Slasher Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I'm not surprised. The WWE has an annoying habit of taking guys down a few pegs after a major run. I'm just surprised it took two years for them to do that to Jericho, as I figured it'd start after the HBK program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 The Glass Ceiling: 10th anniversary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I'm not surprised. The WWE has an annoying habit of taking guys down a few pegs after a major run. I'm just surprised it took two years for them to do that to Jericho, as I figured it'd start after the HBK program. His major run wasn't really that major from a booking standpoint. Clearly booked as being inferior to Shawn Michaels. Then he fluked into the World title, but almost immediately hot potatoed the title with Batista, before putting over Cena at two straight PPVs and dropping out of the main event picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 I do agree that it's a little odd to see him lose that many loser-leaves matches. His feud with DX has been the main program really on Raw for a while now, though. I mean, you could kind of consider him in the main event mix during that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1004Holds Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 In all seriousness, is Jericho being punished for weight gain or for getting over last year? I remember making a joke at one point that this would happen after he said a few months ago that new talent needs to be put over. Just wait till his book comes out because it's going to get really sad and hilarious then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 Jericho comes across as very, very confident in radio and print interviews -- which is fine, he knows how to carry himself as a star -- but I suspect that his cockiness motivates the writers to have fun with him. Plus, it's HHH. I just wonder what kinds of conversations Michaels and HHH have about the guy. HHH obviously despises him, but Michaels let him get quite a bit of heat on him and worked a six month program in '08, so I don't think he dislikes him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 I think Michaels obviously respects Jericho's ability to make him look good, but like the writers probably doesn't mind joining in with Hunter's fun and games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted January 15, 2010 Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 The way I see it, I wouldn't write off Jericho yet. If he can exact some kind of revenge, he can come out of this looking pretty good. I mean, he's an obnoxious heel who's been getting his as of late, much to the delight of the fans (it seems). Of course, in reality, he'll probably just be moved back to Smackdown and onto something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 While they won't be sending each other christmas cards, Triple H respects Jericho. The thing is, Jericho is bulletproof. He can get over again easily after a bad program. The WWE knows this, so they afford themselves to clown on Jericho a bit for the fans' delight. I wouldn't be surprised if Jericho pitched parts if not all of this storyline. The bromance thing, breaking up, etc is too much of something he'd come up with. Jericho strikes me as a guy who knows his legacy is secure, and he's just having fun poking fun at his own character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herodes Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 The mention of the Williams/Windham Starrcade match in the 24/7 thread got me thinking... I'm a fan of the face v face match that descends into a heel turn by one of the parties after 'miscommunication' but I'm struggling to think of some good examples. One that comes to mind is the Chris Adams v Terry Taylor match from Mid South, also Misterioso v Volador from '94 in AAA that kickstarted their feud...can anyone think of some other good examples to check out? Also any face v heel matches where the heel sees the light during the match and it becomes face v face? It's not an easy story to tell during the course of a match and the only example I can think of right now is the incredible Misterioso v Volador mask match. For 2 guys I never cared for too much their feud was brilliant storytelling in the best lucha biblical sense - friend turns traitor but finally sees the error of his ways too late...in the second fall of a mask match from which there is no escape...so the sinner makes the ultimate sacrifice to gain his redemption and save his brother. Ofcourse the best performer in the match was Blue Panther as Misterio's second, the devil on his shoulder who is the catalyst for the story. Are there any US equivalents I can look out for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 Also any face v heel matches where the heel sees the light during the match and it becomes face v face? ? Jake Roberts vs. Randy Savage from SNME comes to mind. This would've been in 87 or so? They start heel vs. heel, but the crowd basically turns Jake during this match. It's a pretty damn good match too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 