All Elite Wrestling

[The Thread Killer]

15 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Tony Nese is probably the guy who surprised me the absolute most in AEW from what I thought he was when he came in to how good he actually is. He's really good at doing exactly what the moment demands as opposed to trying to just have a five star match or whatever.

To me, when it comes to Tony Nese it’s not a matter of ability, it’s a matter of booking. When he was in WWE, he was essentially enhancement talent. He has not been booked as much more than that in AEW. When they first announced that he and Josh Woods were going to be a tag team, I was extremely interested in the “Varsity Athletes.” Unfortunately, they never get booked on Dynamite, and they never win any matches, so what was the point? And then on the rare occasions I do see them, they are stuck with Aria Davari, Mark Sterling and this ridiculous “Trustbusters” gimmick. They are essentially the same as The Dark Order. Guys who never ever win, but are shoved down your throat.

[KawadaSmile]

If they are set on having this 2-hour Saturday show, I wonder why - and that is if - they would keep Rampage. 

[Matt D]

Just now, The Thread Killer said:

To me, when it comes to Tony Nese it’s not a matter of ability, it’s a matter of booking. When he was in WWE, he was essentially enhancement talent. He has not been booked as much more than that in AEW. When they first announced that he and Josh Woods were going to be a tag team, I was extremely interested in the “Varsity Athletes.” Unfortunately, they never get booked on Dynamite, and they never win any matches, so what was the point? And then on the rare occasions I do see them, they are stuck with Aria Davari, Mark Sterling and this ridiculous “Trustbusters” gimmick. They are essentially the same as The Dark Order. Guys who never ever win, but are shoved down your throat.

It goes back to people complaining about Swerve losing on Weds. You need guys who can lose. Nese at least does so while trying to work the crowd, fit his stuff into his opponents' with the sort of learned psychology and natural feeling counters I've always really liked, and get actual heat and not just show off. I think it's a big difference to see something like Stu Grayson vs Tony Nese relative to the line up we have ahead of us for next Thursday where 5+ of the matches are enhancement matches. Nese gave Stu a really good win in an entertaining sprint to set up Dutch and Vincent coming out as they lead towards whatever the actual program is. I will say that I struggle a little more with Davari as a singles, but I'm fine with the Trustbusters as Sonny and Slim J are never boring to watch. I do, of course, completely agree with you that the focus and environment of the studio tapings were far superior.

As an aside, I'm excited that we have Coughlin, Claudio, and Woods all circling each other in the same sub promotion, just ridiculously strong guys who can wrestle. I'd be excited for Shibata/Coughlin vs Nese/Woods, for instance. Even though they were the sort of losers that you mention, I loved seeing the Workhorsemen vs Shibata/Coughlin this last week.

[El-P]

Yeah, Tony Neese is actually awesome. He absolutely found his footing and role and delivers everytime, against everyone he's being put against. He's such a pleasure to watch. And I never want to hear he's got no charisma, because he found his own now. He's like the greatest Barry Horowitz ever (as opposed to the greatest Tim Horner ever).

Also, I love everything about The Righteous (I already watched and enjoyed Vincent for a year in IMPACT, and had seen a little bit of them in ROH before). They basically are the Wyatt Family done right, with one member being John Goodman.

[The Thread Killer]

Strongly agree that The Righteous are what the original Wyatt Family could and should have been. Them doing a cult vs. cult feud with The Dark Order in ROH actually does have potential…provided it’s the original Dark Order. Vincent & Dutch vs. Uno & Grayson. If Bateman returns for The Righteous then Dark Order bring in John Silver.

[C.S.]

You've all lost your damn minds.

Don't want Punk back but do want Tony Nese?

Ospreay vs. PAC main eventing Wembley when neither of them (especially PAC) are quarter the star Davey Boy Smith was? 

Okay, I'll at least entertain an argument about Ospreay being 1/2 of that main event - he did well in Japan and has the six-star ratings AEW fans blindly worship - but PAC? Come on...

[The Thread Killer]

PAC is an outstanding talent and he absolutely should be on that show. Not in the Main Event, but I would have no issue with him competing for one of the secondary championships. The show is in England and he’s from England, his being featured on that show is a no brainer.

[C.S.]

I am not exactly a major PAC fan, but I would never, ever suggest that he shouldn't be on the show at all. Of course he should be! Just not in the main event. So, we agree there, @The Thread Killer.

[Matt D]

I’ll spare you guys the fantasy card I had brainstormed over at DVDVR, but I had PAC challenging (and beating) Hobbs for the TNT title on it. 

[Embrodak]

38 minutes ago, C.S. said:

You've all lost your damn minds.

Don't want Punk back but do want Tony Nese?

