Bryan Danielson's in ring ability

[shodate]

AJ is versatile as fuck. He can work babyface, heel, do a long bomb throwing epic (Cena), current NJ main event style, classic X-div matches against Joe & Daniels, carry Abyss to a great match in bloody gimmick brawls, is a terrific tag team worker to boot. There's no one he can't have a decent match against. Hell, he made Shane-O-Mac fun. Dealing in "what if" doesn't mean shit. Neither AJ nor Bryan ever worked shoot-style (which was mostly dead anyway as anything relevant by that point). Let's compare what is comparable. And by that I mean, what actually exists.

New Japan these days is Juat KIngs Road as well that match with Tommy end in WXW iin the shootstyle thing they abmtion i think its called

 

what saying i think Dragon could hang with Han or hell Hedeki Suzuki or Sakaragi Yuki[ Tiger's mask] in mat based classisc and make it look good and feel real ois fact im my book since i seen him work that mat based style somthing AJ has alway lacked based on all of seen of him

 

these days strong style is just a marking term NJPW has but been that way for 10 or more year

[Edwin]

Bryan Danielson's in-ring ability

This would be the discussion if someone stopped comparing every single worker in every thread to Volk Han...

 

IIRC even the Usos in one of the WWE threads were compared to Volk Han...

[shodate]

And I still wholly disagree, as his career has shown his ability to bring his style and meld it with whatever his opponent could do in addition to some early highlights displaying he could work a more MMA-influenced ground game with an opponent who was more well-versed in it. Not that AJ was a superb mat worker, more that he could be easily led by somebody more experienced and has never shown any sign of being difficult to work with.

 

Back to Bryan, am I alone in loathing his more grapplefuck work? I hate the 30-Minute Iron Man he had with Doug Williams, felt the "shoot style" match he worked with Tommy End was a boring wankfest, and feel it's when he fully embraces the more symbolic (good phrasing, El-P) nature of pro wrestling is when he proves how great he is.

 

I loved the Williams match and love the end match even more i would have loved dragon to work iGF or Real Japan too

 

LAZ i nice to tallk with some one with such a polar opposite view to me cuase i hate more show than Go workers

[SPS]

 

Yes went to some SAW stuff bakc in the day and yes that was not worked

 

 

and yes iv seen mma Fights End with a Split so it possible sambo was Dominate for the almost 15 year that mma wasa Thing or at in Japan were Grappling was more Common than in early UFCs hence why people with solid grappling base back in the style style days dominated for the most part all of MMA

 

hell Hans own trainee in Fedor is call by many as the best Fighter of all time and another RINGs RUSSA Guy and volk han Trainee in Ilkuine gave Igor Vochancchn his first ever Legit Loss [ the other one at that time being a loss that when Igor put his chin in someone's eye in bs DQ ]

 

and i know i spelt Igor;'s 2nd name worng i never been able to spell it i put dq igor loss ant the same level of oddness as the Loss Fedor had to TK you know the one the the cut over eye that was opened up by an accidetal elbow by TK back then elbow were banned in Pride i Think hence why i said an accidental elbow

 

all that aside most wrestling commentators in the west would no know a split if thye saw one anyway especially in wwe because legitimate high-end mat work is dead cause wwe teach people how to work and not how to wrestlie with good technique

 

and very few people that train ahe any technical skill ie stuff liek SAW Sambo Judo JuJutsu or any thing like that in that background

 

that is another mind set i have tthe technique vs technical skill split Dragon ahs some of both based on the fact the did train t=with Coture he must have

 

Aj has none of these coimg from WCW training Hurt him in that way

 

 

 

also Dragon trained the coture did it not ?

 

 

First Sambo was not dominate in the first 15 years of MMA(meaning 1993-2008), it had only a handful of practitioners that made it to the top of the elite promotions. Fedor Emelianenko,Andrei Arelovski, and Oleg Taktarov being the 3 biggest with guys like Sergei Kharitonov,Mikhail Ilyukhin,Andrei Semenov,Amar Suloev,Aleksander Emelianenko being highly ranked. That's less than 10 fighters who are definitively Sambo fighters and not guys from other arts who also did some Sambo.

 

Nowhere near being dominate as there are more UFC champions alone not accounting for PRIDE or other big name promotions from 1993-2008 that practiced other disciplines that had more successful representatives than Sambo.

