002-2003, 2014

167. Kevin Owens 2014-2017

168. Killer Khan 1980-1982, 1987

169. Killer Kowalski 1957, 1959-1960, 1963-1964, 1968-1970, 1973-1977, 1987

170. King Kong Bundy 1981, 1985-1988, 1994-1995

171. Kofi Kingston 2006-2017

172. Koko B. Ware 1986-1994, 2005

173. Kurt Angle 1999-2006

174. Lance Storm 2001-2005

175. Lanny Poffo 1985-1992, 1994

176. Larry Zbyszko 1972, 1974-1981

177. Layla 2006-2015

178. Leilani Kai 1977-1979, 1981-1988, 1994

179. Lex Luger 1993-1995

180. Lita 2000-2006, 2012

181. Little Tokyo 1974-1975, 1977-1980,1986-1989

182. Lou Albano 1964, 1967-1970, 1972-1986

183. Luke Bushwhacker 1988-1996, 2001

184. Luke Gallows 2005-2010, 2016-2017

185. Luke Harper 2012-2017

186. Mabel/Viscera 1993-1996,1998-2000, 2004-2008

187. Marc Mero 1996-1998

188. Mark Henry 1996-2004, 2006-2017

189. Marty Jannetty 1987-1996, 2005, 2007, 2009

190. Matt Borne 1985-1986, 1993, 2007

191. Matt Hardy 1994-2010, 2017

192. Max Moon 1991-1992

193. Melina 2005-2011

194. Michelle McCool 2005-2011

195. Mick Foley 1986-1987,1996-2000, 2004-2008, 2012

196. Mickie James 2005-2010, 2016-2017

197. Miguel Perez, Sr 1957-1960, 1963-1968

198. Mike Rotundo 1984-1987, 1991-1995, 2007

199. Mil Mascaras 1972-1973, 1977-1978, 1981, 1983-1984, 1987, 1997

200. Molly Holly 1998, 2000-2005, 2009

201. Moondog Spot 1981, 1984-1987

202. Mr. Fuji 1972-1975, 1977-1978, 1981-1992

203. Mr. Perfect 1981-1983, 1988-1993, 2002

204. MVP 2006-2010

205. Natalya 2007-2017

206. Neville 2013-2017

207. Nikolai Volkoff 1970-1971, 1974, 1976-1980, 1984-1990,1992, 1994, 2001

208. Nikki Bella 2008-2017

209. Noriyo Tateno 1987-1988

210. Nunzio 1997, 2001-2008

211. Owen Hart 1986, 1988-1989, 1991-1999

212. Paige 2012-2016

213. Pat Patterson 1977, 1979-1987, 1998-2000

214. Paul London 2001-2008

215. Paul Orndorff 1983-1988

216. Paul Roma 1985-1991,1997

217. Pedro Morales 1963-1965, 1970-1975,1980-1983, 1985-1987

218. Perry Saturn 1992, 1995, 2000-2002

219. Pete Dunne 2017

220. Peter Maivia 1977-1981

221. Pierre 1993-1995, 1998-1999, 2003, 2007-2008

222. R-Truth 2000-2001, 2008-2017

223. Randy Orton 2001-2017

224. Randy Savage 1985-1994

225. Raven/Johnny Polo 1990, 1993-1994, 2000-2003

226. Ray Rougeau 1984-1990, 1993, 1996, 1998

227. Rey Mysterio 2002-2014

228. Rhyno 1995, 1997-1998, 2001, 2003-2005, 2015-2017

229. Ric Flair 1976, 1991-1993, 2002-2008

230. Rick Martel 1980-1982, 1984-1995

231. Rick Rude 1987-1990

232. Rick Steiner 1992-1994

233. Ricky Steamboat 1980, 1985-1988, 1991, 2009

234. Rikishi 1992-2004, 2012, 2014

235. Road Dogg Jesse James 1994-2000, 2012-2015

236. Rob Van Dam 1997, 2001-2007, 2009, 2013-2014

237. Rocky Johnson 1969, 1982-1985

238. Roddy Piper 1979, 1984-1987, 1989-1992, 1994, 1996, 2003, 2005-2009, 2011

239. Roman Reigns 2012-2017

240. Ron Garvin 1985, 1988-1990

241. Rusev 2013-2017

242. Ryback 2011-2016

243. Sable 1998-1999, 2003, 2004

