Bryan Danielson's in ring ability

[shodate]

 

look at my top Han was never stiff per say i mean the realism of his mat work and grappling realism helps me buy into the work more simply put Epscplly realistic looking Matwork realistic looking striking is harder to pull off minus Chops

Have you ever seen a non-worked grappling match?

 

Watch something from ADCC, for example, and compare that to the realistic looking mat work you keep brining up from Han's matches and you'll see the huge difference.

 

All the banana splits and contrived holds Han pulls of are almost impossible/very rare in grappling. And no, that's not a knock on Han, because I recognize his skill level, but it's just the reality of it.

 

And as I have expressed before in other threads, a lot of questionable transitions are done in shoot style (guys transitioning from full mounts into his opponents guard? guys transitioning from side guard to half guard? poorly executed kimura's and americana's are a dime a dozen, etc.), however if you take that into account you will see it's not as realistic looking as you make it out to be and thus it drowns down the enjoyment of the style.

 

I enjoy shoot style for what it is and try and ignore the glaring flaws in the grappling exchanges. I mean, do you really think Han could pull off a banana split in a real grappling exchange against another quality grappler? Obviously not. And again, that's not a knock on his ability, but it's just the reality of it. Heck, you don't even see high level skill grapplers pulling off banana splits against low level inexperienced grapplers and much less would you see a high level skill grappler pull it off as easily against another high quality grappler.

 

 

Yes went to some SAW stuff bakc in the day and yes that was not worked

 

and yes iv seen mma Fights End with a Split so it possible sambo was Dominate for the almost 15 year that mma wasa Thing or at in Japan were Grappling was more Common than in early UFCs hence why people with solid grappling base back in the style style days dominated for the most part all of MMA

 

hell Hans own trainee in Fedor is call by many as the best Fighter of all time and another RINGs RUSSA Guy and volk han Trainee in Ilkuine gave Igor Vochancchn his first ever Legit Loss [ the other one at that time being a loss that when Igor put his chin in someone's eye in bs DQ ]

 

and i know i spelt Igor;'s 2nd name worng i never been able to spell it i put dq igor loss ant the same level of oddness as the Loss Fedor had to TK you know the one the the cut over eye that was opened up by an accidetal elbow by TK back then elbow were banned in Pride i Think hence why i said an accidental elbow

 

all that aside most wrestling commentators in the west would no know a split if thye saw one anyway especially in wwe because legitimate high-end mat work is dead cause wwe teach people how to work and not how to wrestlie with good technique

 

and very few people that train ahe any technical skill ie stuff liek SAW Sambo Judo JuJutsu or any thing like that in that background

 

that is another mind set i have tthe technique vs technical skill split Dragon ahs some of both based on the fact the did train t=with Coture he must have

 

Aj has none of these coimg from WCW training Hurt him in that way

 

 

 

also Dragon trained the coture did it not ?

[Edwin]

 

 

look at my top Han was never stiff per say i mean the realism of his mat work and grappling realism helps me buy into the work more simply put Epscplly realistic looking Matwork realistic looking striking is harder to pull off minus Chops

Have you ever seen a non-worked grappling match?

 

Watch something from ADCC, for example, and compare that to the realistic looking mat work you keep brining up from Han's matches and you'll see the huge difference.

 

All the banana splits and contrived holds Han pulls of are almost impossible/very rare in grappling. And no, that's not a knock on Han, because I recognize his skill level, but it's just the reality of it.

 

And as I have expressed before in other threads, a lot of questionable transitions are done in shoot style (guys transitioning from full mounts into his opponents guard? guys transitioning from side guard to half guard? poorly executed kimura's and americana's are a dime a dozen, etc.), however if you take that into account you will see it's not as realistic looking as you make it out to be and thus it drowns down the enjoyment of the style.

 

I enjoy shoot style for what it is and try and ignore the glaring flaws in the grappling exchanges. I mean, do you really think Han could pull off a banana split in a real grappling exchange against another quality grappler? Obviously not. And again, that's not a knock on his ability, but it's just the reality of it. Heck, you don't even see high level skill grapplers pulling off banana splits against low level inexperienced grapplers and much less would you see a high level skill grappler pull it off as easily against another high quality grappler.

