California legislature passes AB5 gig-work bill, which could turn contractors into employees

[NintendoLogic]

I do believe that someone who works full-time for a billion-dollar corporation should receive benefits and a pension, yes.

[JerryvonKramer]

1 hour ago, NintendoLogic said:

I do believe that someone who works full-time for a billion-dollar corporation should receive benefits and a pension, yes.

So let's use Ted DiBiase Jr as the example, since I mentioned him.

He was a mid-ranking talent who worked for Vince between 2007 and 2013. He's estimated to have made around $4 million in that time. I mean the heart just bleeds doesn't it.

 

Who exactly do you think gets helped by this? You introduce that policy and then it's a lot harder for Ted Jr to give up his spot and harder to get him out of the door. So you compound the advantage of a guy who is already a multi-millionaire at the expense of someone else who has to spend longer on the indie scene.

 

I don't understand why you support this policy given that this is exactly what would happen.

 

[NintendoLogic]

1 hour ago, JerryvonKramer said:

So let's use Ted DiBiase Jr as the example, since I mentioned him.

He was a mid-ranking talent who worked for Vince between 2007 and 2013. He's estimated to have made around $4 million in that time. I mean the heart just bleeds doesn't it.

$4 million in career earnings sounds like an absurdly generous estimate for a late 2000s-early 2010s WWE midcarder, but let's go with it. That averages out to about $667k a year. Once you subtract taxes, road expenses, and health insurance, his actual take-home pay would have been closer to half that. That's not a hand-to-mouth existence by any means, but it's far from being set for life.

Quote

Who exactly do you think gets helped by this? You introduce that policy and then it's a lot harder for Ted Jr to give up his spot and harder to get him out of the door. So you compound the advantage of a guy who is already a multi-millionaire at the expense of someone else who has to spend longer on the indie scene.

WWE is set to receive a billion dollars in guaranteed TV money. They can easily afford to sign all the indy guys they want and pay Ted to stay home if need be. They could choose not to, but that would amount to handing talent to the opposition.

[...TG]

I've long thought that WWE could gain an easy advantage over potential rivals and head off demands for a union (not that they really exist) by converting wrestlers to full-time employees. They obviously have the money even before the Fox deal, and doing so would either dramatically increase AEW's cost structure or give them a huge PR hit by not following suit.

From what I understand, this bill seems targeted at Uber/Lyft/etc. gig-economy type of companies as opposed to WWE specifically, but who knows.

 

[FMKK]

The argument is so clearly about the fact that WWE expects its talent to behave as employees but doesn't give them employee contracts. I don't see what Parv doesn't get about that or how you square that circle if your only argument is that midcarders you aren't keen on get to stick around a bit longer.

Theres still nothing to stop WWE just not renewing his contract once it's up if they don't want him anymore. That's what they're doing now anyway. It isn't like they're releasing anyone these days. And as for the money, the $4 million estimate is a lot of money but realistically, he's not going to earn close to that ever again. Spread that out across his whole life and it's not as lucrative.

[JerryvonKramer]

Can people lay out to me how well this worked for WCW in 2000? Thanks.

[Migs]

7 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

Can people lay out to me how well this worked for WCW in 2000? Thanks.

a) They weren't employees, either.

b) WWE pays talent 8% of revenues. Estimates have treating the wrestlers as employees getting them up to about 12-13%. Major sports pay talent ~50% of revenues. Somehow I think they'll be fine.

[JerryvonKramer]

Guess I must’ve dreamt all this then https://www.thesportster.com/wrestling/ridiculous-wcw-contracts-that-sank-the-company/

[Migs]

5 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

Guess I must’ve dreamt all this then https://www.thesportster.com/wrestling/ridiculous-wcw-contracts-that-sank-the-company/

Yes, there are highly paid independent contractors.

[FMKK]

WCW would have been fine as long as they kept selling tickets and PPVs. Blaming that on the workers being well paid as opposed to management incompetence is ridiculous.

[JerryvonKramer]

Okay, so let’s pretend you give the workers the choice between a four-year guaranteed contract for millions like those listed or a salaried position for let’s say 60% of the total plus pension and benefits with no end date, how many workers choose the former and how many choose the latter? And then beyond that which sorts of workers do you think go for A or B?

 

What you really want to do is remove choice A (from workers’ point of view high reward but high risk) from the table entirely in exchange for B (lower reward, lower risk).

 

Why do you want to do this?

