sek69 Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Just because MMA is promoted doesn't mean it's the same as pro wrestling. Boxing has been promoted just as much as wrestling (and at certain times better than wrestling promoters were doing) and no one ever made the argument that boxing and wrestling are the same thing. Concerts are promoted as well, no one says concerts are the same as pro wrestling. Anything that has tickets to sell has some form of promotion behind it, it doesn't mean the events being promoted have any connection between them, If people made the argument that MMA=boxing, that would be much closer comparison. Both of those sports drum up interest in fights and personalities, but wrestling promoters have a very obvious advantage since they are the ones who determine the winners and losers. Since MMA and boxing promoters don't have that luxury (or they shouldn't, at least), the difference is sometimes subtle but very distinct. MMA fighters aren't manipulated into situations where they want to fight each other, they fight each other to contend for or to win championships. You're not going to see a main event booked on a MMA PPV because Brock Leasnar smashed a coconut on someone's head or because Fedor clotheslined someone with a chain and draped a Russian flag over him. If you really want to make a comparison, I'd buy that today's MMA is a real combat version of wrestling say, in the 1960s, when it more resembled a "real sport". The day they start running angles on a MMA PPV I'll start buying into the MMA=wrestling meme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Just because MMA is promoted doesn't mean it's the same as pro wrestling. Boxing has been promoted just as much as wrestling (and at certain times better than wrestling promoters were doing) and no one ever made the argument that boxing and wrestling are the same thing. Meltzer and Heyman have, actually. And Cornette might agree since it fits with his quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Saying pro wrestling and MMA and boxing are all the same is a bit like saying ducks, swans and geese are all the same. Sure, they share some common DNA, but they're still clearly different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Anything that has tickets to sell has some form of promotion behind it, it doesn't mean the events being promoted have any connection between them. They're all types of promoting, which is why Vince gets delusions of grandeur about branching out into other types of promoting. What Dave and his buddies are saying is that from a business point of view MMA=pro-wrestling, only real. I'm not sure if Dave really believes that MMA and pro-wrestling are the same thing in terms of content, I just think he's big on the business parallels. People who find that annoying tend to not be that interested in MMA and think Dave spends too much time covering it in the WON, but Dave's a guy who finds comparisons between wrestling and Roller Derby. You can see where Dave is coming from on the whole MMA thing, though obviously it's driven by the fact that he's a big MMA fan. It's possible to make connections between Vince and Don King, Vince and P.T. Barnum, etc., yet when people compare wrestling promoting to something else everyone gets a little fidgety as though it's not possible (unless it's porn or something of lower worth.) If you ask me it legitimises MMA too much as a sport. MMA has yet to have much of a global reach outside of the internet and if anything is just as hung up about what it promotes as wrestling. Vince didn't want to promote rasslin' and tried carving out his own niche in the promoting business. MMA has tried moving away from its barbaric image to present itself as a legit sport. If people made the argument that MMA=boxing, that would be much closer comparison. Both of those sports drum up interest in fights and personalities, but wrestling promoters have a very obvious advantage since they are the ones who determine the winners and losers. Since MMA and boxing promoters don't have that luxury (or they shouldn't, at least), the difference is sometimes subtle but very distinct. Nevertheless, matchmaking (booking) occurs and is carefully controlled. The idea is to draw a gate and sell PPVs. It's the same basic idea. If a result doesn't go according to plan, they try to make money out of whoever wins. Booking plans change at the drop of a hat in wrestling anyway. It's obviously a distinct difference but the method of making money is the same. MMA fighters aren't manipulated into situations where they want to fight each other, they fight each other to contend for or to win championships. You're not going to see a main event booked on a MMA PPV because Brock Leasnar smashed a coconut on someone's head or because Fedor clotheslined someone with a chain and draped a Russian flag over him. If you really want to make a comparison, I'd buy that today's MMA is a real combat version of wrestling say, in the 1960s, when it more resembled a "real sport". The day they start running angles on a MMA PPV I'll start buying into the MMA=wrestling meme. Well, I think PRIDE came pretty close to having angles at times. They definitely had feuds and promos. On the other hand, rivalries, whether they're real or played up by the