 

Second Fedor didn't lose to TK in PRIDE but in RINGS(which you seem to talk about a lot so I don't know how you didn't realize this). It was due to a cut from an illegal elbow by TK as in RINGS elbows were only allowed if you wore elbow pads and as this was a Tournament(The King of Kings Tournament) someone had to advance and winner had to be declared so TK was given the TKO victory.

 

Also as mentioned Danielson didn't train with Randy Couture, only at his Vegas gym and with Couture's grappling coach and Bryan's roomate Neil Melanson, a great grappler and catch wrestling instructor.

[El-P]

IIRC even the Usos in one of the WWE threads were compared to Volk Han...

 

I have the feeling this will end up being a PWO meme in no time.

[El-P]

New Japan these days is Juat KIngs Road as well

 

Ok, so whereas we can't really say anything as far as Bryan is concerned, because he never worked in NOAH as a main eventer, we can state the fact AJ Styles has actually mastered Kings Road^tm, and he is the one who should really be put on the same level as Misawa, Kobashi & Kawada.

[shodate]

 

Bryan Danielson's in-ring ability

This would be the discussion if someone stopped comparing every single worker in every thread to Volk Han...

 

IIRC even the Usos in one of the WWE threads were compared to Volk Han...

 

i never made the comparesion i just use him as my measuring stick when talking about in ring abilty

 

in that Tag team Top topic i said my eaxct word were

 

are they a tv ratings draw on the level of the Crush Gals were in Japan in the us and i said i know Japanese and us tv rtaings systems are different but i use the Japanese system since is simpler

 

Crush were at the avering 25.00 at there Highest ponit 1/4 people were tuning in to Fuji TV each Week that is of the total population of Japan ahve the uso draw 25.00 ratings

[El-P]

Yeah, comparing the Usos to the Crush Gals made so much more sense....

[Edwin]

i never made the comparesion i just use him as my measuring stick when talking about in ring abilty

OK, so to properly grasp someones in ring ability we must compare them to Volk Han?

 

And cool on the Usos and Crush Gals comparisons as El-P noted.

 

I'm done with this thread.

[shodate]

 

 

Yes went to some SAW stuff bakc in the day and yes that was not worked

 

 

and yes iv seen mma Fights End with a Split so it possible sambo was Dominate for the almost 15 year that mma wasa Thing or at in Japan were Grappling was more Common than in early UFCs hence why people with solid grappling base back in the style style days dominated for the most part all of MMA

 

hell Hans own trainee in Fedor is call by many as the best Fighter of all time and another RINGs RUSSA Guy and volk han Trainee in Ilkuine gave Igor Vochancchn his first ever Legit Loss [ the other one at that time being a loss that when Igor put his chin in someone's eye in bs DQ ]

 

and i know i spelt Igor;'s 2nd name worng i never been able to spell it i put dq igor loss ant the same level of oddness as the Loss Fedor had to TK you know the one the the cut over eye that was opened up by an accidetal elbow by TK back then elbow were banned in Pride i Think hence why i said an accidental elbow

 

all that aside most wrestling commentators in the west would no know a split if thye saw one anyway especially in wwe because legitimate high-end mat work is dead cause wwe teach people how to work and not how to wrestlie with good technique

 

and very few people that train ahe any technical skill ie stuff liek SAW Sambo Judo JuJutsu or any thing like that in that background

 

that is another mind set i have tthe technique vs technical skill split Dragon ahs some of both based on the fact the did train t=with Coture he must have

 

Aj has none of these coimg from WCW training Hurt him in that way

 

 

 

also Dragon trained the coture did it not ?

 

 

First Sambo was not dominate in the first 15 years of MMA(meaning 1993-2008), it had only a handful of practitioners that made it to the top of the elite promotions. Fedor Emelianenko,Andrei Arelovski, and Oleg Taktarov being the 3 biggest with guys like Sergei Kharitonov,Mikhail Ilyukhin,Andrei Semenov,Amar Suloev,Aleksander Emelianenko being highly ranked. That's less than 10 fighters who are definitively Sambo fighters and not guys from other arts who also did some Sambo.

 

Nowhere near being dominate as there are more UFC champions alone not accounting for PRIDE or other big name promotions from 1993-2008 that practiced other disciplines that had more successful representatives than Sambo.