They didn't waste any time on who the Face is and who the Heel was: Savage vs Jake On paper the match has issues because of WWF Fans difficulty in figuring out who to root for in Face vs. Face and Heel vs. Heel matches. They smartly get past that in the pre-match and early match. While the eventual layout of the match they work is clearly for Jake to seen as be the face of it and Savage to be the heel, the two don't leave it to the chance choice of the fans. Macho stooges for the boa and hides behind Liz in the pre-match. Once the match starts, he continues to stooge for the now bagged boa, and also is the first to go to the hair pulling. The fans know who to root for, and who is the cowardly champ. This is smart stuff rather than trying to play a "slow burn" and hope that the fans are there with you when it comes time for Savage to lose his grip. There are times where slow burn works. I'm not sure if the WWF in that era would be a good place for it given their fans. It's a bit like Orndorff's turn on Hogan: it was clearly set up for weeks before that. Anyone paying attention was just waiting for Paul to snap. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 Jake was working both heel and face on house shows at that time 1/1/87 = face vs. Savage 1/3/87 = heel vs. Billy Jack 1/9/87 = heel vs. Animal Steele 1/10/87, 1/11/87, 1/19/87 = face vs. Bundy 1/22/87 = heel vs. Kirchner 1/23/87, 1/24/87 = face vs. Orndorff 1/27/87 = Snake Pit featuring guitar shot by Honky taped for 2/22/87 1/29/87 = heel vs. Hogan 1/30/87 = heel vs. Garea 1/31/87 = heel vs. Piper 2/6/87 = heel vs. Tito 2/9/87 = face vs. Kamala 2/12/87 = heel vs. Morales 2/13/87 = heel vs. Animal Steele 2/14/87 = heel vs. Arcidi 2/17/87 = face vs. Savage 2/19/87 = heel vs. Davey 2/20/87, 2/21/87, 2/23/87 = face vs. Bundy 2/24/87 = face vs. Butch 2/25/87 = heel vs. JYD 2/28/87 = heel vs. Hogan which was his last match as a heel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Also any face v heel matches where the heel sees the light during the match and it becomes face v face? ? Jake Roberts vs. Randy Savage from SNME comes to mind. This would've been in 87 or so? They start heel vs. heel, but the crowd basically turns Jake during this match. It's a pretty damn good match too. I'm thinking of a Snuka-backlund match from Philly that may have taken place after the TV showed Albano cheating Snuka out of his money, where Snuka was still a "heel" but the turn was in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 2/28/87 = heel vs. Hogan which was his last match as a heel Is this the one where Jake was cheered heavily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artDDP Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Has Dave compared the Jay Leno-Conan O'Brien dispute to pro wrestling yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 2/28/87 = heel vs. Hogan which was his last match as a heel Is this the one where Jake was cheered heavily? Yes that was the match because the Honky angle had aired on TV the previous weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 So according to Herb the latest person to get their head shaved by CM Punk is Serena Deeb, who just signed a developmental deal back in July. Considering the look WWE wants their women to have, this is a pretty ballsy move on her part. Odds are they'll get tired waiting for her hair to grow back and endeavor her in a few months for looking too butch for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 This is great. Supposedly Awesome Kong beat up Bubba TLS. -- For whatever it's worth, several people in TNA seem to believe that the Awesome Kong beating of Bubba the Love Sponge was legit, and that it was brutal. Based on history, my trust in his regime is approximately zero, but I guess we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 So according to Herb the latest person to get their head shaved by CM Punk is Serena Deeb, who just signed a developmental deal back in July. Considering the look WWE wants their women to have, this is a pretty ballsy move on her part. Odds are they'll get tired waiting for her hair to grow back and endeavor her in a few months for looking too butch for them. Well she's getting a pretty good push in FCW and even defeated Gail Kim. Wouldn't be shocked if they moved her to smackdown permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Except now she's presumably a bald chick working for a company that wants all their females to be long haired Barbie Clones (unless ethnicity prevents it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NitroFan Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Wait, CM Punk shaves people bald? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Wait, CM Punk shaves people bald? Yes, he pulls people (plants) from the crowd and gets them to convert to being Straight Edge. He seals the deal by shaving their head. This supposedly is going to lead to a hair vs mask match vs Rey at Wrestlemania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 Jake was working both heel and face on house shows at that time I know. I've written about this phase of his in the past. It was an odd tweener phase where he worked both ways. Going backwards: His blow off with Ricky was the 10/04/86 SNME snake pit match (taped 09/13/86). As far as I can tell, their feud didn't have any matches after that aired. He moved into an attempted feud with JYD that launched on the 10/19/86 Wrestling Challenge, and started going around the horn a bit before that. The feud never really came to much. The tweener phase looks to have started around here: South Bend, IN - Athletic & Convocation Center - October 22, 1986 WWF IC Champion Randy Savage fought Jake Roberts to a no contest Milwaukee, WI - Mecca - October 23, 1986 WWF IC Champion Randy Savage fought Jake Roberts to a double disqualification Not entirely sure where they pulled those matches out of the hat. I don't see JYD working those days, so it's *possible* that Jake was a "sub" in Savage vs JYD match as there were some occassional JYD-Savage matches in those months. 10/16/86 is an example. Kansas City, MO - Municipal Auditorium - November 3, 1986 (1,800) WWF IC Champion Randy Savage fought Jake Roberts to a double disqualification That one is also strange as Jake faced JYD the day before and after, but JYD-Harley was on that 11/03/86 card. The Heel-Heel match where Jake was clearly the face: Los Angeles, CA - Sports Arena - November 15, 1986 (matinee) (16,000; sell out) Saturday Night's Main Event #8 - 11/29/86 on NBC (9.7) WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) fought Jake Roberts to a double disqualification at around the 9:30 mark after both men pushed referee Dave Hebner out of the way; after the contest, Roberts scared Savage from the ring with Damien after Savage tried to get at him with a chair; Roberts was heavily cheered over Savage during the match (Best of Saturday Night's Main Event) And the balance of the known Jake matches vs Heels for 1986: Omaha, NE - Civic Auditorium - November 22, 1986 King Harley Race fought Jake Roberts to a double count-out Salisbury, MD - Wicomico Youth & Civic Center - November 29, 1986 (matinee) Jake Roberts pinned Hercules Kansas City, MO - Municipal Auditorium - November 29, 1986 (1,200) Jake Roberts vs. King Harley Race Chicago, IL - Rosemont Horizon - November 30, 1986 (4,500) WWF IC Champion Randy Savage fought Jake Roberts to a double disqualification Fresno, CA - Selland Arena - December 4, 1986 WWF IC Champion Randy Savage defeated Jake Roberts (sub. for Roddy Piper) via disqualification They were feeling their way around with it. One does get the sense that they wanted to get Hogan a taste of the Jake Apple by beating Jake before Snake went face. But it also seemed that they knew they wanted him to eventually go face around this time. I think if more of these Heel-Heel matches were available, we'd likely see the same layout that Jake worked agaisnt Randy on SNME: pre-match and early match spots to make it clear that Jake was the face *in the match* and the other guy was the stooging heel. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 20, 2010 Report Share Posted January 20, 2010 I'm thinking of a Snuka-backlund match from Philly that may have taken place after the TV showed Albano cheating Snuka out of his money, where Snuka was still a "heel" but the turn was in progress. Bob-Snuka in Philly... First match: Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - July 31, 1982 WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) fought Jimmy Snuka to a double disqualification at 21:06 when Capt. Lou Albano, who Snuka brought ringside early in the contest, interfered as Backlund had the Crossface Chicken Wing applied, with a brawl ensuing between Backlund & Skaaland against Snuka & Albano, and several other wrestlers, including Salvatore Bellomo and the Demons, having to come out to pull Backlund and Snuka apart Lou was still with Snuka at the 08/30/82 MSG card where he faced Pedro. Second match & blow off: Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - September 18, 1982 (9,464) WWF World Champion Bob Backlund (w/ Arnold Skaaland) pinned Jimmy Snuka at 21:33 by reversing a piledriver attempt into a backdrop and falling backwards for the pin, even though Snuka's foot was outside the ring during the cover; after the bout, Backlund offered his hand to Snuka to shake, which Snuka did; moments later, Snuka also shook the hands of Skaaland and the referee before Backlund gave him his personal towel, which read "WWF Champion"; SD Jones was the guest referee for the bout It would appear they had a 100% notion to turn Jimmy at that point. But I don't see any matches of him against a heel until later. Snuka and Albano were on the 10/09/82 Championship Wrestling in Buddy Rogers' Corner. That *might* have been where they shot the angle of Lou cheating Snuka out of his cash. His feud with Lou didn't seem to start until mid-November, and he was pretty clearly working as the face against heels in all his matches after that. Jimmy worked a fair amount with All Japan in 1982, so the gaps may be while he was on tour over there. I need to watch those Philly matches at some point. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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