244. Sami Zayn 2013-2017

245. Samoa Joe 2001, 2015-2017

246. Santino Marella 2007-2014

247. Sasha Banks 2012-2017

248. Sato 1990-1991

249. Savio Vega 1993-1999

250. Scott Dawson 2013-2017

251. Scott Hall 1992-1996, 2002

252. Scott Steiner 1992-1994, 2002-2004

253. Scott Taylor 1991-2007, 2012, 2014

254. Sean Waltman 1993-1996, 1998-2002

255. Seth Rollins 2010-2017

256. Sgt. Slaughter 1980-1981, 1983-1984, 1986, 1990-1992, 1994, 1997-1998, 2000-2007, 2010-2012

257. Shane McMahon 1998-2001, 2003, 2006-2007, 2009, 2016, 2017

258. Shawn Michaels 1987-1998, 2002-2010

259. Sheamus 2007-2017

260. Shelton Benjamin 2000-2011

261. Sherri Martel 1982, 1987-1990, 1993

262. Shinsuke Nakamura 2016-2017

263. Sid 1991-1992, 1995-1997, 2012

264. Special Delivery Jones 1974-1988, 1990

265. Spiros Arion 1966-1969, 1974-1978

266. Stan Hansen 1976-1977, 1980-1982, 1986

267. Stan Stasiak 1971-1979

268. Steve Austin 1995-2003

269. Steve Blackman 1988-1989, 1997-2001, 2007

270. Stevie Richards 1999-2008

271. Sting 2015

272. Super Crazy 1997-1999, 2001, 2005-2008

273. Tajiri 1996-1997, 2001-2006, 2016-2017

274. Taka Michinoku 1997-2001

275. Tama 1983-1988, 1992-1994

276. Tanaka 1990-1994

277. Tatanka 1991-1996, 2005-2007, 2016

278. Tatsumi Fujinami 1978-1985

279. Tazz 1991, 1993, 1997, 2000-2002, 2006

280. Ted Dibiase 1978-1979, 1987-1993, 2007

281. Terry Funk 1971-1973, 1985-1987, 1997-1998, 2006

282. Test 1998-2004, 2006-2007

283. The Barbarian 1988-1992, 1994-1995

284. The Big Show 1999-2006, 2008-2017

285. The Duke of Dorchester Pete Doherty 1973-1992

286. The Hurricane Shane Helms 2001-2010

287. The Miz 2004-2017

288. The Rock 1996-2004, 2011-2013, 2016

289. Tito Santana 1978-1980, 1983-1993

290. Tommy Dreamer 1997, 2001-2009, 2015-2016

291. Tony Atlas 1980-1987, 1990-1991, 2008-2009

292. Tony Garea 1972-1989

293. Trevor Murdoch 2005-2008, 2011

294. Triple H 1995-2017

295. Trish Stratus 2000-2006, 2008-2009, 2011

296. Tully Blanchard 1988-1989

297. Tyler Bate 2017

298. Tyler Breeze 2012-2017

299. Tyson Kidd 2008-2015

300. Ultimate Warrior 1987-1992, 1996

301. Umaga 2001-2003, 2006-2009

302. Undertaker 1990-2017

303. Vader 1996-1998, 2012

304. Val Venis 1997-2008

305. Victoria 2001-2009

306. Vince McMahon 1998-2010

307. Virgil 1986-1995, 2010

308. Wade Barrett 2008, 2010-2016

309. Warlord 1988-1992

310. Wendi Richter 1984-1985

311. William Regal 1998, 2000-2013

312. Yokozuna 1992-1996

313. Zack Ryder 2005, 2007-2016

 

 

[Ricky Jackson]

For a second I thought this was your top 100. I was thinking "this guy is such a hipster", but then I saw the Baron at 18 and figured , "Oh, I guess he's ok" Lol

[elliott]

For a second I thought this was your top 100. I was thinking "this guy is such a hipster", but then I saw the Baron at 18 and figured , "Oh, I guess he's ok" Lol

 

Hahahaha. Nobody is cool enough to put Ahmed Johnson #2. Its not possible.