 

Second Fedor didn't lose to TK in PRIDE but in RINGS(which you seem to talk about a lot so I don't know how you didn't realize this). It was due to a cut from an illegal elbow by TK as in RINGS elbows were only allowed if you wore elbow pads and as this was a Tournament(The King of Kings Tournament) someone had to advance and winner had to be declared so TK was given the TKO victory.

 

Also as mentioned Danielson didn't train with Randy Couture, only at his Vegas gym and with Couture's grappling coach and Bryan's roomate Neil Melanson, a great grappler and catch wrestling instructor.

 

honest mistake

and i still call that bs loss for Fedor no matter the reasoning of it as much as love RINGS for MMA i was always Pancrase or PRIDE or Shooto guy that i why i tought it was Pride

 

UFC for most of the first 10 years was not even TOP level promotion

 

also they still have not manged to beat Pride's best adtencede record and youmay say pride never did UFC's PPV numbers PPV was never huge Thing in Japan its on in japanese mentality of consumption for it to be big Japan biggest numbers of PPV ever was around a 0.35

[shodate]

 

i never made the comparesion i just use him as my measuring stick when talking about in ring abilty

OK, so to properly grasp someones in ring ability we must compare them to Volk Han?

 

And cool on the Usos and Crush Gals comparisons as El-P noted.

 

I'm done with this thread.

 

hes my personal mesurting stickj nt yours my own personaly one

[shodate]

Yeah, comparing the Usos to the Crush Gals made so much more sense....

Meaning

 

there both tag teams

Fuji tv had aroud the same level of market shre pre crush gals as USA has now had around 8.5% of the share as a whole pre crush era and zenjo was not evem iys most viewd show unlike RAW with USA

[Laz]

 

 

New Japan these days is Juat KIngs Road as well

Ok, so whereas we can't really say anything as far as Bryan is concerned, because he never worked in NOAH as a main eventer, we can state the fact AJ Styles has actually mastered Kings Road^tm, and he is the one who should really be put on the same level as Misawa, Kobashi & Kawada.

That...you know, I...

 

mindblown.gif

[FMKK]

 

New Japan these days is Juat KIngs Road as well

 

Ok, so whereas we can't really say anything as far as Bryan is concerned, because he never worked in NOAH as a main eventer, we can state the fact AJ Styles has actually mastered Kings Road^tm, and he is the one who should really be put on the same level as Misawa, Kobashi & Kawada.

 

 

It's the EL-P O from outta nowhere!

[Jetlag]

Realism has nothing to do with pro-wrestling.

 

I'm probably stretching it by now, but if you saw a wrestling match, and then the exact same match again except this time with extremely loose moves, punches and dropkicks that miss by a mile and the other guy still bumps, visible cooperation for the moves etc, would both matche be equally good?

[FMKK]

 

 

Realism has nothing to do with pro-wrestling.

I'm probably stretching it by now, but if you saw a wrestling match, and then the exact same match again except this time with extremely loose moves, punches and dropkicks that miss by a mile and the other guy still bumps, visible cooperation for the moves etc, would both matche be equally good?

If I saw a play and one of the actors pulled out his script to check the lines it would impact the quality of the performance but it would be because of poor execution rather than realism of the story or whatever

[dawho5]

Reading through this I have some observations. You probably won't like all of them. Or any of them?

 

1. I don't know if shodate is a troll. He has some of the hallmarks of it, but could very well just be a guy who has to respond to everything and get the last word in. He actually does make some valid points though. At the very least get the idea in your head that if you address one of his points he is going to respond to you.

 

2. IF he is a troll you all play his game as if you'd never seen one before. First, you let him frame the discussion, leading to a Daniel Bryan thread turning into...whatever the Hell this is. Second, trolls need you to try and prove them wrong. It's what makes them work. It's why they do what they do. Solution is simple. Stop. Just fucking stop. And discuss the topic of the thread regardless of the intrusions of other topics. I can see the A.J. argument, but the rest is superfluous.

 

3. His English typing is not great. But 95% of the time I know what he's getting at. That is enough to communicate right?

 

I'm done playing the exasperated dad now.

[FMKK]

I feel like, troll or otherwise, a few interesting points about realism were raised so I dont see the issue in the conversation railing off in that direction

[Matt D]

Plus, we've all spoken so much with ourselves about this stuff that yeah, I mean, no offense to the OP who is also new, but if we have to compare Bryan's "Ability" to Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada or go on about the value of realism in pro-wrestling using Bryan and Volk Han as lenses... I guess I know which way I'm going to fall.

