Who is the greatest booker ever?

[joeg]

We have a worst booker ever thread that has been going strong for 5 years of Vince Russo hate. I thought we should have a greatest booker ever thread. I'll start off by throwing out some of by favs - Baba, Watts, and Heyman.

[Loss]

In terms of both results and enjoyment, my pick is Riki Choshu. Made the 1/4 dome show a thing. Had multiple dome shows outside of that. Created the G-1 Climax. Made Muto, Hashimoto, Chono, and Sasaki stars. Booked highly successful interpromotional angles with WAR and UWFI. Countless great feuds and matches. King of the booking upset.

[SmartMark15]

I think Sapolsky deserves a mention here if only for the fact that his eye for talent really paid off in a lot of ways Certainly guys like Low Ki, Bryan, and Joe were already making names for themselves but the way Sapolsky gathered them and booked them in hot angles made them national and international stars. He weathered the storm of 2004 RF scandal as well as several talent raids and still kept business hot and booming for ROH for quite a long time. You can knock him for his last few years with the company but he's produced some really great stuff in his time.

 

Also, I can't attest to this first-hand, but everything I've heard about Chris Kreski's run in 2000 with the WWF lends itself to him at least being in the conversation.I saw a few January Raws and they were kept tight, entertaining, and engaging with some strong plot development.

[peachchaos]

Has anyone booked for longer than Vince McMahon?

 

By all accounts he has lived and breathed booking wrestling 24 hours a day for 30+ years now. His success is insurmountable. While he's had many collaborators over the years, he's always been the Ace booker.

 

WrestleMania. Pay Per View. Monday Night RAW. Hulkamania.

[SmartMark15]

Has anyone booked for longer than Vince McMahon?

 

By all accounts he has lived and breathed booking wrestling 24 hours a day for 30+ years now. His success is insurmountable. While he's had many collaborators over the years, he's always been the Ace booker.

 

WrestleMania. Pay Per View. Monday Night RAW. Hulkamania.

While Vince's success as a booker and a businessman will always be lauded and celebrated, I wonder how much of his legacy will be tarnished by his losers as opposed to his winners. Notable examples include the WrestleMania IX debacle, the Triple H reign of terror in the early 00s, the Invasion, etc. I certainly think that even now he still has some fantastic ideas and plans (just look at how hot the Raw main event scene is) but the misses are certainly in large number.

[Laz]

Vince is a promoter, though. He may dictate what happens but it was always somebody else who was booking it. That's led to a lot of great things but even more garbage.

 

Heyman, Dusty, Gabe, and Gary Hart are my go-to's. Those are guys who really knew how to perfectly balance the entertainment/soap opera stuff with the sport aspect, and they all had a great eye for talent and how to use it.

 

RE: Gabe's bad ROH years

Even though they were lesser quality than the years prior? They still brought two future WWE headliners (Tyler Black and Kevin Steen) to the forefront.

[Mad Dog]

I think Bill Watts is interesting as a booker because he seemed more open minded and willing to change to stay relevant. Bringing in Jerry Jarrett and actually listening to his suggestions seems like a rare quality in a booker.

 

Dusty Rhodes had a couple of really strong years with Crockett before falling off the cliff. 85 and 86 were really strong years with TV.

 

I think Mike Quackenbush had an extremely strong run as a booker from about 2009-2013 as the booker of Chikara. The BDK was a well run stable and Eddie Kingston's run as Champion was really well done. The tournament for the belt was also really strong and High Noon was a great show that paid off like 5-6 angles in a really satisfying way. The angle that closed down the promotion really ruined things but there was a period where they were firing on all cylinders creatively.

 

Whoever was booking NWA Anarchy during the Devil's Rejects run in the mid 00s created some extremely compelling weekly television.

[SmartMark15]

I think Mike Quackenbush had an extremely strong run as a booker from about 2009-2013 as the booker of Chikara. The BDK was a well run stable and Eddie Kingston's run as Champion was really well done. The tournament for the belt was also really strong and High Noon was a great show that paid off like 5-6 angles in a really satisfying way. The angle that closed down the promotion really ruined things but there was a period where they were firing on all cylinders creatively.