company, were around long before pro-wrestling. I don't think the content is the same, I just think they're similar types of promoting. In Japan, I think it was a complete offshoot and they couldn't help do works. In the US, I think it's managed to stand on its own two feet. But until it becomes a recognised sport, I think it's firmly in the same category as wrestling. If WWE were to die and UFC never became a mainstream sport, I think it would essentially be the new pro-wrestling and provide Dave with his livelihood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Saying pro wrestling and MMA and boxing are all the same is a bit like saying ducks, swans and geese are all the same. Sure, they share some common DNA, but they're still clearly different. Still, you can't deny that they're all birds. They're simply different types of birds. What's the one thing that old-timers always harp on about? Money. It's always about money, money, money. The thing most wrestlers are proudest of is the gates they drew and the thing that makes them the most bitter is that they didn't make any money for themselves. Everything else is secondary. Likewise, fighters are in MMA for a payday. I doubt many of them would do it as an amateur sport. Pro-wrestling and MMA is business first, everything else second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 People who find that annoying tend to not be that interested in MMA and think Dave spends too much time covering it in the WON, but Dave's a guy who finds comparisons between wrestling and Roller Derby. You act like wrestling and Roller Derby have nothing in common when in actual fact they have much more in common with pro wrestling than MMA does. Still, you can't deny that they're all birds. They're simply different types of birds. What's the one thing that old-timers always harp on about? Money. It's always about money, money, money. The thing most wrestlers are proudest of is the gates they drew and the thing that makes them the most bitter is that they didn't make any money for themselves. Everything else is secondary. Likewise, fighters are in MMA for a payday. I doubt many of them would do it as an amateur sport. Pro-wrestling and MMA is business first, everything else second. I was being very generous in my analogy by making them all different types of bird. Would you like to argue that we're both the same as horses, after all we're just different types of mammals? On your second point, many MMA fighters are in the game for the love of legitimate competition and the sport in general. If it was all about money, why, for example, did Rashad Evans refuse to fight Randy Couture and wanted to fight Thiago Silva instead, when the former is a much more marketable fight? Why does Mike Brown complain about being booed? The stuff about amateur sport is silly, when MMA dojos are springing up all over the place and quickly overtaking the number of boxing gyms. I think if it were to become an Olympic sanctioned sport, you'd find a lot of young athletes who are currently amateur wrestlers or boxers would become amateur MMA fighters instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 You act like wrestling and Roller Derby have nothing in common when in actual fact they have much more in common with pro wrestling than MMA does. I'm just saying that Dave's a guy who likes joining the dots between wrestling and other types of promoting. I doubt anyone else is as interested in Roller Derby as Dave is, it's just one of his quirks. Most people act like Dave & Co. saying MMA=pro-wrestling is trying to legitimise pro-wrestling in some fashion, but I don't see how Cornette saying MMA is doing a better job of promoting itself than pro-wrestling speaks well of the pro-wrestling business. Unless people think pro-wrestling carnies are taking credit for MMA's success. Carnies know how to sell a fight, or at least they think they do, and the way I read it, Cornette is saying that MMA is doing a better job of selling fights than wrestling is, which is pretty much the case. MMA has eaten in to a share of the WWE's market that it probably wouldn't have done if the WWE had compelling characters like The Rock or Austin. However successful MMA is, and however many buys it's doing, people are watching the shows on name value and it doesn't have a hell of a lot to do with the actual fighting. Not when it comes to the casual fan. I was being very generous in my analogy by making them all different types of bird. Would you like to argue that we're both the same as horses, after all we're just different types of mammals? I can accept that we're all mammals. If you wanna turn it into a MMA/wrestling analogy, I'd say apes are to humans what MMA is to pro-wrestling. On your second point, many MMA fighters are in the game for the love of legitimate competition and the sport in general. If it was all about money, why, for example, did Rashad Evans refuse to fight Randy Couture and wanted to fight Thiago Silva instead, when the former is a much more marketable fight? Why does Mike Brown complain about being booed? Wasn't the fight supposed to be Evans/Jackson? I'm no expert but Evans wants to position himself as a light heavyweight title contender and didn't think the fight would help him move up the rankings. Plus it was on short