 

 

Yes went to some SAW stuff bakc in the day and yes that was not worked

 

and yes iv seen mma Fights End with a Split so it possible sambo was Dominate for the almost 15 year that mma wasa Thing or at in Japan were Grappling was more Common than in early UFCs hence why people with solid grappling base back in the style style days dominated for the most part all of MMA

 

hell Hans own trainee in Fedor is call by many as the best Fighter of all time and another RINGs RUSSA Guy and volk han Trainee in Ilkuine gave Igor Vochancchn his first ever Legit Loss [ the other one at that time being a loss that when Igor put his chin in someone's eye in bs DQ ]

 

and i know i spelt Igor;'s 2nd name worng i never been able to spell it i put dq igor loss ant the same level of oddness as the Loss Fedor had to TK you know the one the the cut over eye that was opened up by an accidetal elbow by TK back then elbow were banned in Pride i Think hence why i said an accidental elbow

 

all that aside most wrestling commentators in the west would no know a split if thye saw one anyway especially in wwe because legitimate high-end mat work is dead cause wwe teach people how to work and not how to wrestlie with good technique

 

and very few people that train ahe any technical skill ie stuff liek SAW Sambo Judo JuJutsu or any thing like that in that background

 

that is another mind set i have tthe technique vs technical skill split Dragon ahs some of both based on the fact the did train t=with Coture he must have

 

Aj has none of these coimg from WCW training Hurt him in that way

 

 

 

also Dragon trained the coture did it not ?

 

Can you name more than 3 fights with a high level grapplers ending in banana splits? I'm legit curious to see you pull this off as I'm a huge MMA and grappling fan and I've never seen this pulled off between high caliber fighters/grapplers. Please don't bother with small regional fighters or grapplers who've been training for months. I mean with guys who're legit top fighters or grapplers.

 

I don't think I've ever seen Han in a straight up shoot. I'm not saying there isn't any, but I personally haven't seen any. Which fights of his were straight up shoots? I've seen a lot of his fights listed on the Sherdog Fight Finder and those are confirmed works -- i.e.; his matches against Maeda and Tamura and his final match against Funaki are confirmed works, yet they still have them listed on there even though they've been told multiple times those aren't shoot fights.

 

And Fedor is not the greatest fighter of all-time, but that's another argument for another thread and one I won't bother getting into detail here.

 

No, Danielson has never trained under Randy Couture. He trained under Robert Drysdale at Randy's Xtreme Couture gym in Las Vegas and under John Crouch at the MMA Lab in Arizona. He is/was a BJJ blue belt.

[fxnj]

After RINGS turned into shoots, Han racked up several wins over legit wrestlers and also had an exciting decision loss to Noguiera despite pushing 40 and coming into the bout sick. This is all info that's easy to find with a simple Google search. Han definitely had ability to do shoots and probably could have done pretty well if he joined the UFC or Pancrase.

[Edwin]

After RINGS turned into shoots, Han racked up several wins over legit wrestlers and also had an exciting decision loss to Noguiera despite pushing 40 and coming into the bout sick. This is all info that's easy to find with a simple Google search. Han definitely had ability to do shoots and probably could have done pretty well if he joined the UFC or Pancrase.

RINGS is credited as an MMA organization from 1995 onward, but there's been worked matches from that period and afterwards.

 

I've seen a ton of shoot fights from RINGS, namely from Hendo, Big Nog, Fedor, Arona, etc., but I've never seen a Han shoot, so I'm curious.

 

Edit: Just found some fights and his stand up looked really bad and takedown defense was average. His ground game seemed pretty good in one fight against some other European fighter, but Big Nog was riding for the majority of their fight and he almost got kneebar'd, but Big Nog is great on the ground, so it's nothing be ashamed of.

[shodate]

After RINGS turned into shoots, Han racked up several wins over legit wrestlers and also had an exciting decision loss to Noguiera despite pushing 40 and coming into the bout sick. This is all info that's easy to find with a simple Google search. Han definitely had ability to do shoots and probably could have done pretty well if he joined the UFC or Pancrase.

there is this fact as well

[Jetlag]

Can you name more than 3 fights with a high level grapplers ending in banana splits? I'm legit curious to see you pull this off as I'm a huge MMA and grappling fan and I've never seen this pulled off between high caliber fighters/grapplers. Please don't bother with small regional fighters or grapplers who've been training for months. I mean with guys who're legit top fighters or grapplers.

I don't think I've ever seen Han in a straight up shoot. I'm not saying there isn't any, but I personally haven't seen any. Which fights of his were straight up shoots? I've seen a lot of his fights listed on the Sherdog Fight Finder and those are confirmed works -- i.e.; his matches against Maeda and Tamura and his final match against Funaki are confirmed works, yet they still have them listed on there even though they've been told multiple times those aren't shoot fights.

