Comments that don't warrant a thread

[tigerpride]

Watching the 97 Nitros, Scott Hall is guilty of this, since he's a heel who basically acts like someone who the crowd should cheer. And the only one who seems to stand up to the nWo is Larry Zybysko!

[Johnny Sorrow]

I went to the final Philly WCW show at the Civic Center that was headlined by Sting/ Giant and Savage/ Flair with Sammartino as guest ref and the place was nowhere near sold out. And that's Philly.

[kjh]

I mentioned April of 98 to be the end of the NWO angle because it was the end of the WCW-NWO feud. When Meltzer talks about why the NWO was bad, he says its because the NWO was so dominant it made WCW look bad. He's not saying the NWO was bad because of the Hollywood-Wolfpac feud. He's saying that that the original concept of an invasion angle was ultimately bad for the company. Even if you stretch the NWO angle out to November of 98, the company was still hugely succesful then. TV ratings were still big and they were drawing insane gates. Starcade 98 was the 3rd biggest WCW PPV ever. The company really tanked when Nash got the book.

I think Dave's argument would be that the seeds of the collapse were already sown by April of 98 and the only thing that stalled the company's collapse was them lucking into the Goldberg phenomenon before inevitably screwing that up too. To blame Nash's booking solely for tanking the company ignores the fact that the reason he got the job in the first place was that the previous booking team were burnt out, had no fresh ideas and had been doing a horrible job for some time. Of course, the company was technically not unsalvageable at that point, but it was like a runaway train heading for a crash. That the crash was so bad was due to all the bad decisions they made in a panic as things started to go pear shaped.

[Loss]

Kev summed up the nWo situation nicely, but I wouldn't say the nWo was responsible for WCW going out of business... or even partially responsible. The booking of the nWo did lead to the downturn in business, but not the company going out of business.

 

Things that really led to WCW going out of business were Ted Turner losing his say as far as what was going on with WCW (the company lost money most of the years prior to Ted's businesses becoming part of Time Warner, but Turner insisted WCW keep going) and Jamie Kellner deciding there would be no more wrestling on TBS or TNT.

 

There were things that were booked that cost WCW a lot of money and further fueled its downturn, but ultimately, it was when the person willing to keep pumping money into it lost his say, combined with somebody deciding not to keep the time slots for WCW, led to the demise.

I tend to think these two things go hand in hand. Yes, WCW ended up losing TV because of the decision of a TV executive, but that's like blaming the bullet instead of the person who pulled the trigger. Would that decision have been made if WCW was still doing a $55 million annual profit and still drawing really high ratings at the end? I just can't see them pulling the plug if WCW had still been successful. And WCW was no longer successful for many reasons, some of which had to do with them putting out pretty crappy TV and some of which had nothing to do with that. But I've always thought just shortening it to Jamie Kellner really oversimplifies what happened.

 

WCW did lose money pre-Bischoff, but the "creative bookkeeping" mentioned earlier in this thread, had it happened before it did, would have resulted in WCW turning a profit every year they were in existence until 1999.

 

I consider the split of the NWO into the Wolfpac and Hollywood and whatever else factions to be the end of the feud. They still used the NWO names but the idea of the WCW-NWO feud that was the focus of the company for the previous 20 months was over.

 

It's just crazy to me for Dave to marginalize the angle like that. Like WCW was this healthy and profitable company in May of 96 that got a short-term spike in business but was then shortly done in by the negative effects of the NWO angle. They went from a loss leader to a company with something like an $80 million dollar profit in 1998. They went from running small buildings in the Southeast to sellout streaks in NY and Chicago and huge dome shows for mere TV tapings. TV ratings were in the upper 4's. It's one of the most successful angles in American pro wrestling history. I hate what Nash and Hogan did to the company as much as any other self-respecting internet fan, but you have to put that aside and give credit where it's due. Dave seems to act like WCW would have been in better shape if the NWO angle never happened. The NWO angle was the best thing that could have ever happened. Bischoff just needed to maintain some control once it ran its course.