notice in England. Mike Brown doesn't like getting boo'ed? Is that supposed to be the antithesis of a pro-wrestling heel or something? I'm sure that a lot of fighters have motives other than money, but they're pro-athletes and pro-athletes care about money. The stuff about amateur sport is silly, when MMA dojos are springing up all over the place and quickly overtaking the number of boxing gyms. I think if it were to become an Olympic sanctioned sport, you'd find a lot of young athletes who are currently amateur wrestlers or boxers would become amateur MMA fighters instead. How is that different from the thousands of other martial arts dojos around, many of which are Olympic sanctioned sports? There's a difference between training and working out at a MMA dojo and entering the world of professional MMA. It's never existed in an amateur sense apart from the various disciplines that make up the mixed element of it. Can't see it ever making its way into the Olympics either. My argument isn't that fighters don't take it seriously. Most of them live and breathe it. My argument is that in trying to differentiate it from pro-wrestling people are legitimising it too much. It's still a developing sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I can accept the analogy in terms of stating since both are promoted there are some common traits, but Dave and the people who parrot him go as far as saying the product is basically the same except for the work/shoot stuff. Dave is always talking about fighters (boxers too, he does it with Floyd Mayweather) being heels and cutting promos. Again, it's a business, yes. They sell tickets, yes. So do many other forms of sports and entertainment and that does not make them similar in any way to each other. It's to the point now that anyone who believes MMA=wrestling almost has to be willfully ignorant or someone in the wrestling business who wants to latch on to something that has the mainstream popularity pro wrestling always craves for and never gets. Also, I don't believe OJ would actually resort to pulling out Pride as an example of MMA running angles. Japanese MMA has always been alleged to not be on the up and up at worst (how many fights over there have been alleged to be works or at least had guys cooperating?) and at best they book freakshow/one sided bouts that clearly favor someone they want to win. Japanese MMA is clearly more similar to pro wrestling due to how it evolved in that country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Oh boy. http://lh5.ggpht.com/carlos57775/SCobc6EL_hI/AAAAAAAABys/RG0y66Z3ZDY/s288/Don John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 "My momma always said, 'Everything in life is like pro wrestling.'" Hmmm... "Let's hope he doesn't start rambling about Pro Wrestling and Ginger Lynn again." John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 All that tells me is that promotion styles can be similar in two fields that are different. You can compare Dana White to Vince McMahon, which Dave does, and I think has merit. But comparing wrestling to MMA is different from comparing a wrestling promoter to an MMA promoter. If that's the only point being made, you can also compare concert promoters to wrestling promoters, or circus promoters to wrestling promoters. But it doesn't mean that concerts and circuses are pro wrestling. Sometimes, the comparisons in promoting are taken to the next level when they shouldn't be, and it's weird and wrong when people start comparing Tito Ortiz to Ric Flair or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Loss is totally right there with everything he said and until they manipulate finishes to their favor it isn't pro wrestling. Just that simple. One of my favorite Meltz/Chico talking points regarding the MMA = pro wrestling deal is when they rip fighters for not being great promos or not knowing how to "do business" outside the ring such as Rashad Evans wanting to fight actual contenders instead of a bigger name. Why even have contender rankings then if they don't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 "Let's hope he (John) doesn't start rambling about Pro Wrestling and (how much he enjoyed watching) Ginger Lynn (while he played with himself) again." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 It's funny that I never mentioned playing with myself in the threads but Dylan keeps projecting that into what I wrote. You seem to obsess about my cock, Dylan. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 It's funny that I never mentioned playing with myself in the threads but Dylan keeps projecting that into what I wrote. You seem to obsess about my cock, Dylan. John Sure John. I'm sure you "loved" watching Ginger "take it up the ass" for poorly artistic/aesthetic reasons. My mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I find it telling that the members of this board could have this discussion: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...c=5645&st=0 Without anyone obsessing about the poster's jerking off. Yet I draw an analogy between to Our Hero Ric and Ginger Lynn, and you start obsessing about an image in your head of me wanking. It's a bit like folks looking at Bix's old Fantastics sig.file picture and thinking Bix wanted to be double teamed by Tommy & Bobby. It's