 

Dude, times were different. Back then few people had any idea about what "real fighting" looks like outside of stuff like Shooto or SAW, and the UFC wasn't exactly full of high end grapplers. Volk would also bust out all kinds of wonky leglocks and cross heel hooks, which are still a main weapon of the Craig Jones' of this world, and you do see many of these esoteric/weird moves in sambo competitions still.

 

 

A banana split is a legit move. Not one that works on everyone, but just because you don't see it in high level fights doesn't mean it's not realistic. A lot of people wouldn't think of doing a twister/wrestler's guillotine in a submission match either until Eddie Bravo came along. Aside from that, a match doesn't have to look like a real fight in order to look more realistic than another; I can award Jerry Lawler realism points based on his strikes actually looking hurty compared to some thigh slappy indy wrestler with silky soft strikes.

[El-P]

Realism has nothing to do with pro-wrestling.

[shodate]

Realism has nothing to do with pro-wrestling.

to each there own

[El-P]

Actually, no. Pro-wrestling, in essence, has nothing to do with realism. Now, you can enjoy the things in pro-wrestling that verge toward a more "realistic aesthetic", to each his own indeed on those matters, but pro-wrestling has never been and will never be about "realism", whatever that means anyway (unless pro-wrestling is actually *professionnal wrestling*, if you catch my drift, and Kurt Angle is the best ever then). Pro-wrestling is symbolism.

[Matt D]

It's about the illusion of real, about minimizing pain and actual violence and maximizing emotional and narrative effect, about getting as much value as possible for the smallest personal cost, while creating a suspension of disbelief in the audience and convincing people to invest their money, time, and hearts.

[Laz]

"Realism never mattered in pro wrestling" is a revisionist thing considering after the business spent most of its existence trying to maintain kayfabe. Regardless, however, if you're going to tell me AJ Styles couldn't maintain a sense of legitimacy in the ring after watching his snugger work earlier on (particularly vs. LowKi and Bryan) then I don't think you understand the line that pro wrestling is meant to blur.

 

It's like how John Wick is a more realistic take on gunplay than your typical action movie. Is it realistic? No, pulling off that many headshots against that many combatants is ridiculous, and Wick would've been gunned down quickly. Is it more believable than other action movies? Incredibly so, as it blurs the line that much better due to allowing the action to carry weight.

 

Defending AJ Styles has been something a lot of people have done for the last 16 years. Maybe it's time to stop because he didn't do worked shoot and worked PRO WRESTLING.

[El-P]

"Realism never mattered in pro wrestling" is a revisionist thing considering after the business spent most of its existence trying to maintain kayfabe.

 

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd.

 

And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler.

[GOTNW]

El-P please stick to throwing feces out the window and spare us outdated french philosophy arguments you aren't Barthes.

[El-P]

El-P please stick to throwing feces out the window and spare us outdated french philosophy arguments you aren't Barthes.

 

Unprovocated insults out of nowhere (with a little wee bit xenophobic tense I see) ? Nice. I have not interaced with you in a long time, but I see you're as personable as ever.

[FMKK]

 

"Realism never mattered in pro wrestling" is a revisionist thing considering after the business spent most of its existence trying to maintain kayfabe.

 

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd.

 

And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler.

 

 

 

As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc. Everyone knows it's pro-wrestling and it's not on the up and up but it's about producing matches/angles that seek to capture the look/feel of a real fight or struggle within the confines of professional wrestling as opposed to the more striking fantasy elements (OTT gimmicks and the like) or the acrobatic stunt shows (think of any Will Ospreay match). I think everyone is basically aware of that being what we mean when we use the term 'realism' to describe wrestling.

 

So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol.

[Loss]

Bryan Danielson's in-ring ability

[El-P]

 

 

"Realism never mattered in pro wrestling" is a revisionist thing considering after the business spent most of its existence trying to maintain kayfabe.

 

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd.

 

And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler.

 

 

As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc.

 

So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol.

 

I agree with the bolded parts. Then again, All Japan in the 90's was super gritty, but although I would use the term, or "stiff", you can always poke holes all over it in term of what I think shodate refers to as "realism" (but maybe I'm wrong, after all, he mentionned Yasha Kurenai in his HOF. YASHA FUCKING KURENAI !!!), which I understand as something looking the most "real" as in how a "real professionnal wrestling" match would look. Hey, I'm an old-school shoot-style fan, Tamura, Han & Khousaka were my heroes at one point, so I'm all for that aesthetic. But to disparage workers because they don't work that particular way (or toward that kind of execution of holds and strikes) seems kinda odd to me. Hell, if we're talking about the stiff and gritty, more "realistic" style of All Japan, no one was as awkward and unrealistic as Akira Taue. Maybe shodate doesn't like Taue though...