The NWO was obviously a huge part of the success, but I tend to think Nitro was a bigger part of the success. To me, the boom started when Nitro started. Even prior to the NWO, there were upswings in both companies. WWF house show business when they switched from Diesel to Bret on top was really strong, they had their first Madison Square Garden sellout in years, and the Flair/Savage feud, while not as successful as the NWO, did get the ball rolling. When WCW started airing television on Monday nights, the total wrestling audience immediately expanded, to a point where when RAW ran unopposed a week after Wrestlemania XII, they drew a 4.7 rating. This is pre-NWO with just Shawn Michaels on top against Diesel. The main event of that show, in fact, was Michaels against announcer Jerry Lawler. First, they would kill for that number now, and second, it just shows how much having two competing shows in the same time slot on different channels added to the total wrestling audience, because RAW wasn't drawing ratings anywhere near that prior to Nitro starting. WCW had positioned themselves in a way prior to the NWO where they were able to get the maximum benefit out of the angle. Their production values had surpassed those of the WWF by the end of 1995, they had the better roster, they had the better television show and there were sparks of good booking, they were willing to spend money to sign away stars. Not everything they tried worked in '95, for example, but '95-'96 angles like putting the belt on Flair a 12th time over Sting and Luger, doing a PPV built around interpromotional matches with New Japan, experimenting with the idea of Hulk Hogan on the dark side, signing Luger away, etc. were tactics of a company willing to take risks, which wasn't happening at all in the WWF at that point. I say this not to take anything away from the NWO, but that angle would not have worked nearly as well in a different climate, i.e. without Nitro. Imagine trying to get the NWO over with just WCW Saturday Night and syndication from Disney tapings. It just wouldn't have happened.

 

I mean, I guess you can kind of blame it on the NWO if you do consider it to last until early 99. You can blame Nash beating Goldberg on the Wolfpac, and Nash laying down for Hogan on NWO Hollywood, and all the rest of the mistakes they made. What really killed their revenue streams was the egos and selfish politics backstage and Bischoff's total lack of control.

1986 Jim Crockett booking with 1996 level exposure would have been impossible for the WWF to counter. I think back to that time period and consider how well they did as a national promotion with concept shows like the Great American Bash in stadiums, and how if they had lobbied for and received two hours of live, primetime TV every Monday night to compete with Prime Time Wrestling and were doing marquee matches on top, the war would have been much more competitive.

 

This eventually rounds back around to Bob Morris's original point about television. WCW had many clueless people, but they were a company run by people who definitely knew television inside and out, which I think is what turned them around. Counterprogramming minute-by-minute, starting three minutes early, always running over to bump the overall rating. WCW couldn't compete with the WWF as an arena company or PPV company, but when they re-defined what it meant to be #1 (ratings), they had so many resources at their disposal that it played perfectly to their strengths.

 

The NWO was the great angle they needed to really shove them over the top, but I still think they would have been neck and neck without it because Nitro was so well-conceived.

[Bob Morris]

Kev summed up the nWo situation nicely, but I wouldn't say the nWo was responsible for WCW going out of business... or even partially responsible. The booking of the nWo did lead to the downturn in business, but not the company going out of business.

 

Things that really led to WCW going out of business were Ted Turner losing his say as far as what was going on with WCW (the company lost money most of the years prior to Ted's businesses becoming part of Time Warner, but Turner insisted WCW keep going) and Jamie Kellner deciding there would be no more wrestling on TBS or TNT.

 

There were things that were booked that cost WCW a lot of money and further fueled its downturn, but ultimately, it was when the person willing to keep pumping money into it lost his say, combined with somebody deciding not to keep the time slots for WCW, led to the demise.

I tend to think these two things go hand in hand. Yes, WCW ended up losing TV because of the decision of a TV executive, but that's like blaming the bullet instead of the person who pulled the trigger. Would that decision have been made if WCW was still doing a $55 million annual profit and still drawing really high ratings at the end? I just can't see them pulling the plug if WCW had still been successful. And WCW was no longer successful for many reasons, some of which had to do with them putting out pretty crappy TV and some of which had nothing to do with that. But I've always thought just shortening it to Jamie Kellner really oversimplifies what happened.

 

WCW did lose money pre-Bischoff, but the "creative bookkeeping" mentioned earlier in this thread, had it happened before it did, would have resulted in WCW turning a profit every year they were in existence until 1999.