projecting. I'm sorry you keep thinking about my cock so much, Dylan. If it's troubling your so greatly, you might want to seek out some professional help with it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 John I'm quite certain no one other than you has ever seen your cock let alone "obsessed" over it. You have proven yourself totally incapable of maintaining friendships (oh wait! I'm no selling Hoback! Time to throw this post on the woodpile right?) and I doubt you've ever kissed a woman, so the fact that you are a long time and heavy consumer of porn isn't surprising. Hell I'd be willing to be that most of the denizens of this site have watched porn more than a few times in their life and as I noted some time back I have no problem with the porn v. wrestling comparison. I do however find it disturbing that you felt the need to go into graphic detail about how much you enjoyed a certain adult performer and the various "moves" she "brought to the table" (hey look I bit your analogy there!) on a public message board. The fact that you feel the need to bring up your allegedly witty Ginger Lynn comparison non-stop is far more trollish than anything OJ has done in this thread despite your clever little pic and the only reason I even felt the need to respond to you in the first place. The fact that you think talking about your mastabutory fantasies with a group of people you've never met isn't strange is bizarre to say the least and would certainly qualify as perverted in almost every context. The fact that you are pretending that your "love" for watching Ginger Lynn getting "fucked up the ass" is totally disconnected from these fantasies just makes you a dumb shit as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Wow, this took an unnecessary turn that isn't going to go anywhere. Meltzer posted this on his board and it made me respect his position more. "Yeah, given that the Obsever gets more poll responses for UFC PPVs shows than anything except Mania certainly tells you the readership isn't interested in MMA. Check the year end award responses, poll results, etc. Look at the numbers, see what the numbers say, then come back to me with business conclusions as opposed to "I don't like MMA, therefore none of the readership cares." MMA polls on this site (except for Ultimate Fighter TV show being below Raw every week in responses) always beat pro wrestling polls. UFC PPV poll numbers always beat pro wrestling poll numbers. However, traffic is bigger for WWE PPV days then UFC days, but how many people care about CHIKARA, ROH or TNA really? But I should drop covering UFC and devote more space to Dragon Gate USA. Think about that for a second if you actually believe that." From a business perspective, you can't blame Dave for the MMA stuff in the WON. If my ability to support my family was dependent on the long-term health of the pro wrestling industry, I'd be having a lot of sleepless nights right now. Expanding into MMA is absolutely a good move for him personally and makes his future a lot more secure. He seems to be hinting at that here, and I can't blame him. The MMA = Pro Wrestling argument is tiresome but I can't blame him anymore for the MMA content each week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Iron Chad Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Nope, considering Whacko was a Hitler short of the useless trifecta of board responses (he covered can't get laid and no friends) it's clearly OJ's cock Whacko is obsessed with since he ran to defend his boo with insults and no legitimate argument. Stay classy, Whacko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Nope, considering Whacko was a Hitler short of the useless trifecta of board responses (he covered can't get laid and no friends) it's clearly OJ's cock Whacko is obsessed with since he ran to defend his boo with insults and no legitimate argument. Stay classy, Whacko. And a run-in from the tOA peanut gallery! Shocking, though there aren't enough *Big Ass Laughs* to make this a five star post and you lack the out of context quote at the end as well. I must say I did chuckle at being accused of running in to protect OJ (who I don't even agree with on the issue at hand or most things for that matter) when you have decided to grace us with your presence for the sole purpose of showcasing one of John's few remaining e-friends. But hey, I guess someone has to fill the void left by Frank Jewett right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 From a business perspective, you can't blame Dave for the MMA stuff in the WON. If my ability to support my family was dependent on the long-term health of the pro wrestling industry, I'd be having a lot of sleepless nights right now. Expanding into MMA is absolutely a good move for him personally and makes his future a lot more secure. He seems to be hinting at that here, and I can't blame him. The MMA = Pro Wrestling argument is tiresome but I can't blame him anymore for the MMA content each week. Dave seems to confuse "My Readers Interest In MMA Coverage" with "MMA = Pro Wrestling". Is anyone suggesting that Dave stop covering MMA? I mean, other than way back in the day when people like Scherer thought he shouldn't cover MMA? I cringe when I see Dave covering Boxing, and while I may have