 

Oh, yeah, Daniel Bryan. Well he's great too.

[shodate]

 

 

"Realism never mattered in pro wrestling" is a revisionist thing considering after the business spent most of its existence trying to maintain kayfabe.

 

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd.

 

And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler.

 

 

 

As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc. Everyone knows it's pro-wrestling and it's not on the up and up but it's about producing matches/angles that seek to capture the look/feel of a real fight or struggle within the confines of professional wrestling as opposed to the more striking fantasy elements (OTT gimmicks and the like) or the acrobatic stunt shows (think of any Will Ospreay match). I think everyone is basically aware of that being what we mean when we use the term 'realism' to describe wrestling.

 

So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol.

 

Fantasy is no reason for Ipsulabilty and you can quote me on this

 

and on topic I think dragon is very good for the reason of his realism

 

also any one who says just turn your brain off to anything is not my sort of person i just cannot turn ooff and become a vegetable when viewing anything yes even wrestling is someone style lacks internal logic i call then a bad worker

[FMKK]

 

 

 

"Realism never mattered in pro wrestling" is a revisionist thing considering after the business spent most of its existence trying to maintain kayfabe.

 

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd.

 

And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler.

 

 

As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc.

 

So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol.

 

I agree with the bolded parts. Then again, All Japan in the 90's was super gritty, but although I would use the term, or "stiff", you can always poke holes all over it in term of what I think shodate refers to as "realism" (but maybe I'm wrong, after all, he mentionned Yasha Kurenai in his HOF. YASHA FUCKING KURENAI !!!), which I understand as something looking the most "real" as in how a "real professionnal wrestling" match would look. Hey, I'm an old-school shoot-style fan, Tamura, Han & Khousaka were my heroes at one point, so I'm all for that aesthetic. But to disparage workers because they don't work that particular way (or toward that kind of execution of holds and strikes) seems kinda odd to me. Hell, if we're talking about the stiff and gritty, more "realistic" style of All Japan, no one was as awkward and unrealistic as Akira Taue. Maybe shodate doesn't like Taue though...

 

Oh, yeah, Daniel Bryan. Well he's great too.

 

 

I don't think it makes much sense to disparage AJ Styles of all people on these grounds. Different strokes for different folks in terms of working styles I guess. People value different things in their pro-wrestling.

 

I'm really not a fan of those super choreographed looking Ospreay vs Ricochet matches for example and people often cite those as being bad because of a lack of 'realism' but to me it's something more to do with preferring matches that look less rehearsed and harking back to workers that called it in the ring? Maybe I'm misreading that but that's certainly part of why I don't like them so much.

[shodate]

 

 

 

"Realism never mattered in pro wrestling" is a revisionist thing considering after the business spent most of its existence trying to maintain kayfabe.

 

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd.

 

And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler.

 

 

As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc.

 

So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol.

 

I agree with the bolded parts. Then again, All Japan in the 90's was super gritty, but although I would use the term, or "stiff", you can always poke holes all over it in term of what I think shodate refers to as "realism" (but maybe I'm wrong, after all, he mentionned Yasha Kurenai in his HOF. YASHA FUCKING KURENAI !!!), which I understand as something looking the most "real" as in how a "real professionnal wrestling" match would look. Hey, I'm an old-school shoot-style fan, Tamura, Han & Khousaka were my heroes at one point, so I'm all for that aesthetic. But to disparage workers because they don't work that particular way (or toward that kind of execution of holds and strikes) seems kinda odd to me. Hell, if we're talking about the stiff and gritty, more "realistic" style of All Japan, no one was as awkward and unrealistic as Akira Taue. Maybe shodate doesn't like Taue though...

 

Oh, yeah, Daniel Bryan. Well he's great too.

 

i view taue as like a nightclub doorman type ie he never had to be the most elegant type he fit that role well personlly if he did begin later than the other three as he did i count akiyama as being on the same level as Kawada Kobashi and Misawa

[shodate]

 

 

 

 

"Realism never mattered in pro wrestling" is a revisionist thing considering after the business spent most of its existence trying to maintain kayfabe.

 

None of the old-school style stuff was "realistic". I just watched that video of that French wrestler in the 60's explaining how things work, despite the whole "kayfabe" stuff, pro-wrestling has always been seen for what it was, a carny trick. It never prevented the emotional involvment because real emotions don't need "realism" as a vehicule to be produced on and by a crowd.