[dawho5]

Interesting point for sure. One that can be copied into it's own thread and discussed there.

 

In the vein of trying to get things back on track I will offer several things.

 

I do agree that modern NJ style is heavily based on AJPW of the 90s. I think it affected a lot of wrestling fans, some of them wrestlers who borrowed aspects of it for their own use. I would say the same for most American wrestling. Whether or not that translates to exactly what Taue, Kobashi, Kawada and Misawa were doing I don't know.

 

I would also point out that Daniel Bryan did have some major bouts with KENTA for the GHC junior title that would count as "King's Road" style. And although it may seem like faint praise, he seemed more interested in putting on a match that had internal logic, not just getting his shit in, than KENTA did. So if we are using stylistic references as cred, Bryan has some there even if not the same immersion as Styles has in NJPW.

[Cap]

Plus, we've all spoken so much with ourselves about this stuff that yeah, I mean, no offense to the OP who is also new, but if we have to compare Bryan's "Ability" to Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada or go on about the value of realism in pro-wrestling using Bryan and Volk Han as lenses... I guess I know which way I'm going to fall.

Yeah. I had that problem when I first joined up years back. It was tough to tell what people had gone over before and what might be interesting. That said, i do think that this was a timely question that could use a revisit in this case. As i said with my post (burried somewhere between AJ Styles and Volk Han), my take on him actually changed a bit recently, not a lot, but a lot.

 

To me this is most interesting not as a direct comparison, but to think about what the WWE is getting right now. In my mind they have probably the most stacked roster in the history of wrestling and they are about to add an all-time great, 100% top shelf wrestler. I think you can think of this like adding someone who is Misawa/Kobashi/Kawada-esque.... or Flair/Funk-esque... or Santo/Casas/Dandy-Esque.... however you think of it all-time great. That is the real story to me and in turn the comparison actually made some sense.

 

That may all seem a little off topic, but I honestly lost the plot with this thread a while back and couldn't be bothered to go back and regain it.

[shodate]

Reading through this I have some observations. You probably won't like all of them. Or any of them?

 

1. I don't know if shodate is a troll. He has some of the hallmarks of it, but could very well just be a guy who has to respond to everything and get the last word in. He actually does make some valid points though. At the very least get the idea in your head that if you address one of his points he is going to respond to you.

 

2. IF he is a troll you all play his game as if you'd never seen one before. First, you let him frame the discussion, leading to a Daniel Bryan thread turning into...whatever the Hell this is. Second, trolls need you to try and prove them wrong. It's what makes them work. It's why they do what they do. Solution is simple. Stop. Just fucking stop. And discuss the topic of the thread regardless of the intrusions of other topics. I can see the A.J. argument, but the rest is superfluous.

 

3. His English typing is not great. But 95% of the time I know what he's getting at. That is enough to communicate right?

 

I'm done playing the exasperated dad now.

 

i im 100% not trolling[ im just 100% sincere in what i believe] use have my personally measuring sticks for everything and if you look up my top 100 list Volk in the top rated modern worker so when we frame a topic about abilty i will use him as my stick his my number 4 just to say

 

yes and i like to respond to everything not becuase i like ot get in the; the last word but so i know that I have everything covered in any topic that talks about

 

i began judung on realsim when i was around 12 asther i want ot my first ever MMA event andsaid ot my self wrestling in this county will loose unless it Fouces more on realism was over years ago look wrestling here is now more poplra than MMA again unlike in the us were its lost the war thanks you the embrace for Russoian ideals that were did well for a time but going back most of the AE has not aged well at all.

Good art ages well bad art does not wrestling[ in the us does not have its Sgt peppers or the wall ] stuf that is truly agless] Like most of the 1983-1995 stuff in Japan is alot of the best shoot style has aged very well and everyy one tries ot do Kings Road now yes even WWE when people say there doing Indie style its KIngs Road us indie style take more from Kings Road and Lucharesu promotion tna it does from new Japan of the years mentioned above

[Shrike02]

If there was an ignore filter, shodate would earn it. I can't read the posts despite whatever validity they may have because they make my eyes hurt.

[Ricky Jackson]

It's a long con troll job, making us all go blind trying to read his posts ☺

[shodate]

It's a long con troll job, making us all go blind trying to read his posts ☺

im not trolling