 

My post did not just blame Kellner, but also Ted Turner losing say in WCW's existence or future. Had Turner never been so sentimental to keep wrestling on his networks, it's not just that WCW would have likely been shut down much earlier in its existence, but that Turner would not have bought out Crockett in the first place and Crockett would have ended up filing for bankruptcy just as Verne Gagne did when AWA closed up shop.

 

Sure, Kellner likely would have been overruled if WCW had been successful, but my point is, when WCW was not successful before, it was Turner who kept it going because he wanted to keep putting money into it.

 

That's was my point more than anything... you need money and TV to truly have a successful promotion. You can have booking that people like, but without money to further fuel things or a TV slot to get exposure, you can only do so much, and it's more likely you'll end up losing money if you try to do more.

[kjh]

Not everything they tried worked in '95, for example, but '95-'96 angles like putting the belt on Flair a 12th time over Sting and Luger, doing a PPV built around interpromotional matches with New Japan, experimenting with the idea of Hulk Hogan on the dark side, signing Luger away, etc. were tactics of a company willing to take risks, which wasn't happening at all in the WWF at that point.

I don't think that's quite fair, as the Monday Night Wars quickly spurred the WWF to start experimenting with a more hardcore and risque product too, though it wasn't as effective as Vince was clearly in two minds over whether to change directions or stay with the safe conservative formula that by and large had worked for more than a decade. At the same time WCW was experimenting with the tactics you mentioned we have Bret Hart crashing through tables and blading on WWF PPVs (I'm skeptical about Bret's claim that the blading in his match with Bulldog wasn't booked by Vince, but even if it wasn't they played up the blood big the next night on TV and even showed the climax of the match uncensored a few weeks later on free TV), Shawn Michaels collapsing in the ring on Raw, Goldust hitting on Razor Ramon leading to a vicious out of the ring assault by an irate Ramon, Diesel swearing and flipping the bird on PPV, Vader assaulting aging WWF President Gorilla Monsoon and Mick Foley debuting as a disfigured freak who had been abused by his mother as a child. This wasn't a company willing to take risks?

[Loss]

Joey Styles punched out JBL? That's amazing.

[Resident Evil]

Joey Styles punched out JBL? That's amazing.

When?

 

 

About the blood in Bret vs Bulldog. I've been cut from pieces broken glass several times during my life. It's amazing how easy it is to get cut by it even when you think the glass is all gone.

[Bix]

Bret said in his book that he bladed but the athletic commission doctor thought it was from hitting the stairs.

[Death From Above]

The Styles/JBL thing, as seen on PWInsider.com:

 

One of the most newsworthy events that transpired on World Wrestling Entertainment's tour of Iraq last week took place nowhere near any of the cameras that were filming the tour. I was stunned at hearing the following story over the weekend and initially chalked it up to being just an urban legend, but as it turns out, it was completely accurate.

 

Retired WWE announcer (and current WWE.com personality) Joey Styles punched out former WWE champion JBL in Iraq during an altercation between the two, busting JBL open under the eye.

 

No, that is not a typo.

 

As the story was initially explained to me (and all versions I've heard since have matched the original report I was conveyed), JBL made Styles something of a target because it was Styles' first tour of Iraq for the company and was hazing the former ECW announcer.

 

I was told JBL was trying to bully Styles with a lot of condescending comments and actions, including allegedly spilling a drink on Styles on purpose. JBL was more or less pulling a lot of the shenanigans that a lot of of the performers in the company can't stand but deal with since he has the political stroke of being a tenured veteran.

 

Several days into the tour, JBL (who by all accounts, had been drinking) did something that caused Styles to physically retaliate in defense. A number of wrestlers stepped between them and held the two apart. When JBL broke free, he went towards Styles, who "nailed him perfectly with a pretty good shot" according to one witness, laying JBL out, busting him open and blackening his eye.

 

There were no further incidents between the two on the tour after that.

 

There were a number of performers who pointed out to me that the story was something of karma coming back to bite JBL in the rear because his antics had caused Smackdown talent Palmer Cannon to quit the company during a European tour (and Cannon wasn't the only victim of JBL's hazing over the years) as well as the famous 2005 ECW One Night Stand beating of the Blue Meanie during the PPV closing brawl inside the ring.