 

But really, I just wanted a better sense of how long some of these folks were in WWE. I'm someone who generally favors Peak over Longevity. "Longevity" really only matters to me in terms of "what did they do with that longevity?" I'm not going to guarantee Jim Neidhart or Kane a spot just because they were around for a long time. But its good to have a reminder that when it comes times to consider Arn Anderson, that its just a 2 year run.

[elliott]

I'm curious what people participating think about Pat Patterson? Do we know enough about his behind the scenes work putting together some of the most memorable matches in the history of the company to consider that a point in his favor? Is anyone giving that sort of thing any consideration when thinking about Pat's candidacy?

[Jimmy Redman]

Well backstage/non-performing stuff isn't supposed to count so I don't think that should come into it.

[JKWebb]

I initially thought about the same thing with Arn Anderson, but yeah it's not supposed to play a factor.

[elliott]

Matt encouraged me to post my ridiculous Bret Hart vs Sasha Banks breakdown I sent Jimmy Redman for both laughs and to Jedi Mind Trick her into voting Sasha above Bret. Then, I later realized it would probably irritate my buddy Matt D, so I sent it to him as well. He oversold it. It isn't 5000 words, but it is really long and really fun.

 

This site has way too many Bret Hart threads, but I have a sort of renewed interest in thinking about him within the context of PTBN's GWWE because he's a knee jerk #1 or at worst top 5 candidate and he was my favorite guy growing up. But the more I thought about him, the more I didn't really view him as a #1 candidate. I expect I'll still rank him highly. I haven't formulated a list yet, but I'd be shocked if he wasn't in my top 20. He's got really strong case, but I also see it as flawed in some respects so he's an interesting guy to compare other people too.

 

So, in our PM's discussing our podcast stuff, our conversations oftentimes get derailed and recently I asked Jimmy Redman who she would rank higher for the PTBN GWWE, Sasha or Bret. She noted that Sasha finished 98th on her GWE Ballot and Bret was in the 60s. But that ranking was based on Sasha's NXT work only and with her WWE work, Sasha obviously moves up the list so they'll probably end up close to each other. She finished with "my heart wants to rank her higher, obviously, but I doubt I'll go that far."

 

That's kind of the answer I was hoping for to have some fun and run wild with a heavily biased Sasha vs Bret comparison and see if I could make a case to rank Sasha higher. I'll just post the unedited version (sorry Izzy, Pittsburgh, Canada, and Bret Hart). Re-reading it, there are some things I'd either re-word or elaborate on, but I was running out of steam at the end of this. I could probably stretch it out to 5000 words.

 

I'm stoned.

 

You were warned.

 

I've been thinking a lot about Sasha vs Bret. Bret being a favorite while growing up and Sasha being a current favorite. The knee jerk reaction is going to be obviously Bret, but I feel like I could craft an argument for Sasha based on in-ring. Granted, if I'm going to account for interviews, then I'd favor Bret....but if I'm giving a lot of credit for interviews, Bret probably starts dropping behind folks like Piper, Austin, Rock, maybe Foley. So while that criteria helps him in a one to one comparison against Sasha, it probably doesn't help him all that much overall (and I think very highly of Bret's promo/interview stuff). Anyway, lets figure this out.

 

Looking at the criteria:

Nuance:

Longevity - Obviously Bret has her on longevity. But, I'm going to try and look more at Dylan's idea of "consistency of quality." Brooklyn Brawler has 20+ years of crap with the company. I'm not going to even consider him. But I'll look at Aj Styles' 2 years. It is how I'm going to justify keeping someone like HHH off my list. By the given criteria, HHH almost has to make the list, but I won't abide that. However, I also would like to be as fair as possible and so if HHH is completely excluded because he has just small pockets of goodness mixed in with 20 years of mostly crap, then someone with a lot of great stuff but also a heavy mixture of crap (lets call him Iron Sheik) should be punished accordingly.