I'll cosign the mention for Quack. Great booker in terms of setting up character and big over the top plotlines that always seemed to pay off wonderfully. I think he deserves some credit for experimenting with the form as much as he has.

[SmartMark15]

RE: Gabe's bad ROH years

Even though they were lesser quality than the years prior? They still brought two future WWE headliners (Tyler Black and Kevin Steen) to the forefront.

I would credit Adam Pearce more for Kevin Steen's success than Sapolsky. Under Sapolsky, Kevin Steen was still just the big bully who started to turn face by being incredibly athletic.

[Mad Dog]

I think Quack has lost his luster as a booker the last couple of years but everyone does eventually. But he embraced wrestling as a comic book and made it work for a really long time. And there are some really protected concepts like the Eye of Tyr.

[Sean Liska]

I think it has to be Vince. Whether it was the perfect booking of the Mania 1 main event or getting us hyped for Brock-Braun 32 years later. So many successes. Hogan/Andre, Goldberg/Brock, Hogan/Savage, Austin/McMahon, Hogan/Orndorff, HHH/Batista, Cena/Rock, Vince/Trump, Bret/Austin, you can go on forever.

 

He's had his misses but who has a flawless record. Watts always seems a bit overrated to me, 5 good years and the territory was struggling until Dundee turned it into Memphis #2. I love Jerry Jarrett but he thought TNA was a good idea, although that could be thought of as a promotional blunder than booking. Baba let his promotion run out of steam before he died. Gabe is currently booking a lifeless product. Love Heyman but we're talking maybe 5 great years in ECW and 8 months writing SD.

[SmartMark15]

Does Vince win out on the back of sheer longevity? I mean, of course he's had a lot of successes but most anyone who's been on top of a company for that long might. His creative success has certainly risen and dipped the way any other booker's might, it's just that Vince was able to stay in business. And on the business side of things, he's had significant dips in business and we're kind of in the midst of one right now. How do these factors play into this particular argument?

[gordi]

To me, it's clearly Giant Baba. AJPW was consistently great from the mid-70s through the mid-90s. The wrestlers, the matches, and the long-term storytelling from his peak period as booker are all still at or near the top of every reasonable discussion of the best ever in pro wrestling. He managed to raise two successive generations of great stars and great performers (the Jumbo/Tsuruta generation, and the Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi/Taue generation). He never booked an embarrassing or stupid angle or ruined a potentially great worker by sticking him with a terrible gimmick. He phased himself out of the top spot and allowed others to shine. Although he was independently wealthy thanks to good real estate investments he traveled on the same bus and stayed in the same hotels with "the boys" until the end. He is almost universally beloved by everyone who ever worked for him or knew him, which is pretty rare among wrestling promoters.

Ultimately, it's his amazing body of work that makes the case for him. Two solid decades of booking a promotion that provided some of the very best wrestlers, the very best matches, and the most compelling storylines in the entire world of professional wrestling... with no glaring mis-steps along the way... and leaving an unimpeachable legacy.

[Dooley]

 

 

Also, I can't attest to this first-hand, but everything I've heard about Chris Kreski's run in 2000 with the WWF lends itself to him at least being in the conversation.I saw a few January Raws and they were kept tight, entertaining, and engaging with some strong plot development.

 

Bruce Prichard wasn't a fan of Kreski, saying something along the lines of "apparently he had a board in his office that no one ever saw". No one's really been able to explain to me what Kreski did that was so great either. Perhaps he had good organizational skills, but he seemed to be a cog in the wheel.

 

 

 

Notable examples include the WrestleMania X debacle, the Triple H reign of terror in the early 00s, the Invasion, etc. I certainly think that even now he still has some fantastic ideas and plans (just look at how hot the Raw main event scene is) but the misses are certainly in large number.

 

What are you referring to here?

 

 

 

Regarding the topic at hand, Vince laps just about everybody. Baba may be the only one who comes close.

[SmartMark15]

 

 

 

Notable examples include the WrestleMania X debacle, the Triple H reign of terror in the early 00s, the Invasion, etc. I certainly think that even now he still has some fantastic ideas and plans (just look at how hot the Raw main event scene is) but the misses are certainly in large number.