 

At last night's Raw in Philadelphia, the story was the talk of the day among wrestlers, who were amazed by the incident. I was also told JBL was acting completely subdued at the taping, something absolutely out of character for him, as he knew the story was making the rounds. Styles, meanwhile, was trying to downplay the incident to those who brought it up to him at Raw.

 

It was considered doubly embarrassing for JBL among the wrestlers since he was so involved with setting up the Iraq tours.

 

In a strange way, some theorized the incident would get Styles over with Vince McMahon because it showed his "toughness" and could pave the way for his return to TV. I have no idea whether Styles' cameo last night was part of any direct result of the "Iraq Punchout", as it was termed to me.

I don't know if Joey Styles one punch taking out Bradshaw is the funniest story of the year, but I'm really willing to entertain other candidates for my personal amusement.

[floyd]

- The following are the top 10 purchased PPVs in North America for 2008:

 

 

1. Boxing: Oscar De La Hoya vs. Manny Pacquiao, Dec. 6, (1,250,000)

2. UFC: Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Couture, Nov. 15, (1,010,000)

3. WWE WrestleMania : Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Paul "Big Show" Wight, March 30, (670,000)

4. UFC: Georges St. Pierre vs. Jon Fitch/Lesnar vs. Heath Herring, Aug. 9, (625,000)

5. UFC: Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, Feb. 2, (600,000)

6. UFC: Quinton Jackson vs. Forrest Griffin, July 5, (540,000)

7. UFC: St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra, April 19, (530,000)

8. Boxing: Felix Trinidad vs. Roy Jones Jr., Jan. 19, (500,000)

9. UFC: Chuck Liddell vs. Rashad Evans, Sept. 6, (480,000)

10. UFC: B.J. Penn vs. Sean Sherk/Tito Ortiz vs. Lyoto Machida, May 24, (475,000)

 

Credit: PWInsider.com

[kjh]

You have to love Dave Scherer not crediting where the information really came from. Why, of course, Dave Meltzer of Yahoo! Sports. See, this article here: Lesnar blasts UFC toward record year.

[sek69]

The Styles/JBL thing, as seen on PWInsider.com:

 

One of the most newsworthy events that transpired on World Wrestling Entertainment's tour of Iraq last week took place nowhere near any of the cameras that were filming the tour. I was stunned at hearing the following story over the weekend and initially chalked it up to being just an urban legend, but as it turns out, it was completely accurate.

 

Retired WWE announcer (and current WWE.com personality) Joey Styles punched out former WWE champion JBL in Iraq during an altercation between the two, busting JBL open under the eye.

 

No, that is not a typo.

 

As the story was initially explained to me (and all versions I've heard since have matched the original report I was conveyed), JBL made Styles something of a target because it was Styles' first tour of Iraq for the company and was hazing the former ECW announcer.

 

I was told JBL was trying to bully Styles with a lot of condescending comments and actions, including allegedly spilling a drink on Styles on purpose. JBL was more or less pulling a lot of the shenanigans that a lot of of the performers in the company can't stand but deal with since he has the political stroke of being a tenured veteran.

 

Several days into the tour, JBL (who by all accounts, had been drinking) did something that caused Styles to physically retaliate in defense. A number of wrestlers stepped between them and held the two apart. When JBL broke free, he went towards Styles, who "nailed him perfectly with a pretty good shot" according to one witness, laying JBL out, busting him open and blackening his eye.

 

There were no further incidents between the two on the tour after that.

 

There were a number of performers who pointed out to me that the story was something of karma coming back to bite JBL in the rear because his antics had caused Smackdown talent Palmer Cannon to quit the company during a European tour (and Cannon wasn't the only victim of JBL's hazing over the years) as well as the famous 2005 ECW One Night Stand beating of the Blue Meanie during the PPV closing brawl inside the ring.

 

At last night's Raw in Philadelphia, the story was the talk of the day among wrestlers, who were amazed by the incident. I was also told JBL was acting completely subdued at the taping, something absolutely out of character for him, as he knew the story was making the rounds. Styles, meanwhile, was trying to downplay the incident to those who brought it up to him at Raw.

 

It was considered doubly embarrassing for JBL among the wrestlers since he was so involved with setting up the Iraq tours.