 

Which is a long way of bringing me to Bret. He has the "longevity" in name, but I'm more on the side of not being impressed by his Hart Foundation Tag run. That run was rouglhy 7 1/2 years. There are definitely some very good matches, but not a single MOTYC during that run. He did have some singles matches in that run that were impressive like vs Macho Man and I know some like the Hennig matches a lot as well. But as a tag wrestler of the era, did Bret Hart stand out more than either of the British Bulldog? Haku? Either Jumping Bomb Angel? Bill Eadie? Either Rocker? Either BrainBuster? Was he appreciably better than Jim Brunzell, Rick Martel, Tito? I think it was Dylan who said that rewatching Hart Foundation matches it was Jim Neidhart who stood out because of his look/personality while Bret was just another technically sound guy.

 

So yes, Bret has way more years with WWE, but he spent a ton of it farting around in an endless stream of ok matches that only stood out in the context of being on the same card as something like Jake Roberts vs Bad News Brown (Seriously, look at the matches on SummerSlam 1990 that don't instantly come to your mind already. Would you want to watch any of those matches? No!)

 

From his singles push on, Bret is pretty clearly great when he wants to be. He has the rep of being crappy or phoning it in on house shows, but you could pretty clearly count on him to deliver...unless it was a big match against Michaels (I know you like the Iron man, I couldn't resist, and the 1992 match is really bad and was a real opportunity for both).

 

Anyway, yeah Bret has this 14 year run in the company where he was a mostly featured performer. But when I'm looking at Bret's case, its really mid 1991-11/97 with a big chunk of time gone in 1996. So about the length of Piper's two main runs. Everything before that he's basically Jim Brunzell and I'm not really considering Jim Brunzell.

 

Still, this is a point in Bret's favor because his duration of quality is still sightly greater than Sasha's even if she's going to pass him sooner than people realize, given half a chance.

 

Flexibility -

I view this as the versatility/variety category. Ability to successfully work face or heel, singles or tags, different sorts of opponents, brawls, technical matches, etc. I'd call this even probably.

 

Intangibles -

This is pretty tough because intangibles can mean whatever I want them to be and can can carry whatever amount of weight I want. In the end, its how I will justify everything. If you kill your wife and kid, that's minus infinity intangible points and you're off the list no matter what. You carve out a really good and memorable career in spite of booking disadvantages or have the best match in the history of the company or are part of the best tag team or are just Macho Man Randy Savage, these are all perfectly acceptable intangibles.

 

So Bret has maybe the best match in the history of the company against Austin. The Owen feud is a contender for best feud in the history of the company (an outside contender imo, but lots of people would consider it strongly). He's one of the best big match performers in WWE history. He said if you were gonna give the United States an Enema you'd stick the hose in Pittsburgh (one of the greatest lines in company history). But he also was involved in a shitty Brother vs Brother Cage Match, was trained by Stu Hart, took himself too seriously and that wound up in a way causing him to get double crossed in 1997 in front of 20,000 people in favor of a broken down junkie. So that loses some points.

 

As for Sasha. Well "She may have just broken Bayley's hand...LIKE A BOSS." That's +25 alone so she's already winning. There are lots of other things. Probable best feud in the history of the company against Charlotte, clutch performer in her big match opportunities, totally insane bumper,, that Kendo Stick battle with Charlotte in the Falls Count ANywhere Match, the FINISH of the Falls Count ANywhere Match, stomping on Bayley's recently broken hand at NXT Takeover Brooklyn, ripping off Izzy's headband & talking shit right in her face during the Iron Woman match at the next NXT Takeover. Related to Snoop Dogg. Trained by Dusty Rhodes.

 

I mean, obviously Sasha takes intangibles by any metric you can come up with.