in the past (though I don't recall doing it) and may in the future joke about it, I certainly wouldn't tell Dave that he shouldn't cover Boxing in the WON if he feels like it. On the MMA side, it's likely that pretty much everyone has accepted Dave covers it. Long ago. "Last decade" long ago. I actually enjoy the coverage, even if I don't agree with him on all things MMA. Where Dave is confused: We can still think he should cover MMA, and actually like his MMA coverage, while at the same time think he's nuts to constantly run with the "MMA = Pro Wrestling" and "MMA Like Pro Wrestling" theme. Criticism of the Part doesn't always mean that we think the Whole is worthless. One wishes Dave wouldn't always be so defensive and come across as thinking it's a house of cards: if we don't by one card, his whole house falls. I don't think MMA is Pro Wrestling. I don't watch MMA every month through Pro Wrestling Eyes, anymore than I watched the Steelers-Broncos on MNF through Pro Wrestling Eyes. But I do think the WON should keep covering MMA. It's a useful addition to the $$$ I fork over every week for it, especially considering how little I get out of the normal weekly Pro Wrestling coverage. Call it a "value added" part of the WON, and these days it's a decent amount of the value. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Transitioning from from obsessing about my cock to obsessing about me getting laid. I'm impressed, Dylan. John, who is going to have to tell his friends that they're not actually my friends because Dylan said so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 All that tells me is that promotion styles can be similar in two fields that are different. You can compare Dana White to Vince McMahon, which Dave does, and I think has merit. But comparing wrestling to MMA is different from comparing a wrestling promoter to an MMA promoter. If that's the only point being made, you can also compare concert promoters to wrestling promoters, or circus promoters to wrestling promoters. But it doesn't mean that concerts and circuses are pro wrestling. Sometimes, the comparisons in promoting are taken to the next level when they shouldn't be, and it's weird and wrong when people start comparing Tito Ortiz to Ric Flair or whatever. Well, we'll have to leave it at that. I hear what you're saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 From a business perspective, you can't blame Dave for the MMA stuff in the WON. If my ability to support my family was dependent on the long-term health of the pro wrestling industry, I'd be having a lot of sleepless nights right now. Expanding into MMA is absolutely a good move for him personally and makes his future a lot more secure. He seems to be hinting at that here, and I can't blame him. The MMA = Pro Wrestling argument is tiresome but I can't blame him anymore for the MMA content each week. Dave seems to confuse "My Readers Interest In MMA Coverage" with "MMA = Pro Wrestling". Is anyone suggesting that Dave stop covering MMA? I mean, other than way back in the day when people like Scherer thought he shouldn't cover MMA? I cringe when I see Dave covering Boxing, and while I may have in the past (though I don't recall doing it) and may in the future joke about it, I certainly wouldn't tell Dave that he shouldn't cover Boxing in the WON if he feels like it. On the MMA side, it's likely that pretty much everyone has accepted Dave covers it. Long ago. "Last decade" long ago. I actually enjoy the coverage, even if I don't agree with him on all things MMA. Where Dave is confused: We can still think he should cover MMA, and actually like his MMA coverage, while at the same time think he's nuts to constantly run with the "MMA = Pro Wrestling" and "MMA Like Pro Wrestling" theme. Criticism of the Part doesn't always mean that we think the Whole is worthless. One wishes Dave wouldn't always be so defensive and come across as thinking it's a house of cards: if we don't by one card, his whole house falls. I don't think MMA is Pro Wrestling. I don't watch MMA every month through Pro Wrestling Eyes, anymore than I watched the Steelers-Broncos on MNF through Pro Wrestling Eyes. But I do think the WON should keep covering MMA. It's a useful addition to the $$$ I fork over every week for it, especially considering how little I get out of the normal weekly Pro Wrestling coverage. Call it a "value added" part of the WON, and these days it's a decent amount of the value. John Amen, Dave covers MMA as good as anyone and that pisses off some people because he covers it too well and not defending his time to other subjects like lucha, Japan. and US indies but that's their problem. MMA is hot right now and Dave who has been covering MMA forever is well equipped to do his job. It's just the pro wrestling theory is flawed and he has lately used that theory for other sports as well such as boxing and football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I'm not a fan of aggressive message board moderating at all. That said, I kinda feel like the jdw post about Ginger Lynn should be off limits. I don't want to "lay down the law", as much as I really want to encourage that topic to just die. Please? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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