Ospreay vs. PAC main eventing Wembley when neither of them (especially PAC) are quarter the star Davey Boy Smith was? 

Okay, I'll at least entertain an argument about Ospreay being 1/2 of that main event - he did well in Japan and has the six-star ratings AEW fans blindly worship - but PAC? Come on...

With Punk, it’s mainly that people don’t want the drama. I’m a Punk mark, he was the only consistently watchable part of AEW for me, but I would totally get “We can’t have this guy that half the locker room won’t work with and hates” as a rationale for leaving him out. That said, if TK is like, “I’m paying this guy a million+ per year, of course I’m going to use him if it’s at all feasible”, then these people that would be making a fraction of what they’re making in a TK-less world need to get the fuck over themselves and appreciate that maybe their dream job might have a coworker they don’t like. (And these absolute dullards appropriating abuse language need to shut the hell up.)

[KawadaSmile]

People were actually saying things like "What if The Elite has PTSD or get triggered from sharing the locker room with CM Punk?"

You'd think CM Punk was the most evil person to ever set foot in a wrestling locker room based on how fans - and some media outlets! - are portraying the man.

 

However, I must say that if they book CMFTR vs JAS before booking a feud with The Elite, then they have lost the fucking plot. Fucking Jericho, man...

[Jmare007]

10 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

People were actually saying things like "What if The Elite has PTSD or get triggered from sharing the locker room with CM Punk?"

 

lmao, where?? I need to see that.

[MoS]

4 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

lmao, where?? I need to see that.

 

 

Plus, that Deadpsin article I linked to earlier, which completely perverts the meaning of "gaslighting". To call it misuse would be being generous and euphemistic. 

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, C.S. said:

You've all lost your damn minds.

Don't want Punk back but do want Tony Nese?

I think we mostly all want Punk back from an in ring product.

But that doesn't mean we can't talk about Nese too, especially as a mid-card JTTS in ROH, basically the world's best 1991 Paul Roma. One great thing about AEW is that it produces a lot of wrestling. One great thing about this community is that we've always been interested in talking about not just Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu but also Tenryu's January 1990 one month feud with Isao Takagi.

I could write six paragraphs on Serpentico, easy, and another four on Angelico. I have a ton I could say about Skye Blue or Alex Reynolds/John Silver or Kip Sabian. That's always been part of the fun of it.

[KawadaSmile]

This talk about Tony Nese makes me think of this snippet of a Dolph Ziggler interview I saw today.

When asked about what he was most proud of in his career, he first answered "the money", which while in jest, is something I believe he does enjoy a lot. He then goes on to give a more thoughtful answer, saying how he was proud of being able to be the curtain jerker, to a midcard guy challenging for the IC belt, or even occasionally in the main event, subbing in for an injured colleague.

I'm not really a fan of his, but it is undenieable he is a valuable "solid hand" for any company, and I think Nese falls under that same category. You won't get a top guy out of him - I mean, top guys are by definition hand-picked wrestlers, chances are most wrestlers won't be that - but you can place him in several different places in the card, and they can give you something good. 

He's not there to outshine your main eventer or the guy you want to push (unless he goes full Paul Roma trying to fuck with Alex Wright), but he's there to enhance them. Guys in that role are valuable to any company. They are the rotation players of an NBA team, or the trustworthy bench players of a soccer squad who mostly play 90 minutes during domestic cups. They are there for a reason. 

[sek69]

Stars make the world go round for sure, but all championship teams need the meat-and-potatoes guys that put in the dirty work for little or no fanfare.

[sek69]

17 hours ago, El-P said:

I had not thought about that one. Fénix & Penta aren't AAA talent though, so maybe there's a way around it. But yeah, that kinda sucks, especially since Vikingo really is the only AAA guy they would really want, whereas there is a number of NJPW workers that could mean something for big dream matches. Not to mention the Moné connection which hopefully hapens.

They are signed to AEW, but they are exclusive to AAA in Mexico which makes them off limits for any show with New Japan folks. 

You're correct about Vikingo, but selfishly I'd love to see Komander in a balls-out sprint match doing impossible shit in front of a stadium full of people. 

[Dav'oh]

I don't get Kommander. When he does his wobbly, wonky, shitting himself, rope walks I don't go "Wow!", I go "Why?". His opponent has to wait even longer than usual to catch him, he gains no more momentum than if he ran in the ring (quite considerably less, in fact) and it appears he sports a goatee.

Again: Why?

[sek69]

He does amazing high spots and there's that vibe of "yeah some of his stuff is wonky but he looks like someone who's going to be a star" about him, he's basically Vikingo in the first few years of his career. 

[El-P]

4 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

Again: Why?

Watch the crowd react. Any crowd he's in front of in. That's why.