What are you referring to here?

 

Apologies, I meant WrestleMania IX with the last minute Hogan title change which just led into a second tepid Yokozuna reign.

[MoS]

I do not know how Kreski made it really special, but top to bottom the WWF in 2000 was the most well-booked in company history in my opinion. He was also reportedly the brains behind the excellent HHH-Steph-Angle ...angle, which was tremendously well booked and had brilliant foreshadowing and treatment. It was also a time when almost all storylines meshed into each other seamlessly and smoothly and everyone interacted with everyone in a way that made logical sense, and as a result everyone was over to a great extent.

 

I remember reading that he disagreed with some twist or sommething saying it made no logical sense and pointed to his storyboard/notes to show how and he got heat for it and was shortly gone. Bruce Prichard is also a sort-of Vince Russo apologise if I remember correctly, so I will probably never see eye to eye with him on booking and good bookers.

[The Thread Killer]

Like him or not, Bruce Prichard's rise to prominence as a podcaster and his subsequent willingness to give shoot interviews over the past few years have given fans greater firsthand insight into the creative workings of the WWF/WWE than had ever been possible before. Prichard was part of McMahon's inner circle from 88-91 and then from 92-08. There may have been other people who were closer to Vince - Pat Patterson namely - but he's never going to spill the family secrets or admit where any of the bodies are buried.

 

Prichard is a carny for McMahon, no doubt. But you can't argue that nobody (who is willing to go on record) knows more about the creative in WWF/WWE than he does. And based on things he has said, which has been pretty much confirmed by numerous other sources, I'd say hands down the greatest booker of all time is Vince McMahon.

 

There is sometimes a talking point which I've heard before, (primarily from people who want to give Russo credit for the Attitude Era, but others have used it as well) that Vince McMahon wasn't really the "booker" for the WWF/WWE, he was the promoter. That talking point really needs to be put to bed, once and for all. Prichard has most thoroughly debunked it, but Cornette and a few others have also verified that it isn't true. Check out the interviews given by the multitude of former WWE writers over the years.

 

Posters here have said this, and Prichard has said it out-and-out on his podcast: If you want to give Vince McMahon the blame for the crap his company has produced over the years (and Lord knows there has been a ton of it) then you have to give him the lion's share of the credit for whatever was good. Prichard has said it, as have others: nothing has ever made it onto WWF/WWE television that Vince McMahon wasn't significantly involved with in some way. At the very least he approved it going on the air. More commonly it sounds like he micromanaged, tinkered with it, and edited it. In a lot of cases he straight up created it.

 

From where I sit, that's a "booker."

 

Nobody has had more success than Vince McMahon has and it's highly likely nobody ever will. At least not in any of our lifetimes. Once again, the man has also produced a staggering amount of absolute garbage...but this is a guy who literally reshaped the entire sport of Pro Wrestling and turned it into Sports Entertainment in the process. No Vince McMahon, no Wrestlemania, no Hulkamania, no Monday Night War, no Attitude Era, the list goes on and on.

 

I don't even really like the guy all that much and I wish he hadn't done a great many of those things. But he was heavily involved in booking pretty much every single major financially successful Pro Wrestling show in North America for the past 30 + years. To me, it's a question of who is #2.

[MoS]

Iactually agree that Vince McMahon is both the greatest booker and the greatest promoter of all time by a comfortable distance. Vince at his best is untouchable. The booking of Hogan-Andre for WM 3 was genius.

 

I dunno how much Vince Sr. booked - he certainly was not the micromanager that Jr is - but he deserves credit for running a mega-territory that made massive money for decades. The Sammartino-Zybszko angle was tremendous booking, and from what I have read, Sammartino-Monsoon was excellent as well.

[concrete1992]

I think Sapolsky deserves a mention here if only for the fact that his eye for talent really paid off in a lot of ways Certainly guys like Low Ki, Bryan, and Joe were already making names for themselves but the way Sapolsky gathered them and booked them in hot angles made them national and international stars. He weathered the storm of 2004 RF scandal as well as several talent raids and still kept business hot and booming for ROH for quite a long time. You can knock him for his last few years with the company but he's produced some really great stuff in his time.