 

And yeah, AJ Styles is a great, great fucking pro-wrestler.

 

 

As far as realism goes in pro-wrestling, I feel like it's an aesthetic above all. To me its almost synonymous with something being 'gritty' in that it favours a down to earth presentation, emphasises physicality, good working punches etc.

 

So I don't see the problem with using it in that context s long as no one is under any illusions about the actual realism of pro-wrestling lol.

 

I agree with the bolded parts. Then again, All Japan in the 90's was super gritty, but although I would use the term, or "stiff", you can always poke holes all over it in term of what I think shodate refers to as "realism" (but maybe I'm wrong, after all, he mentionned Yasha Kurenai in his HOF. YASHA FUCKING KURENAI !!!), which I understand as something looking the most "real" as in how a "real professionnal wrestling" match would look. Hey, I'm an old-school shoot-style fan, Tamura, Han & Khousaka were my heroes at one point, so I'm all for that aesthetic. But to disparage workers because they don't work that particular way (or toward that kind of execution of holds and strikes) seems kinda odd to me. Hell, if we're talking about the stiff and gritty, more "realistic" style of All Japan, no one was as awkward and unrealistic as Akira Taue. Maybe shodate doesn't like Taue though...

 

Oh, yeah, Daniel Bryan. Well he's great too.

 

 

I don't think it makes much sense to disparage AJ Styles of all people on these grounds. Different strokes for different folks in terms of working styles I guess. People value different things in their pro-wrestling.

 

I'm really not a fan of those super choreographed looking Ospreay vs Ricochet matches for example and people often cite those as being bad because of a lack of 'realism' but to me it's something more to do with preferring matches that look less rehearsed and harking back to workers that called it in the ring? Maybe I'm misreading that but that's certainly part of why I don't like them so much.

 

ypue have almost read me right there

[El-P]

i view taue as like a nightclub doorman type

 

That's actually pretty funny.

 

I love me some Taue. I love most every former sumo guy (except Kitao).

 

I'm really not a fan of those super choreographed looking Ospreay vs Ricochet matches for example and people often cite those as being bad because of a lack of 'realism' but to me it's something more to do with preferring matches that look less rehearsed and harking back to workers that called it in the ring? Maybe I'm misreading that but that's certainly part of why I don't like them so much.

 

My problem with Ospreay is not that it looks rehearsed but that it looks ridiculous to the point of being stupid. He can do so much physically, but he just does way too fucking much. But actually, the worst thing about him is not his Petey Williams on crack kinda work, but his godawful facials and selling. I never had the same feeling about Puma (yeah, if people call Daniel Bryan "Dragon" in 2018, I can call Ricochet "Puma" as an LU fan) in term of doing too much crazy shit. He doesn't go above the "ridiculous" line to me. Ospreay also has a godawful emo-vaporwave look, while Ricochet looks sexy as fuck.

 

(yeah, Daniel Bryan, we know, but this thread has gone astray anyway)

[shodate]

this whole long exchange come from my original Comment of i think Dragon could Have worked will with a Prime Volk or prime Tamura ad fit in well while i di no think Aj Could have that show versatility in my view of it since he could work the Kings road influenced Us indie style and RINGS style of worked shoot style something im 100% aj could not work

[El-P]

AJ is versatile as fuck. He can work babyface, heel, do a long bomb throwing epic (Cena), current NJ main event style, classic X-div matches against Joe & Daniels, carry Abyss to a great match in bloody gimmick brawls, is a terrific tag team worker to boot. There's no one he can't have a decent match against. Hell, he made Shane-O-Mac fun. Dealing in "what if" doesn't mean shit. Neither AJ nor Bryan ever worked shoot-style (which was mostly dead anyway as anything relevant by that point). Let's compare what is comparable. And by that I mean, what actually exists.

[Laz]

And I still wholly disagree, as his career has shown his ability to bring his style and meld it with whatever his opponent could do in addition to some early highlights displaying he could work a more MMA-influenced ground game with an opponent who was more well-versed in it. Not that AJ was a superb mat worker, more that he could be easily led by somebody more experienced and has never shown any sign of being difficult to work with.

 

Back to Bryan, am I alone in loathing his more grapplefuck work? I hate the 30-Minute Iron Man he had with Doug Williams, felt the "shoot style" match he worked with Tommy End was a boring wankfest, and feel it's when he fully embraces the more symbolic (good phrasing, El-P) nature of pro wrestling is when he proves how great he is.