And to extrapolate on very concrete reasons. Komander is a 24 years old luchador with no lucha ascendance. He's getting booking on big US indies, he was all over the place during Mania week-end. He got on the latest ROH PPV. He's getting on the second biggest pro-wrestling company in the world national TV programs, in big matches (Jay White next week). And he's gonna be in the main event of AAA's Triplemania tomorrow. That's why. He's getting over, he's getting paid, he's getting famous.

So, people having to wait a little bit more (and really, not that much more than your standard lucha spot dive sequence) to catch him really doesn't weigh a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. 

[The Thread Killer]

6 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

I don't get Kommander. When he does his wobbly, wonky, shitting himself, rope walks I don't go "Wow!", I go "Why?". His opponent has to wait even longer than usual to catch him, he gains no more momentum than if he ran in the ring (quite considerably less, in fact) and it appears he sports a goatee.

Again: Why?

I think it pretty much boils down to how much of a fan you are of Lucha as a style, and how much you are willing to suspend disbelief when you watch Pro Wrestling.

I myself am a fan of old school Pro Wrestling and/or the harder hitting striking style, or mat based grappling stuff. I have never been able to really enjoy wrestling that is blatantly cooperative, with guys doing obviously choreographed tumbling routines that involve the opponent having to manoeuvre themselves into a particular position and then just stand or lie there for an extended period of time, waiting for the guy on offense to finally execute the move. That always takes me right out of the match.

I saw that Vikingo/Komander match from the last ROH PPV. I have a buddy who is big time into Lucha, and he went nuts over that match…he said it was actually his favourite match on the whole show. For me, I was never bored during that match (how could you be?) but I can’t honestly say I enjoyed it, either. It’s just not a style I can get into. I certainly respect and admire the amount of skill it takes to do that kind of stuff. 

I have never been much for the “I love this style, so you should too and you’re an idiot if you don’t” attitude. I get why people love Lucha, and I can get why people think guys like Komander and Vikingo are some of the best and most exciting modern examples of that style, but I can’t honestly say I enjoy Komander matches either.

[El-P]

There's also something about Kommander, he's still very green in singles matches despite starting a decade ago (yeah, when he was 12, crazy lucha libre culture). His stuff is easier to plug in when he's in a multi-men clusterfuck of crazy highspots. 

And really now, as much as I love Vikingo's stuff, with all the stuff I've seen from him lately, there's a HUGE difference between the match he had with Omega, and everything else. Guess why... Not to say Vikingo is not great at what he does, but he's very much a modern AAA spectacle guy. What he does is just insane, but if you don't enjoy this style of matches (which yes, often come off like a collection of great, insane spots, and why not really ?), well. That being said, I know by experience that this is the easiest stuff to show non pro-wrestling fans so that they have a blast. In essence, this is also why lucha libre is the most popular, in the true essence of the word, style of pro-wrestling (Arena Mexico becoming a tourist destination being another example).

[Dav'oh]

He's over, he's not over, it makes no difference to how he works, @El-P. And how he works leaves me perplexed, even in the nonsensical world of pro-wrestling and the peculiarities of Lucha. I was being somewhat facetious about the goatee. 

But then, I share @The Thread Killer's old-school tastes. And I don't mind accusations that it's still real to me. In the spirit of which...

Jay White should murder him. Three minutes and four seconds, at the most.

 

 

[Matt D]

Hopefully someone like Kommander working wrestlers who wrestle a bunch of different styles with guys like Dustin, Lynn, and Buck helping out will round him out a bit over time.

Also, re: Ziggler/Nese, I haven't seen any of his stuff for at least five years, but I'd actually say that I was expecting Nese to be a lot MORE like Ziggler. Dolph is a guy who is always going to go out and try to steal the show, no matter if that serves the overall needs of the match/program. Nese is a guy who will focus what he's doing for the sake of the match and isn't afraid to not get in all of his stuff for the sake of what he's trying to accomplish. I was expecting him to be a crossfit workrate guy and he can do that but he's a lot more.

[El-P]

56 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

He's over, he's not over, it makes no difference to how he works

Of course it does. He gets over because of how he works. The hype about Komander was always "the guy who does crazy shit and runs the ropes". If he's you're average luchador, he's not getting over like he does and he's not getting booked like he is.

56 minutes ago, Dav'oh said:

Jay White should murder him. Three minutes and four seconds, at the most.

Of course not. That would be useless for everyone. Jay White is not a "squash a guy in three minute" (hell, that's even the opposite of what he is). And Komander could neither shine nor learn anything from this, plus he's already been established as someone as opposed to a jobber (going toe to toe with Vikingo, who pushed Omega super hard). No one really showcase their abilities. That would make no sense at all. Plus, if you need a jobber, Silas Young is right there (yeah, I'm being sarcastic and did not get that one at all either).