 

Also, I can't attest to this first-hand, but everything I've heard about Chris Kreski's run in 2000 with the WWF lends itself to him at least being in the conversation.I saw a few January Raws and they were kept tight, entertaining, and engaging with some strong plot development.

 

I think Gabe pretty much is a no go for the fact that he has as many BAD years as good ones. Great eye for talent. Or...I guess a stronger willingness to use great talent? Every indie darling ROH had a shot at during the past few years it seems Gabe actually tried using while ROH used them as house show fillers.

 

Quack though deserves credit for having a moderately successful promotion not off the back of having major talents throughout. Mostly built off dojo grads.

[El-P]

Choshu & Baba, for reasons already explained above.

Vince is the greatest promoter ever. Booker ? Waaaaaaay to much godawful shit over the years, way to much completely fucked up opportunities (Invasion anyone). For every great WWF/E moment, there's ten awful crappy ones.

[SmartMark15]

I think Heyman deserves a little more discussion in this thread. Certainly business wise he was a total flop, but he consistently drew a rabid audience that were devoted to the product. I wouldn't say he had an eye for talent so much as an eye for packaging. He took the crap that washed up on his doorstep and got it over.

[Mad Dog]

Heyman's run was kind of short though. By the time you get to 1998 the booking starts to decline.

[SmartMark15]

Heyman's run was kind of short though. By the time you get to 1998 the booking starts to decline.

Would you attribute this to a lack of creative quality or the continued exodus of talent? After all, he had such a strong run in 2002 with Smackdown and it says a lot that he got guys like Sandman and Public Enemy over to god like status to the crowds he was working.

[Sean Liska]

I think Heyman deserves a little more discussion in this thread. Certainly business wise he was a total flop, but he consistently drew a rabid audience that were devoted to the product. I wouldn't say he had an eye for talent so much as an eye for packaging. He took the crap that washed up on his doorstep and got it over.

I would say calling him a total flop from a business perspective is a little harsh. He gets a little underrated from that perspective. Since the emergence of national pro wrestling in the mid-80's with WWF and Crockett/WCW, what other non-major American group has experienced growth like ECW did? You have to remember that when he took over in 93, ECW was just a Northeast indy like a million other Northeast indies that have existed, mostly just popping crowds when they would bring in wrestlers who had been on national TV. For them to grow as steadily as they did in the following years, starting as a group that just ran monthly in Philly and then being able to draw 6,000 in Chicago, 5,000 in LA, 5,000 in Toronto, 4,000 in Pittsburgh, 3,000 in Buffalo, etc - who else has accomplished something close to that in the last 30 years? He didn't have major financial backing, he just had his parents' money, and what they lost in their total existence was like a few months for TNA. He continually lost stars, anyone with talent was taken from him. They experienced that growth by continually satisfying their audience, building loyalty, creating their own stars, clever stuff.

 

If I were to go with an American besides Vince, though, it would be Jerry Jarrett. He created Lawler and put him over the top in 74 when he had Lawler do that series facing the top wrestlers from around the country. He brought wrestling to the Mid-South Coliseum. The crowds they drew on a weekly basis with their population base was ridiculous. The highest rated local TV wrestling show of all-time, I think at times they were the highest rated weekly show of any type in Memphis. In my opinion the best wrestling TV show of all-time, I can watch almost any period from 79-91 at least and be highly entertained. Created the Fabs, the R'R Express, Cornette, Kamala, used Kaufman perfectly, so many classic feuds over the years. Dundee learned from him and brought Memphis to Mid-South and they did their best business ever. Placed on emphasis on pushing smaller workrate guys of the era like Eaton, Morton, Ware, Gibson, Condrey, Dundee, Rogers, of course Lawler. Was able to make money off of Memphis into the mid-90's and got out when it was no longer possible. I love that guy.

[Laz]

Were this a "greatest booker today" thread, Mark Dallas (ICW) were to get my vote. From glorified yardtard fed during the UK indy drought to running shows at the O2 Arena, and all with a focus on local talent.

 

To compare him to somebody being discussed, he's the Scottish Heyman. He makes Chris Renfrew worth watching and Renfrew makes Sandman look like Mick Foley.