 

In a strange way, some theorized the incident would get Styles over with Vince McMahon because it showed his "toughness" and could pave the way for his return to TV. I have no idea whether Styles' cameo last night was part of any direct result of the "Iraq Punchout", as it was termed to me .

I don't know if Joey Styles one punch taking out Bradshaw is the funniest story of the year, but I'm really willing to entertain other candidates for my personal amusement.

 

 

Oh man, someone needs to make a Punch-Out pic with Joey as Little Mac and JBL as Bald Bull.

[Al]

Been done.

 

[Indikator]

From the old "Upper Midwest Newsletter No.108 (3/1)" during the name association game

 

"t) Derrick Dukes ... Many writers called him the "Black Owen Hart." A

creative guy who deserves better from wrestling. He came to Minnesota from

Ohio with about $80 and a dream to go to Verne Gagne's camp. When he realized

Verne may not appreciate racial diversity he stumbled across Rick Steiner,

who referred him to Eddie."

 

Whoa Nelly.

[Bix]

I knew that Verne wasn't a fan of the blacks.

 

I had no idea that anyone thought Derrick Dukes was a great worker worthy of being called "the black Owen Hart."

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Ah, so Dukes was the guy who threw that boxing match. I knew he was in the PWI Almanac's history section for something.

[tomk]

George Mason develops first urine test for HGH.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/2008-12-16-...-hgh-test_N.htm

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Lucky for WWE it won't be approved for years, and even then it'll probably be years after that before WWE "is convinced of the accuracy and dependability" of the test.

[tomk]

Unless there is a big death around the time its approved that would add pressure, I doubt it would be added to the test of prohiited substances anyway.

[Death From Above]

So, this spawned from a comment Loss made in the "what are you expecting in 2008" thread but it doesn't really fit there. Seems better suited to comments that don't warrant a thread so I'll post it here:

 

My fandom is at an all-time low, as I still haven't really been able to wash away the stench of the Benoit stuff, and I'm not sure what WWE can really do to rectify that.

In a sense this touches on why I passed on the '80's Memphis set after really enjoying the Mid-South one. I get why the entire Benoit thing ruined a lot for a lot of people, though I'm not one of them per se (mainly because by then I was not paying any more attention to the in ring product in this business than I am now). But I have a really hard time getting into anything focussed around everyone's current favourite child abuser, Jerry Lawler. I just can't enjoy his work, because the fact that (I'm sure a great deal of it) is "great wrestling" doesn't get me past the fact that as a human being he grades as a failure. I'm sure he's a fine wrestler, I'm just not sure I really care. I've always been more interested in "what's good" than I am in "what's new" so the '80's project as a whole is something I view as interesting. I just don't want to watch a set built around Lawler, no matter how good his punches look.

 

To each their own reason to be disgusted with the wrestling business, I guess. It's not like there's any shortage of material to pick from. That was just mine for the past year.

 

I'm not suggesting "Lawler is the worst person in wrestling" or anything of the sort. Those sort of sweeping moral judgements from random people on the interwebz are stupid and childish. He's just one of the people that, personally, bothers me for reasons that have nothing to do with his in ring career. Are there 100 other guys you could make the same case for? Probably more than that. Okay, easily more than that. I could probably name 100 workers off the top of my head easily that have personal problems I'd find "morally objectionable" but have watched without caring. But anyway, I find Lawler a lot creepier than most people I guess, and I figure I'm entitled to find him creepy if I want to. I'm sure it's a fine set that a lot of people are enjoying, and to each their own in the end.

[Phil Schneider]

The girl Lawler was accused of raping recanted her story, so calling him a child molester seems a little out of bounds

[Resident Evil]

I wouldn't let him around the younger members of my family especially after some of the comments he's made. Lawler certainly doens't help his own reputation with the way he acts.

 

Lawler from the first day I ever saw him gives off this fake aura with his body language and personality. I wouldn't trust him for a second. I would like to be proven wrong and I don't mean to be mean because that's not way I am but I'm very skeptical when it comes to Lawler

[Phil Schneider]

I don't know how to respond to that. Feels to me like giving you the willies would be an endorsement for a persons character, not a negative.

[Resident Evil]

I don't know how to respond to that. Feels to me like giving you the willies would be an endorsement for a persons character, not a negative.

I don't hate anyone in life but if there's anything I hate it's people who go after children.