 

 

Jump Up Factor

Memorable Peak matches:

 

I mean, this is where Bret Shines. The 2 AUstin matches, the 2 Davey Boy Matches. The Owen match at Mania. I actually like the Montreal match up until the screwjob so I'll split the difference with you and give him 1 Michaels Match. One Night Only vs Taker. Mileage varies on the Diesel matches, I like them both and think I prefer Survivor Series. I like the Survivor Seires match with Backlund probably more than most. OH, I can't believe I didn't already mention, I think the Roddy Piper WM VIII match is a classic. One of Bret's top 5. The 123 Kid TV match. The Savage match where Savage sold the ankle like crazy was a memorable match, but given that I describe it as the "match where Savage sold the ankle like crazy" makes me give Savage more credit for that match. Um, the Perfect matches in 91 and 93 I like. He had some very good matches against Yokozuna...but fell flat with the WrestleMania ones which makes me kinda not know what to do given its "Memorable peak matches" and they had their worst matches together in their biggest matches together. In terms of Memorable Peak Matches, Bret has as good a case as anybody.

 

You know Sasha's peak matches as well as anyone so I won't recite them for you. What I will say is that when given the opportunity and opponent Sasha has proven time and again that she can have some of the best matches in the history of the company. I actually think Sasha's best 5 matches stack up incredibly well against Bret's.

 

WM XIII Submission match vs Hell in a Cell

Survivor Series 96 vs NXT Takeover Brooklyn

WM X vs Becky Lynch 5/10/15

SummerSlam 92 vs First RAW Womens' Main Event (Sasha wins title before HIAC)

I'm not sure what most people would call Bret's 5th best match, I'd probably say the Piper one, but We'll go with:

Taker One Night Only vs RAW Falls Count Anywhere w/ Kendo Stick & Banks Statement of Death

 

I mean...I think the Mania XIII match with Austin is better than Hell in a Cell...but I've got the rest of the Sasha matches rated higher than the Bret matches.

 

Sasha's Peak Stuff stacks up REALLY well. If you keep running down match lists of doom, I'm a huge fan of the two Iron woman matches, the triple threat at Mania, SummerSlam vs Charlotte, etc.

 

I've always tended to favor Peak vs Longevity in that argument, with a million qualifiers. But when it came down to it, I ranked Akira Hokuto #22 and Giant Baba #39 during GWE.

 

And when it comes to PEAK, Sasha has made an incredible case in a short period of time. And realistically, Bret's case is also all about peak. He's not the hidden gem candidate like a Valentine or a Rey or Sheamus. He's got the 7 1/2 years of being essentially Jim Brunzell or Tom Zenk in pink tights. And then when he got the opportunity and turned into a great wrestler, he saved it for the Major Shows.

 

So when you've got a candidate that's all peak and this other person's peak is clearly better while maybe not being as long...well...I mean it starts to get harder to rank Bret above Sasha when you're thinking about in ring. Its when you get into the other stuff like...

 

Memorable Peak Moments

Not sure if this is specific moments in matches or can include stuff like Bret's Pittsburgh Promo or the WM X Post Match Celebration or all of Canadian Stampede, or the swearing at Vince interview in the cage on RAW, or all of the Austin stuff. But what does it say that Bret's most memorable and important moment in company history was that time Vince double crossed him?

 

Sasha talked shit to a little kid''s face and made her cry. Does it get more memorable than that?

 

Storylines

Bret takes this. I couldn't make an argument for Sasha. I give that up to you.

 

Promo Skills & Character Work

Bret takes the promo skills. He has the advantage of not working in the terrible everything scripted era. But at his best he was a great promo. Can't help but give it to him.

 

Character work really boils down to this for me:

Bret would find a random kid and give them his terrible and probably super wet, essentially laminated paper sunglasses before every match

 

Sasha beat the shit out of the beloved babyface in front of said babyface's biggest fan, who happened to be a young child. Then Sasha talked shit in the fan's face, ripped off her headband, and mockingly put it on while the child literally wept. I mean, Bret Hart can take his Canadian Sportsman Pride and go fuck himself.

 

And finally

 

Workrate

I mean, I feel like this is sort of covered everywhere. I'm not considering the literal definition "rate at which you work" with the implication that the faster you work is better. Jake Roberts sitting down in the corner of the 92 Rumble to let whichever babyface is already in the ring to continue to beat the crap out of Flair is better work than, I was going to give a vague example, but I'll just say all of Kevin Owens. Jake Roberts pointing and getting the crowd to tell him where Rick Martel is in the blindfold match is better than Dolph Ziggler bumping like a maniac.