 

 

 

[FMKK]

Just now, JerryvonKramer said:

Okay, so let’s pretend you give the workers the choice between a four-year guaranteed contract for millions like those listed or a salaried position for let’s say 60% or the total plus pension and benefits, how many workers choose the former and how many choose the latter And then beyond that which sorts of workers do you think go for A or B?

 

What you really want to do is remove choice A (from workers’ point of view high reward but high risk) from the table entirely in exchange for B (lower reward, lower risk).

 

Why do you want to do this?

 

 

 

There is currently no choice so no one is removing anything

[JerryvonKramer]

You would effectively be removing choice A by outlawing that form of contract.

 

You end up with a roster of Baron Sciclinas grinding out the years to get to their pension.

[FMKK]

6 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

You would effectively be removing choice A by outlawing that form of contract.

 

You end up with a roster of Baron Sciclinas grinding out the years to get to their pension.

Since when did the law stipulate lifetime contracts had to be awarded to every wrestler employed by WWE?

[sek69]

It wasn't the contracts that sank WCW, that is the same old FUD put out by the Russo types and their minions. The company was making big profits paying guys those same giant contracts, it was only when they were no longer able to stop stepping on their own dicks creatively that the bottom fell out.  The contracts only became a problem when they could no longer book a show that could fill the smallest of arenas. 

It's a really odd argument to be all "how dare you think treating employees like employees is a good thing" when that's how it works in nearly every other major company of the size WWE is. 

Having guaranteed contracts with benefits hasn't killed any major "real sport", and it's not damaging the entertainment industry either. I fail to see how being compensated fairly and being treated like the important revenue generating part of the company they are will suddenly lead to wrestling being dominated by guys just punching a clock. That sounds like some shit you'd hear in an anti Union propaganda video at Wal-mart.

[NintendoLogic]

WCW in 2000 would have still lost money even if every wrestler on the roster had worked for free.

[JerryvonKramer]

Much much bigger companies than the WWE and much much bigger industries than wrestling have fallen to this sort of thing in the past.

[sek69]

8 minutes ago, JerryvonKramer said:

Much much bigger companies than the WWE and much much bigger industries than wrestling have fallen to this sort of thing in the past.

Then they were poorly run if they couldn't stay in business and treat their employees like employees.  Or their business model depended on predatory practices that require them to pay workers as little as possible.

[C.S.]

6 hours ago, JerryvonKramer said:

You're essentially advocating giving Ted DiBiase Jr benefits and a pension in 2008 and us still being stuck with him on TV every week today.

Let's pretend DiBiase Jr. is on the scene now with a guaranteed contract. 

WWE has plenty of options. Sending him to NXT UK is one. He balks? He's in breach of contract. Boom, problem solved!

The fact that you don't realize WWE would find all sorts of ways to cover their ass and/or unload dead weight is surprising. 

[Herodes]

All workers should be entitled to benefits, health insurance, 401k whether it’s in a California or SADIQ KHANS LONDON!!!1!!1!! There should be no argument about that outside of the prisonplanet dweebs of this world and those who embrace anti-intellectualism

[sek69]

Not to mention WWE gets to have their cake and eat it too with the current system. They get to lock people in with contracts just to put them on a shelf so they can't make money for a competitor, while getting to treat them the same way legally as someone doing a side hustle for Uber. 

Perhaps having to treat people they sign as actual employees and not something to hoard wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. 

I mean, is signing Mike and Maria for $500K (each?) to do approximately jack shit any worse than JvK's scenario of Ted Jr on TV every week. At least him being on TV might lead to something. 

[JerryvonKramer]

2 hours ago, Herodes said:

All workers should be entitled to benefits, health insurance, 401k whether it’s in a California or SADIQ KHANS LONDON!!!1!!1!! There should be no argument about that outside of the prisonplanet dweebs of this world and those who embrace anti-intellectualism

The minimum wage is always zero and no one is entitled to a job. But I'm taking leave of this thread since you can't seem to debate it in a non-emotional way without calling names.

[sek69]

Ah yes, nothing like the "I'm taking leave of this thread you emotional cretins" tactic when your points all get blown the F up. 

[NintendoLogic]

It's worth pointing out that "not an argument" is a Stefan Molyneux catchphrase. When did JvK go full alt-right?

[Jesse Ewiak]

A quick note - form what I've read, the WWE wouldn't be subject to this, since they don't have an office or anything in the WWE. They'd be under Connecticut law, for this instance. The reason Uber or Lyft is on the hook is because not only is Uber/Lfyt HQ'd in Cali, so are their drivers.