 

So, I mean, Sasha doesn't have the 7 1/2 years of meaningless tag work. But I'd lean towards calling this a push. Though I could see favoring Sasha for being more willing to kill herself for the sake of getting over a meaningless SuperStars match.

 

Kinda looking at everything broadly. The knee jerk reaction is Bret because he has "longevity" but a lot of that longevity is empty nothing better than good for years and years before finally "great" being spread out over a 5 years period and really being concentrated in two one year pockets (1994 and 11/96-11/97). His case is really carried strongly by great matches. And Sasha's best matches are generally just as good if not better so I could reasonably consider voting Sasha over Bret.

 

Don't write it off completely. The truth is out there.

 

 

 

[bradhindsight]

Hey Elliott - would you mind if I worked that up for a post at PTBN?

[elliott]

Not at all Brad! Go for it

[Microstatistics]

 

Top 2 for me is easy

 

1. Shawn Michaels

2. Bret Hart

 

 

Here is my case for Shawn Michaels as #1 for GWWE. I know it's kind of boring to talk about the people at the top of your list but I wanted to try and make a strong argument for him, something I regret not doing during GWE.

 

I ranked Shawn #37 during GWE which in hindsight is way too low. He should have been Top 20 easy. I barely watched anything from him during the project and think got influenced too deeply by the PWO criticisms without really checking if they held up or not, something I regret now.

 

My look at each phase of his career:

 

The Rockers: Even his harshest critics usually like this run. He was a very strong tag wrestler in his earlier WWF years.

 

1992-93: He was pretty green when he made the transition over to singles, I will admit. Didn't really get going though he had the charisma, the athleticism and had some good matches.

 

1994-98: His peak.

 

The WMX ladder match vs. Razor holds up as a great match. He had other very good singles matches vs. Razor as well that year. The 10/94 Clique tag features a commanding heel performance.

 

Really good/great match vs. Jarrett in 95. The SS95 ladder rematch is excellent and his leg selling in that is perfectly fine, I don't get the over the top criticism it got in his GWE thread.

 

Really good feud vs. Owen. Really great match vs. Bret at WM12. Dragged a really good singles match out of Diesel (a HUGE positive for me). Good match vs. Vader. The 1996 worldwide MOTY vs. Foley which for me is the GOAT US match and a ***** classic. The Sid stuff is decent.

 

Really good stuff tagging and feuding with Austin in 97. The Raw match vs. Foley is super violent and awesome. The DBS One Night only match is fantastic and he managed to get the entire crowd to completely loathe him by the end of it. The Taker feud is great with the Ground Zero spectacle and the fantastic HIAC. Good match vs. Austin at WM14 where he wrestled with essentially a broken back.

 

Superb heel charisma and mannerisms, ability to generate sympathy as a babyface, great bumping, strong selling and good offense. Yes, offense as well. It wasn't Satanico or Kobashi level but it was perfectly adequate. Never did I think "well that looked weak". Ability to get good stuff out of limited opponents. Versatility in terms of type of match and kind of opponents.

 

So far, so good. Great tag run, then a lull as a singles wrestler but then an amazing peak.

 

2002-2010: Ah yes post comeback Shawn, PWO's favorite wrestler.

 

First match itself, he is right on point with a great match vs. HHH at SS02 where he displayed his ability to generate drama and extract emotion from the crowd.

 

The late 2002- mid 2003 period for Shawn is pretty weak though I'll admit. Awful 3 stages of hell vs. HHH and average performances in early 03.

 

But then he has the fantastic 2003 HHH Raw match and never really looks back from there.

 

The 2004 Benoit singles series is great featuring both awesome offensive and selling performances from Shawn. He is also easily the best guy in both Benoit/HHH triple threats.

 

The 2005 Angle matches are pretty decent but overrated as hell. Still, Shawn is clearly the better performer in both so that is a positive.

 

In 2006, you have to give him a break. First he is feuding with the McMahons and then he is shuttled into that DX nonsense and he is STILL able to pull decent stuff out it like the Vince WM match and the blowoff HIAC, which is actually very good.

 

Excellent, fiery performance in the DX vs. Edge/Orton match. The Cena series in 2007 is really good of course. But the idea Cena carried him in those matches is insane to me. He is excellent as the veteran vs. the stronger, younger champion. He gets a way better match out of Khali than Cena did. Great, unique match vs. Orton where he displayed his wrestling dexterity.

 

2008 is a great year for Michaels. Really good melodrama vs. Flair, good stuff vs. Batista followed by the terrific, dramatic 4 match Jericho feud where he gives a great set of diverse performances, each appropriate for the stage in the rivalry they were at.

 

Really good match vs. Rey in 2010 and then that amazing match vs. Taker at WM26 which was a masterclass of build and storytelling.

 

He was also particularly great at, almost singlehandedly, turning throwaway multimans into something memorable . Survivor Series 03 and Royal Rumble 2010. His selling and perfect timing of spots in the 03 match really ramped up the drama and got the viewer emotionally invested. His urgency and desperation in the rumble made what is usually a mess of a match compelling.

 

His post-comeback is marred slightly by inconsistent performances and some lows. But the diversity of performances, ability to excel and produce something unique in unorthodox matches, ability to make the most out of bad situations and the quality of the high end matches more than makes up for it.

 

In his post-comeback, I think he had this vision for pro wrestling as a medium for drama infused, emotionally storytelling which I appreciate and don't really think is comparable to the boring finisher kickout/counter/laying around self conscious epic stuff we see today. That said, he did fall into that trap occasionally with things like vs. Taker WM 25 and had other misfires vs. HHH for example. But when his formula clicked, it was great.

 

The melodrama/theatrical approach might not connect with some viewers but I strongly disagree with the idea that it is bad wrestling or is "embarrassing". I don't see how it is any less "embarrassing" than Steamboat's over the top selling, Funk's guardrail flailing and spaghetti legs and Cena's goofy facial expressions which everyone loves but Shawn repeatedly gets put down for his acting. Plus all of his fundamentals (selling, bumping, offense etc.) and actual "wrestling" were all on point and looked good so I don't really see a problem.

 

So longevity, versatility, high end matches and an ambitious commitment to dramatic storytelling in his later years make him my #1 for WWE.

 

[JKWebb]

Good stuff Microstatistics! I don't have him at #1, but he'll make my top 10 for the reasons you outlined. It's nice to see someone stick their neck out for ol' HBK.

[Microstatistics]

Thank you.

[Jimmy Redman]

Me and Micro vs the world.

[Dylan Waco]

My issue with Shawn is that the competing narratives surrounding him are so strong that it's hard to get a fair picture of him.

 

I am more sympathetic to the critic camp, and at times have probably been one of it's biggest advocates, but I agree that it's gone too far. Even if someone is largely unenthused about his post-comeback work, I think much of his entire singles career has been viewed through that prism in reverse and that isn't fair. I also agree with the argument made above that Shawn is sometimes held to an unfair standard by his biggest critics, though I confess that I see that largely as a reaction to the other big narrative surrounding Shawn.

 

On the other hand I think Shawn is the most heavily pushed and promoted wrestler in WWE relative to his actual success rate as a performer/star and yes that includes HHH. They have pushed the narrative of him as "ultimate great in ring worker" for years, often times at the expense of storylines. I don't think people who love Shawn are being worked, but I do think this narrative effects how people view him at least as much as the overly critical narrative.

 

Shawn is a case where I think we can disagree on his work, with one group arguing that he's the best in company history and the other not even close to being in that camp, but I think objectively it's hard to make the case for him having a super compelling character for huge swaths of his career regardless of how you feel about him as an in ring talent. More importantly to me at least, i think in the grand scheme of things he was far less important to the company than company marketing/talking points would suggest.

 

He will make my list and make it easily, but I can't give him the benefit of any doubt when I'm well aware that a large portion of voters - probably the majority - are likely to be operating from the universe of that second narrative. I also think the NJPW system being used to consider people means that some of Shawn's issues from his 90's peak cannot be dismissed out of hand. For that reason alone he would be DQ'ed as a serious top five contender for me.

[Loss]

I don't think Shawn is the greatest worker in WWE history, but I think he's the greatest WWE worker in history. He has had a greater impact on the working style in the company, for better or for worse, than anyone else I can say. He was for all intents and purposes the first ladder match guy and the first HIAC guy, and set the standard for probably the two most influential gimmick matches in WWE of the last 20-25 years. You can poke holes in his work, just as you can poke holes in the company's preferred working approach, but I'd say those holes are largely one and the same. Still, I think more than anyone else, he's the guy who owns how WWE guys work. Much of that is mythmaking, and the idea of giving it your all on big and small shows night after night was never Shawn's forte, even though the guys he has inspired seem to view themselves as having that sort of unbridled passion. But I think looking at a GWWE is very different than looking at a GWE, and the myth carries a lot more weight in a company with such a fascist take on its own history.

[Dylan Waco]

It's precisely the unique criteria of GWWE that has me convinced Shawn has no business as a number one contender.

 

FWIW I think Savage is the father of WWE main event style, Shawn is probably the Paul to his Jesus though.

[Loss]

That's an interesting take, and looking at the melodrama of moments like the Megapowers handshake and the Ultimate Warrior matches, along with the labored perfection of the Steamboat match, I can certainly see the logic. I do think there's a lot of stalling and comedy nonsense like hiding behind the valet and taking bumps in ring attire that haven't really had staying power, but I guess there are things in Shawn matches if we look close enough that haven't continued as well. I don't say "nonsense" as a negative, by the way, as it was one of my favorite things about fall out of bed Randy Savage matches.

[SAMS]

In regards to this project I feel that to a certain extent I have the great match/workrate portion of the criteria under control due to the litany of match lists available online. However, as somebody who has never watched the TV stuff week in week out due to regional issues etc. I have no clue how I'm going to tackle the character work/promo aspect without completely overlooking worthy candidates and especially those who's main case is based predominantly around these categories.

Are people actively going back and rewatching entire segments and/or promos like you would a series of noteworthy matches for each candidate or are people relying more upon their memories of having watched these events in real time to gauge their feelings in this respect?

I feel stupid asking for a list of relevant promos that people feel are necessary to watch because of the number of people already nominated BUT, especially for those less obvious, under the radar candidates that people feel will score strongly for character, any guidance would be appreciated. This counts doubly for anything pre-1990 as I know that this will be by far my greatest blindspot.

[Bigelow34]

In this episode of PTBN GWWE: Making the Cut, JT and Aaron are discuss the GWWE candidacy of Kane, X-Pac, Trish Stratus, Goldust and Undertaker. Which are locks? Which are fringe candidates? Where do they rank and how do they stack up? JT & Aaron break it all down!

http://placetobenation.com/ptbn-gwwe-making-the-cut-3/

[Bigelow34]

In this episode of PTBN GWWE: Making the Cut, JT and Aaron are discuss the GWWE candidacy of Roddy Piper, Chyna, Brock Lesnar and Vince McMahon. Which are locks? Which are fringe candidates? Where do they rank and how do they stack up? JT & Aaron break it all down.. and divert into many tangents along the way as usual!

http://placetobenation.com/ptbn-gwwe-making-the-cut-4/

[soup23]

The ballot has been created where you can submit your lists. All entries are due from now until December 31, 2017 at 11:59 PM Eastern Standard Time.

 

 

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScRk0eY3_SXzFRIlBqZgpFnPudYwo0L31FmoE9yrA9DQ8jhxg/viewform

[Superstar Sleeze]

I feel like I am a generally positive person and I do actually like WWF/E wrestling. But are there really 100 great WWE wrestlers? Because I feel like it is more like 40. Am I missing something?

[Matt D]

I feel like I am a generally positive person and I do actually like WWF/E wrestling. But are there really 100 great WWE wrestlers? Because I feel like it is more like 40. Am I missing something?

Is Judy Martin on your list? Shes pretty great.